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Unpopular Opinion Thread — Page 16

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SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

SparkySywer said:

The film misinterprets basic concepts of the Jedi and the Force … acting like the Jedi are meant to be pacifists.

I don’t think TLJ is the one misinterpreting basic concepts of the Jedi and the Force.

That’s not what Yoda meant in context. The Jedi are meant to defend the innocent, and that often involves striking down those who would harm others. ANH has Obi-Wan cutting off an assailant’s arm. They absolutely are willing to resort to the use of force to fight someone who threatens innocents. That’s why they carry lightsabers in the first place. This notion that a “true” Jedi doesn’t actually even use his saber to defeat someone is a misinterpretation by Rian Johnson of what the Jedi actually are. Striking down Kylo, or at least genuinely trying to talk him down, could have saved countless lives and ended the war. This notion of a Jedi being purely pacifist never reflected George’s vision or intention. Rian doesn’t know Star Wars better than its creator. In fact, I think there are a lot of people who understand Star Wars better than Rian does.

Called it in the inb4!

What? Look, I don’t want to go through the motions of this argument again, so here’s a flowchart that debunks the whole “Jedi are pacifists” thing, which really is just an invention of Rian Johnson’s imagination.

Jedi don’t initiate violence, but defending the most vulnerable often means actually using that laser sword on your belt.

The PT has massive amounts of worldbuilding. The sheer volume of worlds, species, factions, and cultures introduced

Like what? Like who? The closest thing we get to that I can think of is that they have some new alien designs, but that’s art design again, not worldbuilding.

in the PT provided so much fertile ground for new stories to tell and history to flesh out.

The EU picking up the slack for the PT does not make the PT good. The EU doing worldbuilding does not mean the PT had any, in fact it just highlights the sheer lack of worldbuilding in the PT.

We finally got to see the Republic

We get to see the Republic is a really shallow ripoff of the United States government made by someone whose understanding of the US government clearly didn’t go beyond, like, 7th grade civics class. We don’t know anything about how it functions other than that the Chancellor is the leader of the executive and that the Senate has some legislative authority, and there is a third branch that is never relevant, despite us being told it’s supposed to be in, like, 2 lines?

Compare, like, literally any other fantasy Republic, or even any other fantasy government. There’s so much more interesting nuance that could be here, but is ditched for a really shallow-ass allegory about how Bush did 9/11 or some shit.

Maybe it could be said that spending too much time on the functionality of the Republic would be a bad idea and detract from the story. I’d probably agree. But that’s a justification for the prequels’ lack of worldbuilding, the fact of the matter is that there is a lack of worldbuilding, and the little bit that is there is downright uncreative.

We got to see the different corporations that formed the CIS.

Aside from the Trade Federation, we get name drops for the different corporations that formed the CIS. That’s it.

You don’t even have to leave Star Wars to see this done right, compare the depth the CIS gets in the EU and TCW to the complete lack thereof in the prequels.

Even the Trade Federation is literally just the GOP. They’re not even trying to hide it. Nute Gingrich + Ronald Raygun = Nute Gunray. While I hate the Republican Party, the Trade Federation as a criticism has the depth of tin foil. We don’t know anything about their beliefs, private or public, we don’t know anything about why their policies are bad, we just know that they’re evil and greedy and mean and they’re in league with George Walker Hitler.

As an instance of worldbuilding, they have even less depth than tin foil.

The fall of the Republic is not a straight allegory, least of all for the Bush administration or 9/11, though it was accused of being one. You’re just dismissing all the political worldbuilding by saying it’s ripped straight from real life, when it’s simply inspired by real world history, like any other worldbuilding. The Trade Federation is not the GOP. If anything, they have much more in common with groups like the East India Company. The prequels wouldn’t have been able to go into exhaustive detail about the motivations and ideologies of every faction in the Republic, since these are still ultimately movies meant to be watched by kids. You can argue that they should have spelled out some of these details better, and that the worldbuilding lacked depth, but it’s clear that there are many conflicting factions and ideologies at play in this galaxy, so you can’t say that the world lacks breadth.

We see how the corruption in the well-meaning Republic paved the way for Palpatine’s rise to power. The steps are there, plainly visible. The state of the galaxy is established (something the sequels seem deliberately vague on), and the galaxy as a whole feels expansive and diverse, rather than just a series of action movie sets. We finally get a sense of a full-scale war being fought among many different worlds, with different species on opposite sides of it. I wish we had gotten more of that, but what we did get was quite vast, if shallow.

The prequels actually added something significant to the story.

I really have to disagree hard on this. The Last Jedi feels like an actual contribution to Star Wars. It developed on interesting characters introduced in TFA, and gave Luke a character arc I was interested in. It contributed to the Star Wars mythos, and I kind of think you have to ignore the whole movie to say there wasn’t a lot of passion and care put into this movie or that it didn’t add anything significant to the story.

I’d say the opposite. You’d have to ignore large portions of the movie to claim that it was a product of love and care for the mythos. The film goes out of its way to debase and trivialize what came before. It repeatedly trips over its own messages (i.e. the message about whether self-sacrifice to defeat an enemy is good or bad). And it’s filled with so much bloat that’s not deep or cerebral in the slightest and drags the movie down from whatever lofty heights it was aiming for.

But a lot of criticisms made against the ST seem to be because they weren’t totally vapid. Especially ones having to do with Luke Skywalker.

There is a massive middle ground between “pathetic hobo Luke” and “invincible Force god Luke.” Luke in the OT was a great character not because of his power, but because of his kindness and compassion. He was the right person to restart the Jedi Order because of his wisdom and moral quality. TLJ doesn’t make Luke more interesting. It just removes all of Luke’s personality traits and surgically transfers them to Rey.

I don’t think the prequels were a straight cash grab, because it looks like there was actual effort put into the Phantom Menace. But overall we have:

-One movie with an actual story, but none of the events of this movie really end up being all that relevant, and it’s not even like this story is all that complex

-One movie that feels like it’s trying to be the setup to a new trilogy, but doesn’t have much of an interesting story of its own, and, you know, it’s actually Episode 2, and should be starting to wrap the story up.

-One movie that starts off by dropping all the setup done in the previous movie, farting around on Coruscant telling us exposition for over an hour, then acts out backstory we already knew from the OT (really inaccurately I might add), then goes on an ANH fanservice montage it didn’t earn or justify

Actually, we know behind the scenes that they kinda hard pressed the reset button after TPM, which is why pretty much nothing in TPM is relevant. I wonder if they also did that between AotC and RotS, although more of a soft press this time. Every single movie feels like the first movie in a prequel trilogy, but (believe it or not), they’re not all the first movie. So when the end of Revenge of the Sith rolls around, it feels like the story of an entire trilogy is crammed into the last 40ish minutes of the movie, and a ton of that time is devoted to overly long SFX sequences, not the actual story.

I’ll agree with you that the gap between TPM and AotC feels like a soft reset, but that can be largely attributed to the large time gap that was necessary in order to age up Anakin. AotC and RotS, on the other hand, actually are fairly well connected and feel mostly like a continuing story (with a missing middle film about the Clone Wars, which is what Episode II should have been). I disagree with this idea that RotS was any kind of reset. It had to cram a lot of plot in two hours, but it certainly doesn’t feel like the first film in a trilogy.

As for context to the OT characters, it’s so incredibly unclear that it doesn’t even really seem to matter. Mainly, Anakin’s reason for becoming Vader changed behind the scenes for all three movies, and even the final movie where it’s supposed to happen can’t seem to make up its mind on why.

No, it didn’t. Anakin’s reason for turning was already being set up in TPM.

“Afraid to lose her, hm? Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger…”

Anakin was especially vulnerable to the Dark Side because of his attachments, to his mother and to Padme, and his fear of losing those he loved. That was always intended to be the primary reason for his fall.

“I will be the most powerful Jedi ever. I will even learn to stop people from dying.”

“Fear of loss is a path to the Dark Side…Attachment leads to jealousy…Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose.”

You can argue it was sloppy, but the work George put in is all there. It was being built up to throughout the trilogy. George knew from the beginning how Anakin was going to fall. There was no mind-changing behind the scenes. It was definitely planned.

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Servii said:

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

SparkySywer said:

Servii said:

SparkySywer said:

The film misinterprets basic concepts of the Jedi and the Force … acting like the Jedi are meant to be pacifists.

I don’t think TLJ is the one misinterpreting basic concepts of the Jedi and the Force.

That’s not what Yoda meant in context. The Jedi are meant to defend the innocent, and that often involves striking down those who would harm others. ANH has Obi-Wan cutting off an assailant’s arm. They absolutely are willing to resort to the use of force to fight someone who threatens innocents. That’s why they carry lightsabers in the first place. This notion that a “true” Jedi doesn’t actually even use his saber to defeat someone is a misinterpretation by Rian Johnson of what the Jedi actually are. Striking down Kylo, or at least genuinely trying to talk him down, could have saved countless lives and ended the war. This notion of a Jedi being purely pacifist never reflected George’s vision or intention. Rian doesn’t know Star Wars better than its creator. In fact, I think there are a lot of people who understand Star Wars better than Rian does.

Called it in the inb4!

What? Look, I don’t want to go through the motions of this argument again, so here’s a flowchart that debunks the whole “Jedi are pacifists” thing, which really is just an invention of Rian Johnson’s imagination.

I think that flowchart’s pretty dishonest. I don’t think literally anyone has said that a Jedi is never, ever, allowed to use violence ever.

I mean, in ANH Obi-Wan lops off a guy’s arm and they were clearly involved in a war, somehow, and Obi-Wan encourages the deaths of millions of Stormtroopers on the Death Star because it meant preventing the deaths of billions, trillions more innocent civilians.

But they still are pacifists. They avoid violence and only use it when necessary.

And again, it’s not like Luke came out and said “Haha Kylo, I owned you non-violently because a Jedi is never allowed to use violence, get bent, son.” Rian Johnson’s intent was never to make any statement on the Jedi, and his reason for putting that in the movie had nothing to do with the nature of the Jedi. So… how Rian Johnson managed to misunderstand the Jedi or invent anything about them in that scene is beyond me.

The question is, what would you have preferred? Because simply removing the astral projection from the scene, having it be a simple action scene played absolutely straight, not only would it create a ton of problems, but it’s the exact kind of thing I’d expect from a hypothetical version of the sequel trilogy that was actually nothing but a lazy cash grab, no creative energy involved.

And I don’t mean to sound negative toward that, there’s room for both, and if you did just want a simple action adventure popcorn movie out of the ST, there’s nothing wrong with that. Personally I would’ve liked that for Episodes 7-9, with TFA and TLJ being 10 and 11. Have our cake and eat it too. But you can’t criticize the ST for being uncreative while also saying the ST shouldn’t have done the parts that were actually creative.

But I don’t want to presuppose your beliefs, so I’m all ears.

The PT has massive amounts of worldbuilding. The sheer volume of worlds, species, factions, and cultures introduced

Like what? Like who? The closest thing we get to that I can think of is that they have some new alien designs, but that’s art design again, not worldbuilding.

in the PT provided so much fertile ground for new stories to tell and history to flesh out.

The EU picking up the slack for the PT does not make the PT good. The EU doing worldbuilding does not mean the PT had any, in fact it just highlights the sheer lack of worldbuilding in the PT.

We finally got to see the Republic

We get to see the Republic is a really shallow ripoff of the United States government made by someone whose understanding of the US government clearly didn’t go beyond, like, 7th grade civics class. We don’t know anything about how it functions other than that the Chancellor is the leader of the executive and that the Senate has some legislative authority, and there is a third branch that is never relevant, despite us being told it’s supposed to be in, like, 2 lines?

Compare, like, literally any other fantasy Republic, or even any other fantasy government. There’s so much more interesting nuance that could be here, but is ditched for a really shallow-ass allegory about how Bush did 9/11 or some shit.

Maybe it could be said that spending too much time on the functionality of the Republic would be a bad idea and detract from the story. I’d probably agree. But that’s a justification for the prequels’ lack of worldbuilding, the fact of the matter is that there is a lack of worldbuilding, and the little bit that is there is downright uncreative.

We got to see the different corporations that formed the CIS.

Aside from the Trade Federation, we get name drops for the different corporations that formed the CIS. That’s it.

You don’t even have to leave Star Wars to see this done right, compare the depth the CIS gets in the EU and TCW to the complete lack thereof in the prequels.

Even the Trade Federation is literally just the GOP. They’re not even trying to hide it. Nute Gingrich + Ronald Raygun = Nute Gunray. While I hate the Republican Party, the Trade Federation as a criticism has the depth of tin foil. We don’t know anything about their beliefs, private or public, we don’t know anything about why their policies are bad, we just know that they’re evil and greedy and mean and they’re in league with George Walker Hitler.

As an instance of worldbuilding, they have even less depth than tin foil.

The Trade Federation is not the GOP. If anything, they have much more in common with groups like the East India Company.

I personally used to think that the Trade Federation was a state like the Phoenicians, except more modern. A small Empire built around trade, whose government essentially existed to defend those trade routes. This would also explain why they have a seat in the Senate: They’re not a corporation like the East India Company, they’re a state just like Naboo or Malastare.

The fact this is so unclear is sort of my point. We don’t know anything about the Trade Federation. We know pretty little about the Republic, and the groups that form the CIS are literally just name drops in one scene. Maybe this is breadth like you said, but it isn’t impressive or interesting when there’s almost literally zero depth.

Outside of the Phantom Menace, the world doesn’t feel like it’s exceptionally complex. I really don’t feel like there’s anything interesting going on behind the scenes in AotC or RotS. Even though the Canto Bight sequence in TLJ is probably the worst part of the movie, I feel like there’s far more going on behind the scenes then than I do in Revenge of the Sith. We learn about the economy of the galaxy, and how war profiteering has become the most profitable venture someone can participate in, and how that is a big driver in neofascism and the rise of the First Order.

Admittedly though I find it pretty hard to throw TPM under the bus here. It’s the best (least bad?) prequel by far.

The prequels actually added something significant to the story.

I really have to disagree hard on this. The Last Jedi feels like an actual contribution to Star Wars. It developed on interesting characters introduced in TFA, and gave Luke a character arc I was interested in. It contributed to the Star Wars mythos, and I kind of think you have to ignore the whole movie to say there wasn’t a lot of passion and care put into this movie or that it didn’t add anything significant to the story.

I’d say the opposite. You’d have to ignore large portions of the movie to claim that it was a product of love and care for the mythos. The film goes out of its way to debase and trivialize what came before. It repeatedly trips over its own messages (i.e. the message about whether self-sacrifice to defeat an enemy is good or bad). And it’s filled with so much bloat that’s not deep or cerebral in the slightest and drags the movie down from whatever lofty heights it was aiming for.

I wouldn’t say there’s a whole lot of debasing or trivializing what came before. That’s not what I got out of the movie.

TLJ is downright poorly executed in some places. I mean, starting off Luke’s character arc with a screw the audience joke was a quick and easy way for the movie to shoot itself in the foot in terms of getting people on board with its story. But there is a great story in there, and you don’t have to strip the movie down to its bones’ bones to get to it like the prequels.

I think a no bathos (or an a lot less bathos) fanedit would really help the movie. Because the movie’s biggest problem is that most of its serious scenes get undermined by bathos. Or, maybe it shouldn’t be called bathos because apparently bathos is supposed to be unintentional? I don’t know.

But a lot of criticisms made against the ST seem to be because they weren’t totally vapid. Especially ones having to do with Luke Skywalker.

There is a massive middle ground between “pathetic hobo Luke” and “invincible Force god Luke.” Luke in the OT was a great character not because of his power, but because of his kindness and compassion. He was the right person to restart the Jedi Order because of his wisdom and moral quality. TLJ doesn’t make Luke more interesting. It just removes all of Luke’s personality traits and surgically transfers them to Rey.

I think “pathetic hobo Luke” is a serious misinterpretation of Luke’s character in TLJ and it’s a shame that that’s what a lot of people got out of the movie. He’s not on the island because he’s a depressed asshole.

I don’t think Rey is a copy of Luke in TLJ either, and what sorts of character traits she has that came from Luke besides, like, a general protagonistiness, is beyond me.

I sort of think Rey becomes a rehash of Luke in TRoS, but moreso that they plagiarized his arc from ESB & RotJ. As a character in and of herself, I don’t think she’s that similar to Luke.

No, it didn’t. Anakin’s reason for turning was already being set up in TPM.

The idea that Anakin would turn to the dark side over a fear of losing loved ones from death wasn’t conceived until late 2003, after Revenge of the Sith was already shot. They talk about this on the Behind the Scenes documentary included with the 2005 DVD.

Anakin’s reason for turning to the dark side, behind the scenes during the production of TPM, was his age. He was in the exact sour spot of too old to have a fresh reset when joining the Jedi, too young to be able to make the mature decisions required for such a drastic lifestyle change.

Behind the scenes during the production of AotC, his reason for turning to the dark side was his mother. I don’t know much about what this entails, maybe it was something along the lines of blaming the Jedi for not saving his mother, or maybe he wanted to reverse death. But it had nothing to do with Padme, or saving anyone currently alive, yet.

During the production of RotS, his reason for turning to the dark side was that he thought the Jedi were trying to overthrow the Republic. After they already finished shooting RotS, though, George Lucas changed his mind one final time and came up with the saving Padme from death angle. Literally anything that has to do with Padme dying comes from reshoots, and the old plotline was (IMO, really sloppily) cut from the final version of the movie.

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I hate how Maul was brought back in TCW. IMO it was a terrible decision.

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There are dissertations shorter than this, I’m gonna need an abridged version to know what the hell either of you two are saying, it’s like I’m reading Infinite Jest over here!

Kidding aside I think the biggest difference PT vs ST for me is I can walk away with more from one than the other, I love it when I can still see new things every time I go back and watch something, PT is packed with little layers to pick apart without even touching on theme or why they’re there, ST has a very barren feeling without as much to soak in you don’t already get from a first viewing, at least for me.

My unpopular opinion is the PT doesn’t have a villain problem and there aren’t too many, they also aren’t nearly as throwaway as the ST is with their spare villains.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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I liked Maul’s arc in Rebels, but i agree him surviving death after Phantom Menace makes little sense.

We all now know the reason George brought him back for Clone Wars was because he was supposed to be the big bad of the sequels he was planning.

Which is ridiculous.

Kenobi made short work of him in Episode I, the idea Maul would rival Palpatine is absurd. Or that he would be difficult for Luke to handle in like 3 seconds, without some neophyte Padawan’s help.

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As stupid as Maul’s return was, any character can be written to become more powerful over time, and at least with Maul he would have had a ready-made justification for existing and wanting the power of Palpatine which was denied him when he fell. That at least makes him a character, unlike Snoke.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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The question is, what would you have preferred? Because simply removing the astral projection from the scene, having it be a simple action scene played absolutely straight, not only would it create a ton of problems, but it’s the exact kind of thing I’d expect from a hypothetical version of the sequel trilogy that was actually nothing but a lazy cash grab, no creative energy involved.

With all the rest of TLJ remaining the same, and the leadup to Luke’s appearance being the same, here’s what I would have done.

Imagine Luke did come there in person. Kylo insists on killing him personally, and orders that the First Order broadcast the fight on the Holonet, so that the whole galaxy can witness the death of Luke Skywalker. Maybe we even have shots of crowds watching holograms of the battle: on Coruscant, on Canto Bight (broom boy would be watching), on Naboo, etc. Kylo wants the whole galaxy to see as its last hope is snuffed out. Luke earnestly tries to talk him down and convince him to turn away from this path, and apologizes profusely for his actions towards Ben. It would be made clear that Luke still cares about him and sees the good in him. Kylo furiously lashes out, despite Luke’s best efforts, and the two have a physical duel. Show how much stronger Kylo has become since he is much less conflicted than before. His anger and hatred have become focused, and he is finally a force to be reckoned with on par with Vader. Luke puts up a valiant fight, but Kylo overpowers him, and wounds him severely, then again, and again.

All the while, the Resistance are making their escape, with Rey frantically trying to throw the rocks from the cave entrance one by one. The process of lifting each rock would be visibly taxing for her, and there would be a sense of a race against time as it could cut back and forth between her struggle to open the way and Luke’s battle with Kylo. Every time it seems that Luke is about to fall over in defeat, he gathers himself back up and stands defiantly, determined to buy the Resistance as much time as possible, and Kylo is getting angrier and more unhinged. Show how the Holonet broadcast is starting to have the opposite of its intended effect on the people of the galaxy. People are rallying behind Luke. They’re cheering him on and loudly encouraging him to keep fighting. Then, when Kylo finally strikes Luke down, and Kylo angrily flaunts his triumph over the martyred last Jedi, the galaxy watches in stunned silence and grief (maybe have Qui-Gon’s funeral theme playing). And that grief begins to stir inside of people, until it erupts in galaxy-wide revolution by Episode IX.

That would’ve messed me up emotionally. Maybe some people would consider this ending to be played too straight, but Star Wars is a melodrama at its core. It’s a simple story, but compelling in its simplicity and earnestness.

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They did not want to rehash Star Wars, or Luke would have been physically on Crait and would have let Kylo strike him down so Leia and the rebels could escape the way Obi Wan let Vader cut him down on the death star.

They sort of did it but with Luke as a force projection instead so Rian could say it was original. And so Broom boy got his legend.

And Luke being a cranky old man was a bit like Yoda on Ach-to. I’m surprised no one else noticed the parallels along with that dark cave being like the tree on Dagobah.

Except in Yoda’s case he was testing Luke, in Luke’s case he wasn’t testing Rey he went there to die and meant to burn it all down. The Jedi the hope for the galaxy, burn it all with that tree and the jedi texts. And teach no one.

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JadedSkywalker said:

They did not want to rehash Star Wars, or Luke would have been physically on Crait and would have let Kylo strike him down so Leia and the rebels could escape the way Obi Wan let Vader cut him down on the death star.

It was a bit too late for that if they were worried about rehashing. The first half of the throne room scene was borderline plagiarism already, and the battle of Crait was very Hothlike. I have heard people point out the Luke-Yoda and the island-Dagobah parallels before. TLJ is quite derivative, and the most original portions of the movie (Canto Bight, the mutiny subplot) are generally considered to be the worst parts of the movie.

In the version I wrote above, Luke doesn’t let himself get cut down. He’s trying to stay in the fight as long as possible to protect his allies and give them time to escape. And the whole time, he’s trying to reach out to Ben, as Luke would.

They sort of did it but with Luke as a force projection instead so Rian could say it was original. And so Broom boy got his legend.

That’s the part that doesn’t make sense, though. How would Broom Boy, or anyone else in the galaxy outside of the First Order military or the handful of people aboard the Falcon, even know about what Luke did? How would the legend spread?

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Okay, back to unpopular opinions:

Kylo shouldn’t have been redeemed. If Kylo was going to have an arc that was a reverse of Vader’s arc in the OT, like JJ Abrams said he would have, then Kylo should have started out TFA as a weak and struggling POV character we’re made to empathize with. He could have been someone who was fighting for the wrong side, but was held back from being truly evil by his attachment to his family and the good he still had in his heart. Then, by the end of TFA, he would have solidified his alignment with the Dark Side (which is what him killing his father was likely supposed to do), and instead of becoming unraveled over the course of the trilogy until he suddenly turned good at the eleventh hour, he gradually progresses his way to becoming a truly formidable main villain of the story, entirely consumed by the Dark Side. This also would have made him a great foil for Finn. Both were raised in opposing environments, one in a place of privilege and the other a faceless drone, both filled with doubt and a lack of clear identity, and both would ultimately find their place in the world on the opposite sides of where they started. Finn embracing the Light, and Kylo embracing the Dark. (Kylo murdering Han really should have put an end to the question of “will he or won’t he?” as far as redemption was concerned. Since he rejected the offer of redemption from his own family, then that should have been the end of it.)

Either that, or they could have just gone with the idea of Kylo being a double agent trying to get close to Snoke/Palpatine so he could kill him, finishing what Anakin started. That would have worked, too.

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I feel like TLJ did the double agent angle even if it might have been unintentional on the director’s part. It’s a shame that TROS didn’t run with this idea that Kylo would attempt to find what he considers to be a balance between light and dark for his new Empire, essentially finishing what Anakin started and enacting some distorted version of Luke’s philosophy of balance and rejection of the past.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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If murdering a member of your family means you shouldn’t get to be redeemed then Anakin/Vader shouldn’t have been. He murdered his very pregnant wife by strangling her with the dark side of the force.

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JadedSkywalker said:

If murdering a member of your family means you shouldn’t get to be redeemed then Anakin/Vader shouldn’t have been. He murdered his very pregnant wife by strangling her with the dark side of the force.

Anakin/Vader didn’t kill Padme. If he had killed her, or Luke, or Leia, especially if they were trying to help him back to the Light, then yes, that would have been the end of any potential redemption. That’s why Vader thought he was beyond redemption, because Sidious told him he killed her.

Kylo was offered a clear cut choice by the man who raised him and loved him. There was nothing forcing Kylo to stay on the Dark Side, but he chose it anyway. Unless he was secretly playing double agent and this was all part of some bigger plan, then that was it. He had made his choice.

Then he made the same choice again in TLJ, after Snoke was dead and he had no reason to stay beyond personal ambition.

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act on instinct said:

There are dissertations shorter than this, I’m gonna need an abridged version to know what the hell either of you two are saying, it’s like I’m reading Infinite Jest over here!

lol

As for what’s going on in this thread right now instead of a few days ago, Vader committed far worse crimes against the galaxy, but Kylo committed far worse crimes against the audience in TFA alone by killing Han Solo. Plus, Vader’s arc in the OT seems to mostly set him up more and more for redemption, but in TFA and TLJ, Kylo just goes deeper and deeper into the dark side. The only time I really hate Vader is at the end of Empire, most of the OT it’s the Empire you hate, and Vader’s just an agent of the Empire. Kylo is good/humanized more often than Vader is even in RotJ, but he also swings to the rotten through and through end of the spectrum more often than I think Vader did.

I don’t think this necessarily means Kylo can’t be redeemed, but it’s something that needs a lot more work from a storytelling perspective than Darth Vader.

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SparkySywer said:
it’s something that needs a lot more work from a storytelling perspective

What an understatement.

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It’s weird how TLJ kept toying with the idea of Kylo being redeemed, only to arrive at the same conclusion that TFA did. Kylo was offered every chance at redemption. Vader at least had the excuse that he was under Palpatine’s thumb, and that he thought he had lost everything and had nothing to live for beyond vengeance and serving the Emperor. By the end of TLJ, Kylo was very much his own man driven by his own agency. Despite the movie’s teasing the idea of redemption and romance, TLJ’s ending seemed to go out of its way to close the door on him ever turning good, and put Kylo into a scenario where he simply didn’t want to turn away from his path. He freely chose damnation rather than being tricked or forced into it, making him have much more in common with Palpatine than with Vader.

I thought his arc was poorly executed, and that he wasn’t a strong enough, intimidating enough villain to carry the role by himself for a whole film, but I appreciate the concept they were going for.

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Omni said:

I hate how Maul was brought back in TCW. IMO it was a terrible decision.

I thought so too for the longest time. I can’t imagine surviving being sliced completely in two. (Side note, some people didn’t see that.)

But I must say, what Filoni did with the character after he was brought back, more than makes up for it. Maul is part of several of my favorite Star Wars scenes in those animated series. When looking at the whole, I don’t mind suspending my disbelief.

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Servii said:

It’s weird how TLJ kept toying with the idea of Kylo being redeemed, only to arrive at the same conclusion that TFA did. Kylo was offered every chance at redemption. Vader at least had the excuse that he was under Palpatine’s thumb, and that he thought he had lost everything and had nothing to live for beyond vengeance and serving the Emperor. By the end of TLJ, Kylo was very much his own man driven by his own agency. Despite the movie’s teasing the idea of redemption and romance, TLJ’s ending seemed to go out of its way to close the door on him ever turning good, and put Kylo into a scenario where he simply didn’t want to turn away from his path. He freely chose damnation rather than being tricked or forced into it, making him have much more in common with Palpatine than with Vader.

I thought his arc was poorly executed, and that he wasn’t a strong enough, intimidating enough villain to carry the role by himself for a whole film, but I appreciate the concept they were going for.

This is why I really can’t feel satisfied watching TLJ standalone as a coda to the OT as some suggest, it still leaves me the viewer to make up my own ideas of what happens afterward the same I would with only TFA. In addition, with no added context from the previous film I now really am placed in the middle, but not in the good ‘in medias res’ way, more the confusing ‘caught it in the middle on tv’ way with fresh new characters who haven’t really been properly established, major elements of at least Rey and Finn’s characters come from TFA, you need the context to have the arc. Cherry on top Kylo’s fate and backstory remain ambiguous and overall the cycle repeating with no resolve paints what happens after ROTJ into a very cynical corner, now we’re again back to imperials/rebels status quo except Han is gone and I can’t connect with the new cast because I have no idea where they’re coming from, a hybrid edit of both would be much more coherent, though I appreciate the idea in theory.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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George should have made a Sequel Trilogy in the late 80s/90s, before he made the Prequels.

There should be more giant monsters in the Star Wars universe.

Modern Star Wars aesthetic has gone too far into bleak/grimdark territory, especially in content closer to the OT era (Solo, Fallen Order, Mandalorian, etc.). One thing I did like about the Sequel Trilogy, especially TFA, was how vibrant and colorful it was, rather than just grey and washed out. Also, Lucasfilm shouldn’t be too afraid of showing nicer looking, more developed planets like Coruscant. Not every planet needs to look run down.

Star Wars should place more emphasis on nonhuman main characters.

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I don’t believe Lucas ever really had a story for Luke that was interesting in sequels. He had some vague throw away single idea of Luke handing down excalibur to the next generation. But that isn’t a sequel, not really in my opinion if the story isn’t about Luke.

Lucas had used up his original sequel ideas in Return of the Jedi of Luke confronting the Emperor and finding his sister.

There really isn’t anything interesting in terms of conflict and the best Star Wars story was already used in episodes IV, V and VI. The prequels ended up being boring and a backstory that really did not need to be told, and it seems like the sequels never really were even a thing. The story ends on Endor with a happy fairy tale ending.

Lucas could have done something interesting about fathers and sons and generations and had Luke being a teacher and a father, but we all know that wasn’t what he intended. He wanted to make a second prequel trilogy around the time he sold to Disney with his latest idea for the sequels.

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I actually like the line “Somehow, Palpatine returned.” Sure, it’s not the most creative, but it feels like what a person would actually say in that situation, and Oscar Isaac’s hopeless delivery really sells it for me.

You’ve got to ask yourself one question: “Am I making Carrie Fisher’s ghost proud?”
Well, are ya, punk?

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I think right now is the best time to be a Star Wars fan. We’ve got access to so much Star Wars content in high quality, with so much more on the way. You can stick with whatever is you favorite or explore something new. I love it all. MTFBWY