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Unpopular Opinion Thread — Page 18

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SparkySywer said:

That show is downright unwatchable.

You’re no extra-terrestrial being fmalover, I think such huge differences of opinion are quite common in the Star Wars fandom. Think of how loved the prequels are by the current generation, while hated back in their day; or how fans generally think TLJ is either a masterpiece or the worst film ever made.

“Remember, the Force will be with you. Always.”

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I’ve been thinking about it and more and more I think that The Force Awakens was designed in part for those who decide to watch the series IV-VI first and then I-III. It’s the only logical reason why there’s back to back stories with another Death Star as it wouldn’t be quite as jarring as it would be if you watch them in sequence order. That and nostalgia but that’s another can of worms.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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I think you’re giving JJ too much credit in suggesting that the decision was driven by anything but an inability to construct these movies without world-ending threats. If he were in charge of Episode 8, I’m certain we would have gotten Death Stars four movies in a row.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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NeverarGreat said:

I think you’re giving JJ too much credit in suggesting that the decision was driven by anything but an inability to construct these movies without world-ending threats. If he were in charge of Episode 8, I’m certain we would have gotten Death Stars four movies in a row.

Oh, I agree completely actually. I do think that overall the story of The Force Awakens was structured in a way to make it aligned with the Original Trilogy after one watches the Prequels due to the backlash they got at the time.

“This will begin to make things right” is clearly directed at them.

The Sequels aren’t so much Sequels but responses to the criticisms of the Prequels. Ironically it failed miserably as there’s barely anything new and connective to them that makes it feel like a nine part saga. Only really The Last Jedi comes close to bridging the gap in a meaningful way, while misunderstanding important context in other aspects with things such as Rey being a Nobody. The Rise of Skywalker just doesn’t understand context at all and just added things because it fits a meme or whatever it’s trying to say.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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The Rise of Skywalker just doesn’t understand context at all and just added things because it fits a meme or whatever it’s trying to say.

Oh come now, let’s not be too harsh. Rise of Skywalker is a deeply profound, well thought out sequel. Without it, how else would we have known the earth-shattering truth that they fly now.

They even repeat it three times so you know it’s important.

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The original Saga is i like to think in its own pocket universe it includes, Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi the original cuts only. And it ends on an upbeat ending with our heroes on Endor.

Then you have Universe B which includes the Special Editions and Prequels which are Lucas So called Canon 1-6 Saga of Darth Vader.

Then you have Universe C which is the Disney canon and its the Rey Saga 1-9, or Palpatine Saga.

Lucas sequels would have likely continued Universe B canon and not the OT canon. They would have indeed been a sequel most likely to those movies.

I would have liked a genuine sequel to Return of the Jedi which was an organic extension of the Original trilogy, which to be honest is kind of hard to imagine with all the EU that is out there but i wanted an original story. Not lets cut and paste the EU, make Luke without a wife or son and a prequel Jedi, and Darth Maul and some midichlorians. And rip off the entire arc of the EU with Han as a leader and a General until he gives up his commission, and Leia as President or Chancellor. And mix in Prequel Yoda training Babies but instead insert Luke. Along with Darth Maul being the Prince Xizor controlling the underworld its not original.

The only positive i think is at least Luke was a wise teacher in those treatments and somewhat recognizable, They actually established a new republic and Luke was successful at reviving the Jedi Order. But with the Sith returning with Maul its undoes Lucas own chosen one prophecy of ending the Sith. Feels like a pretty pathetic and desperate attempt at just winging a third trilogy. I’m sure there are people who would have loved a mix and match of EU, with Filoni Star Wars and prequel for the Star Wars sequels i’m not one of them.

Admittedly the Disney trilogy has its own legion of problems. But at least i can watch and enjoy them. The effects are good, the cinematography isn’t janky and the acting and dialog are excellent while the story and characters might suffer from being half baked at least it has the general flavor of a Star Wars film i.e. the OT. I’ll give Episode I at least an honorable mention it had good cinematography when it wasn’t cgi and felt like a Star Wars film. I’ll also give Hayden an honorable mention he was good in episode III and brought genuine pathos to the role of Anakin. Something a much better actor in Adam Driver isn’t able to do with Kylo Ren.

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JadedSkywalker said:

The original Saga is i like to think in its own pocket universe it includes, Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi the original cuts only. And it ends on an upbeat ending with our heroes on Endor.

Then you have Universe B which includes the Special Editions and Prequels which are Lucas So called Canon 1-6 Saga of Darth Vader.

Then you have Universe C which is the Disney canon and its the Rey Saga 1-9, or Palpatine Saga.

I completely agree with this.

As for George’s sequel trilogy treatments, I agree that bringing Darth Maul back as the main antagonist would have been an awful idea (if that’s what George had ended up sticking with). It would have been extremely confusing to the general audience, and so much would have happened outside of the movies that Maul would essentially be a completely different character from who he was in TPM. And while TCW and the EU were able to make Maul into a more interesting character, he’s simply not main villain material for a whole trilogy.

The thing about the EU is that, despite being very much a mixed bag, it offers a huge amount of events, characters, and concepts that could be played around with to tell new stories. It just seems like a waste to me not to take advantage of that massive fount of source material, grabbing the most well received aspects of it and ditching the worst of it, much like Marvel does with its movies. When you look at the EU and the reception of each of its stories, you can get a clearer sense of what works for fans and what doesn’t in the post-RotJ era.

Part of why I tend to be more lenient toward the prequels is because the prequels’ plot was much more constrained based on what needed to take place within just three movies. And there was little to no source material on which to base it (not that George would have used it, of course, but I digress). The sequels, on the other hand, had a more or less blank slate on which to tell any story they wanted, and a plethora of source material to draw inspiration from.

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I was indifferent to Darth Maul coming back at first but as I’ve thought more on it - I like it. I think he could work as the big bad as he’d be the connection to an era lost. He’d also know the history of the Clone Wars to be able to reveal the mystery of Sifo-Dyas and he’d have a natural rivalry with Luke as both were connected to Obi-Wan. He’d also know of the potential of the Skywalker family. In order to move on the galaxy has to move forward from the webs created by Palpatine and his successor who learned from him.

Where was he during the Galactic Civil War? Fair enough. He could’ve been imprisoned under Palpatine or hiding until the right time to bring forth the crime syndicates and gangs. The opportunity opened up with the death of Jabba and the fall of the Empire. A true power vacuum.

I think also as long as it’s Anakin’s grandchildren defeating him then it’s not necessarily a bad thing to sort of alter what happened as it would still be the family who at the end of the day defeated the last link.

Leia becoming Supreme Chancellor makes so much sense. In The Phantom Menace we see Padme give away democracy by voting for no confidence and for it to come full circle to it returning with her daughter as the Supreme Chancellor.

Luke restoring the Jedi Order with or without the 50 to 100 surviving Jedi from Order 66 truly feels like its connecting to threads established.

It’s hard to say what Han’s role would’ve been. All we know for certain is he died in George’s Episode VII too.

All and all I think George’s Sequels feel like a natural progression and like they took in account all of Star Wars instead of just three films as the Disney trilogy tried doing.

I also feel the Prequels don’t get their due respect with cinematography. George made it look so easy but they’re truly beautiful pictures to look at. They’re shot more like documentaries instead of typical cinema. The Sequels - The Force Awakens in particular is jarring how jumpy it is and how much it limits what we see. There’s no breathing room at all and any chance to feel atmosphere is quickly cut. Only Rey’s montage comes close to giving any sense of scale but Jakku feels like miles in the same location and not Tatooine that’s filled with scale. You have the Lars Homestead in one direction and in the other you have the Tusken Raiders Camp that took time to get to. Not just two minutes.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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Stardust1138 said:

I also feel the Prequels don’t get their due respect with cinematography. George made it look so easy but they’re truly beautiful pictures to look at. They’re shot more like documentaries instead of typical cinema. The Sequels - The Force Awakens in particular is jarring how jumpy it is and how much it limits what we see. There’s no breathing room at all and any chance to feel atmosphere is quickly cut. Only Rey’s montage comes close to giving any sense of scale but Jakku feels like miles in the same location and not Tatooine that’s filled with scale. You have the Lars Homestead in one direction and in the other you have the Tuskin Raiders Camp that took time to get to. Not just two minutes.

Even when taking into account that AotC and RotS were shot on early digital cameras, and despite the clean art nouveau aesthetic which contrasts with the OT’s rough utilitarian aesthetic, all three PT movies still look and feel like Star Wars.

I get no such feeling from any of the Disney era movies. Rogue One in particular, which takes place shortly before the start of the OT, has all the sets and costumes to fit with the timeline, but the worlds don’t feel as lived in as they did in the OT. The ST desperately tried to ape everything about the OT looks-wise, but something doesn’t feel right about them.

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fmalover said:

Even when taking into account that AotC and RotS were shot on early digital cameras, and despite the clean art nouveau aesthetic which contrasts with the OT’s rough utilitarian aesthetic, all three PT movies still look and feel like Star Wars.

I get no such feeling from any of the Disney era movies. Rogue One in particular, which takes place shortly before the start of the OT, has all the sets and costumes to fit with the timeline, but the worlds don’t feel as lived in as they did in the OT. The ST desperately tried to ape everything about the OT looks-wise, but something doesn’t feel right about them.

They do. There used to be a great video on YouTube of all six playing at the same time. It’s a shame Disney took it down as it showed how they truly blended together seamlessly and visually as a collective whole.

They also were shot in the same style. The camera work in the Disney films is different and doesn’t fit the established camera work. The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi deviated the most but not too much as they were still very much in George’s control.

This video with Rick McCallum addresses a taste of it:

https://youtu.be/EjqN-LVJVrs

Rogue One funnily enough is the only one I think that comes the closest to getting close to scale. In particular on Jedha. It’s not perfect but there’s at least a sense of scale and distance between places on the world. The Last Jedi maybe with Canto Bight but not fully.

It’s I think because there’s no signs of progression. Everything is designed to give us feelings of we’re watching the Original Trilogy without the sense of scale or understanding why said location was important. That’s why the Lars Homestead at the end of The Rise of Skywalker feels so hollow. It doesn’t understand the contexts of the central characters it connects to. Anakin didn’t like sand, was a slave, and lost his mother on Tatooine. Luke couldn’t wait to leave after his Aunt and Uncle passed away and promised to never return. He only did to rescue Han. Leia was made a slave to Jabba. Why would any of them want to be connected back to Tatooine in the end? For that matter, if the story began anywhere it’s on Naboo. It only ended on Tatooine because of nostalgia in the contexts given. That’s one of the main problems with the Sequel Trilogy. It plays things beat for beat most of the time without understanding the context of why certain things happened as they did to begin with.

The same could be said for the world building. We’ve seen these planets before - Yavin IV and D’Qar. We’ve seen these designs and aesthetics before like with Unkar’s Thugs and the Tusken Raiders. X-Wings and TIE Fighters. There’s no progression and it feels as though the galaxy never changed in the span of thirty years. It feels like there was a stalemate.

The Prequels also had heart and weren’t designed as exercises of remember this or by a committee. They had a singular vision and this was for better or worse depending on who you ask.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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For all the hatred Canto Bight gets, it is precisely the one time the ST feels aesthetically like a natural progression from the OT.

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I watched the end of Phantom Menace on television and i found it to be quite enjoyable, except for CGI Yoda that was a disgrace it didn’t match the other footage. They followed up with Attack of the Clones and boy that was awful. Its indefensible how bad it is. I feel bad for Natalie and Hayden they were trying their best, but the rest of the movie is junk. Even the Obi Wan stuff was terrible this time i watched it. Used to kind of like the detective aspect of OBI Wan in this movie, but its just baffling and dumb now.

I kind of understand why this is rated the worst Star Wars movie ever, and no it isn’t the Last Jedi.

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If Force Sensitivity was a thing, why does Vader say this so casually? Why would he just kind of note “Hmm, the Force is strong with this one” and not flip shit that you just discovered someone with lots of midichlorians?

Checkmate atheists

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JadedSkywalker said:

I watched the end of Phantom Menace on television and i found it to be quite enjoyable, except for CGI Yoda that was a disgrace it didn’t match the other footage. They followed up with Attack of the Clones and boy that was awful. Its indefensible how bad it is. I feel bad for Natalie and Hayden they were trying their best, but the rest of the movie is junk. Even the Obi Wan stuff was terrible this time i watched it. Used to kind of like the detective aspect of OBI Wan in this movie, but its just baffling and dumb now.

I kind of understand why this is rated the worst Star Wars movie ever, and no it isn’t the Last Jedi.

On the opposite side of things I would say Attack of the Clones has only grown on me lately. It’s probably my fifth favourite Star Wars film at the moment. I think I enjoy how it’s more of a 30/40’s melodrama mixed with film noir. I also enjoy the pacing of the film. I love how it’s slower and meditative paced as it builds a very calm before the storm presence over it. The last moments of innocence if you will. There’s also lots of great underlying meaning in the imagery and dialogue. Like Coruscant becoming more commercial and Ki-Adi-Mundi remarking that Dooku is a “political idealist and not a murderer”. He turned out to be a murderer and the whole Clone Wars was indeed an “idealistic crusade” as Obi-Wan later told Luke. I enjoy the romance. One thing I find interesting is how Anakin displays very possessive qualities from being detached from feeling his emotions due to the absence of and fear over something could be happening to his mother. As well as missing Padme. He struggles with unconditional love and letting go. It shows where he differs from Luke. One seeks pleasure while the other seeks joy. That’s not to say there’s not moments where Anakin doesn’t show compassionate love. He just tries to force it when it loses its highest flame and we know he loves Padme very much but not in a healthy way. Unfortunately Padme chose the wrong guy for her and it had dire consequences on the galaxy. However we can definitely see how they both truly love each other. Obi-Wan’s investigation is also filled with potent imagery. The Clone and Separatist Armies are both being manufactured right before his very eyes is the most notable. All together it’s far from perfect but it’s still very good. I’d even say at times it can be great.

For me the title for worse Star Wars film belongs to The Force Awakens.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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SparkySywer said:

If Force Sensitivity was a thing, why does Vader say this so casually? Why would he just kind of note “Hmm, the Force is strong with this one” and not flip shit that you just discovered someone with lots of midichlorians?

Checkmate atheists

At the time it was described as being something anyone could be weak or strong with, but actual training was what mattered. I think Gary Kurtz said it was like being a martial arts master, you gotta practice. Some people/families are stronger than others but it’s always there because all life generates it.

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Ignore the box around the text as I found the image on Reddit the other day but George said this very thing in Paul Duncan’s Original Trilogy book. Darth Vader/Anakin in the instance with Luke and even Qui-Gon when he told Shimi how unusually strong the Force is with Anakin didn’t realise how attuned they were as Midi-Chlorians are microscopic lifeforms and not the Force. It’s not until Qui-Gon took Anakin’s blood sample did he come to the conclusion that he must be the Chosen One.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas

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To start this post off, my unpopular opinion is that midi-chlorians are completely in line with the original film that everyone has the Force and the potential to use it. ROTJ arguably does a lot more harm. “The Force is strong in my family, my father has it, I have it and… my sister has it.” Now that’s talking about how it’s completely genetics. But it’s not just genetics, which we know it isn’t from the original Star Wars and later on the PT, even if certain families have more affinity for the Force than others. But the Force never was Harry Potter magic.

NeverarGreat said:

Exactly. The Force can be with anyone at any time; microscopic life forms in the blood are a reductive and quite frankly destructive element which constrains the Force to practical irrelevance in its own story.

I never saw it that way, personally. And I doubt George does. From TPM:

ANAKIN: Master, sir, I heard Yoda talking about midi-chlorians. I’ve been wondering…what are midi-chlorians?
QUI-GON: Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that resides within all living cells.
ANAKIN: They live inside me?
QUI-GON: Inside your cells, yes. And we are symbionts with them.
ANAKIN: Symbionts?
QUI-GON: Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you’ll hear them speaking to you.
QUI-GON: Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force. When you learn to quiet your mind, you’ll hear them speaking to you.

So what he’s saying is that midi-chlorians are what make life possible and that there’s several midi-chlorians inside every cell of every living being (kinda like what Yoda tells Luke in TESB, no?), and that they’re a bridge between the person and the Force. If people have more, then they’re more likely to become strong in the Force. If they have less, they could still become strong but possibly never as strong as someone else that just has more affinity.

I think it’s mostly a way of “quantifying talent”. Think of it like learning an instrument. Some people just are more talented than others, but if one wishes and works incredibly hard for it, they can absolutely be very good too. But some people are just naturals, and the midi-chlorians was a way to tell the audience that Anakin’s objectively the kid with the most Force potential ever, almost a freak. Not the most poetic way, but still effective and I don’t see how it betrays the script of the original movie.

Heck, one of the big issues with PT Jedi is how they’re basically on this ivory tower being total elitist assholes that train only those that have the potential to be strong, leaving them no say in the matter - as opposed to picking newcomers based on their character and desire and will to do good. No wonder they’re this corrupt and arrogant institution.

But yeah, according to TPM, even Han Solo has midi-chlorians (otherwise he wouldn’t even be alive!) and if he chooses to, he could hone his skills and become a Jedi.

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We’re probably getting away from unpopular opinions, so my thoughts on the subject can be found here.

More to the thread, I think it’s still somewhat unpopular to think of TROS as worse than AOTC, at best most people probably view them as similarly bad. But they’re wrong. TROS is the worst. By a lot.

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The Mustafar duel is overrated. About halfway through the fight, it stops focusing on what’s going on between the characters and becomes overly focused on the visual spectacle of the location itself. And of course, the whole part of them swinging from cables and riding on a river of lava is way too over-the-top.

I think George knew it was going to be his last Star Wars movie, so he probably wanted to go out with a bang by having the final battle be really grand and flashy, but he overdid it. The final duel in RotJ didn’t need to be flashy, because it was focused on the characters and their internal struggles rather than the environment they were fighting in.

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Also, a lot of the visual spectacle gets lost in compression because of the constant particle effects.

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I love the Mustafar lightsaber duel.

If there’s one lightsaber duel everyone seems to love but I personally think is the most overrated, it would be the one between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul, way too choreographed.

If I had to pick an all-time favourite lightsaber duel, it would be Anakin and Obi-Wan vs Dooku in RotS. It’s brief, simple and elegantly choreographed.

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Anakin starting out at nine years old was the right call as his innocence really reflects the childlike wonder of the story told and of a time before the galaxy was put in deeper despair.

The Phantom Menace would be looked upon with more understanding and needed as part of the narrative if George had made his Sequels.

Anakin’s origins, Darth Maul being introduced, who the Hutts were and what their disconnect from the Republic was, and other plot lines all connect to his plans.

"Pleasure’s fun. It’s great, but you can’t keep it going forever; just accept the fact that it’s here and it’s gone, and maybe then again, it will come back, and you’ll get to do it again. Joy lasts forever. Pleasure is purely self-centered. It’s all about your pleasure: it’s about you. It’s a selfish, self-centered emotion, that is created by a self-centered motive of greed. Joy is compassion. Joy is giving yourself to somebody else, or something else. And it’s a kind of thing that is, in its subtlety and lowness, much more powerful than pleasure. You get hung up on pleasure; you’re doomed. If you pursue joy; you will find everlasting happiness.” - George Lucas