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The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 7

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 (Edited)

Politicians love to have changes of heart when it ensures their survival on various issues. Just ask Mitt Romney or John Kerry!

I made the post about Santorum not so much to say that it invalidates the stance of someone who is genuinely anti-abortion, but that most politicians are full of shit on this issue (and many others) and it's sheer folly for common folk to feel empowered or inspired by the phony words the politicians spout.

Also, this story exhibits a situation in which a person who presents oneself as 100% anti-abortion in all cases (see video in my news link) will bend his/her morals and rules when a complicated pregnancy affects him/her. I connected this to my comical image above it which illustrates that people do not often practice what they preach.

Whew.

“Grow up. These are my Disney's movies, not yours.”

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I'm not defending his position at all, but rather criticizing the logic employed by the blogger, implying that if Santorum is pro-choice in any circumstance, he should be pro-choice in all circumstances.  Not trying to cover morals, just the logic employed by the blogger.

EDIT: I typed the last bit in a hurry, so allow me to clarify.  If the blogger's message had been, "Ric Santorum is a hypocrite for stating he opposes abortion in all cases but making an exception for his wife whose health was in jeopardy," it would have been a valid argument.  It would neither have proved or disproved the morality of abortions in any circumstance, but would have identified him as a hypocrite.  However, that's not what the message of the blog was.  Instead, its message was, "Ric Santorum opposes abortion in all cases except when health is at risk, as evidenced by his wife's abortion when her health was in jeopardy; Ric Santorum thereby shows the need for choice, thereby supporting pro-choice."  This is an either-or argument: either you are completely against abortion or you are in favor of choice, and if in favor of any choice, you should be in favor of all choices.

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georgec said:

Politicians love to have changes of heart when it ensures their survival on various issues. Just ask Mitt Romney or John Kerry!

I made the post about Santorum not so much to say that it invalidates the stance of someone who is genuinely anti-abortion, but that most politicians are full of shit on this issue (and many others) and it's sheer folly for common folk to feel empowered or inspired by the phony words the politicians spout.

Also, this story exhibits a situation in which a person who presents oneself as 100% anti-abortion in all cases (see video in my news link) will bend his/her morals and rules when a complicated pregnancy affects him/her. I connected this to my comical image above it which illustrates that people do not often practice what they preach.

Whew.

Yeah, politicians are phonies.  And this proves that it is seldom wise to stick with a pure stance; there is grey area to almost anything.  I am blessed and cursed with a strong ability to see both sides to most issues.  Problem is I often have a hard time creating a firm opinion of my own as a result.

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TV's Frink said:

 

darth_ender said:


If he has never said he opposes abortion when a mother's life is at risk, then he is clearly not being hypocritical.


http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/santorum-abortion-health-exception-phony

When I was leading the charge on partial birth abortion, several members came forward and said, "Why don’t we just ban all abortions?" Tom Daschle was one of them, if you remember. And Susan Collins, and others. They wanted a health exception, which of course is a phony exception which would make the ban ineffective.
Sounds like he opposes abortion for the sake of the mother's health to me.

 

yeah, the definitely makes Santorum a hypocrite.  You can't be against abortions in cases where the mother's life is at stake, but be for it when its your own wife's life at stake. 

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Certainly with most things (not just abortion) people have opinions/beliefs on the matter based solely on what they were taught, how they were raised, etc. It makes sense since if they have never been through the specific life experience and so they have to base their opinion on moral upbringing. However it does make them extremely naive.

Santorum's opinion on whether abortion should be allowed when the mother's health is on the line changed after his wife's health was on the line. Yes it's flip flopping, yes he's a hypocrit, and he was an ignorant fool. But what I want to know is has his opinion on the matter changed? Is he now open to the idea of abortion when the mother's health is in danger or was his wife's pregnancy just a "special circumstance"? Because if he has changed and he's at least willing see thing's differently, then I can sort of respect that (sort of). But if his mind hasn't changed and his political stance  is the same then fuck that guy.

Dick Cheney is another example. The super Neo-Con's daughter comes out of the closet and now he's for gay rights. The irony is huge, and I had to laugh when I heard it, but part of me has to give him props for changing his mind on the issue.

Edit: Although the hypocritical bullshit could be avoided if they weren't all narrow-minded twats to begin with.

However, when I see politicians preaching against gays and lesbians and then sneaking off to get plowed in the ass by a stranger, that's not the same thing. Those guys are assholes and hate mongers. If there is a hell (and there isn't) I hope they burn in it.

If you want a Myspleen invite, just PM me and ask.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Once-upon-a-time-on-MySpleen/topic/12652/

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You have a way of putting things so delicately, walkingdork.  But I see what you mean.

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walkingdork said:

However, when I see politicians preaching against gays and lesbians and then sneaking off to get plowed in the ass by a stranger, that's not the same thing. Those guys are assholes and hate mongers. If there is a hell (and there isn't) I hope they burn in it.

Quote of the Month.

Since they're like poetry, what with the rhyming and all, I find that I only need to watch three out of the six films.

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Monolithium said:

walkingdork said:

However, when I see politicians preaching against gays and lesbians and then sneaking off to get plowed in the ass by a stranger, that's not the same thing. Those guys are assholes and hate mongers. If there is a hell (and there isn't) I hope they burn in it.

Quote of the Month.

hehe

If you want a Myspleen invite, just PM me and ask.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Once-upon-a-time-on-MySpleen/topic/12652/

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walkingdork and none, how bout you two debate the issue this thread is about instead of attacking religion? 

I think they call that ad hominem  do they? 

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Plato, Aristotle, and Hippocrates all mention abortion in their writings. So yeah, it has been around awhile.

I am willing to bet abortion has been around for just about as long as pregnancy.

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There is a bit of a debate as to whether Hippocrates was anti-abortion or not. He specifically condemned a particular means of abortion, the debate is whether he meant to condemn all abortion and specifically mention that particular means because it was the common method, or if he was simply condemning that specific method because of the risks it posed for the mother.

 

It is also interesting to consider that in ancient Jewish law, if someone caused an accident that resulted in the death of another person, they were charged with murder. If someone caused an accident involving a pregnant woman that caused her to miscarry, they were not charged with murder. 

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CP3S said:

It is also interesting to consider that in ancient Jewish law, if someone caused an accident that resulted in the death of another person, they were charged with murder. If someone caused an accident involving a pregnant woman that caused her to miscarry, they were not charged with murder. 

Exodus 21:22, to provide a source.

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To illustrate my view that what is important is where one's views are anchored on this topic.

The blue elephant in the room.

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ray_afraid said:

ORIGINAL POST RETRACTED

-I really shouldn't click on these kinds of topics. Anytime someone opens with "here's my stance and you can't change it because I believe in God and therefore I'm right and you are wrong." I know I should just shrug and walk away...

 Yeah, that's clearly what I had intended.  Since you've read all my political posts, you know that I've taken the stance that "I believe in God, therefore I'm right" on virtually every issue.  I'm inflexible and intolerant of other viewpoints.  Thanks for stereotyping someone for feeling strongly about an issue, even if religion does play an important role in my view.  I love how so many lefties claim that the right is the side with the negative stereotypes.  Sheesh!

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Mrebo said:

To illustrate my view that what is important is where one's views are anchored on this topic.

 Ugh.  I hate this topic, though I feel more strongly about it than most any other.  I just know how these "friendly" discussions tend to go.  But here I go, jumping back in when I'm trying to actually spend less time at this site.

From your article:

“Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.

[...]

Merely being human is not in itself a reason for ascribing someone a right to life. Indeed, many humans are not considered subjects of a right to life: spare embryos where research on embryo stem cells is permitted, fetuses where abortion is permitted, criminals where capital punishment is legal.”

Truly, their position is justified, if we accept the premise of justifiable abortion at all.  What gives a born child any more right to life than a fetus?  And that's the thing--it's not a slippery slope fallacy; it's a slippery slope!  Really, when we start questioning whether a human has attained personhood or not and use that as a means of justifying abortion, where do we really draw that line?  It's only a matter of convenience in the end.  It's far too arbitrary.  Perhaps we will one day be capable of saving the majority of developing children no more than 10 weeks gestational age.  Would we move the age of personhood to that point?  Perhaps we will identify the precise age when a child can be considered sentient and fully self-aware (not truly complete until 4-5 years of age, based on our understanding); should we move the legal age for "abortions" up to 4 years of age?

It's not just a matter of my faith in God; it's a matter of my faith in humanity and the sacredness of human life.  My values have changed greatly over my life, where I am more accepting of many things than my parents and the majority of my church are.  Heck, I oppose homosexuality just as I oppose adultery, but I have a hard time justifying illegalizing gay marriage for the same reasons that I couldn't justify illegalizing adultery.  But I simply cannot ever see myself changing my mind on abortion.

I teach my sons to respect the ants around our yard and not to kill them.  Many liberals are completely in favor of the rights of animals, creatures who don't even have a chance at gaining personhood.  Why, oh why do we find the life of an embryo or fetus (terms that in many ways dehumanize what is really a developing child) so relatively meaningless?

I know I can be long-winded in this topic, so I'll stop with one last thought: I do sympathize with mothers who did not intend to get pregnant.  It is a scary thing, it causes changes to one's body and alters her life forever.  But I see no reason for her ability to choose to be so much more important than the child's.  I am pro-choice: choose not to have sex unless you're willing to have a child with that person.