.Mac. said:
But anyway, this debate has of course gone on far too long than it really needed, and it's becoming rather stale at this point - it's just too bad that it doesn't seem like anything was accomplished by it all. Let's end it with that.
Couldn't agree more :)
So cool to be a Star Wars fan - first we got the new teaser for "The Force Awakens", now the long awaited "Battlefront" :-)
speaking of which, the ground battle on Endor (or it's moon) is rather heavy, showing what in RotJ was kind of missing - meaning less Ewoks, more Rebels!
https://youtu.be/ZwWLns7-xN8
It looks the the Endor section of the ROTJ wishlist to be honest :-D
Well, for those who dislike "Clone Wars" or "Rebels", at least they do get right, how things in Star Wars should look like, drawing from McQuarrie ...
... and even the new movie pulls ideas from early concepts ;-)
removed
So this thread got me thinking about 8 months or so ago. i really liked the idea that Dooku should be shown earlier in the film. IMHO i also think that Dooku should also be made a villain from the beginning. no more of this "is he bad or is he good" crap, when ROTS just straight up makes him bad. it is unnecessary to the story. going with that idea i also feel as though the scene when obiwan and dooku talk is rediculous as well. why would dooku just not tell obiwan that palpatine is the bad guy and end it all? then absolutely nothing is done with this information later in the film or in ROTS. with those ideas in mind i worked on this little project for my own edit and hope that something similar will be done with Ady's version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MtRYmqkRc&feature=youtu.be
lemme know what you all think
“You can’t polish a turd. But you can shape it to look like candy.”
Great concept and very well executed! That's exactly the sort of repurposing we can expect from Revisited.
Great work! :)
One makes me wonder now that should Dooku be utilised from TPM, could Darth Maul be reduced to an Inquisitor kinda role?
“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”
I liked it too but I still prefer to think of Dooku not actually being a Sith Lord but rather a Jedi that knows the reality of the situation but isn't believed so is trying to do something about it on his own and in the process being manipulated into aiding Palpatine.
It's makes him into a more noble and tragic figure of pathos.
A bit of a Cassandra if Star Wars is going to play on myth.
I would have him appear as a hologram in TPM assessing a similar situation to the Naboo crisis on one of the other later Separatist worlds opening the scope so it wasn't an isolated case.
I'd have plead with the council to send more people with Qui-Gon and have him hanging around outside his funeral with bitter look on his face.
Not a fan these inquisitor chaps myself.
Either get off the can or Sith that's what I say :-D
Jackpumpkinhead said:
So this thread got me thinking about 8 months or so ago. i really liked the idea that Dooku should be shown earlier in the film. IMHO i also think that Dooku should also be made a villain from the beginning. no more of this "is he bad or is he good" crap, when ROTS just straight up makes him bad. it is unnecessary to the story. going with that idea i also feel as though the scene when obiwan and dooku talk is rediculous as well. why would dooku just not tell obiwan that palpatine is the bad guy and end it all? then absolutely nothing is done with this information later in the film or in ROTS. with those ideas in mind i worked on this little project for my own edit and hope that something similar will be done with Ady's version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9MtRYmqkRc&feature=youtu.be
lemme know what you all think
I always felt that he was a wasted character as well. However, I much preferred his ambiguity in AOTC over his outright evilness of ROTS. And the fact that they got rid of Lee and replaced him with a CG coughing robot is just another of the many travesties of the PT.
Ever since my first viewing (and there have not been many) of AOTC I have always wished that there was a way to make him an "in-between" of some sort....either a double agent, or a Jedi fallen by the wayside. Never full on evil, OR good. The PT was sorely lacking in interesting characters that we care about or identify with, and I think Dooku could have been one of them if only made just a little more tragic. I had envisioned a situation where Anakin kills him (possibly after his appearance in TPM and AOTC.....I really like the idea of shifting his roles into the other films as he serves zero purpose in ROTS), and then finds out that he was in fact working for the Jedi, and that the Jedi WERE aware of a plot to take over. Anakin struggles with the fact that he killed a good guy, and then in a nice twist he admits to someone that he actually ENJOYED killing him. This would be a nice throwback to the idea of him actually being seduced by the dark side. Therefore Anakin's struggle (instead of being tricked into joining Palpy) is all about wanting to be good, and to be loved by his friends, but also desirous of the feelings of power that evil acts can enable. We all know how that particular struggle ends, but it would be far more entertaining to watch him fight his demons than get bamboozled by Palpatine.
That clip is great! Where are the voices sourced from? Are they your own?
ben_danger said:
That clip is great! Where are the voices sourced from? Are they your own?
They were not my own. i found a fellow Star Wars Fan on Youtube that does a great Palpatine and Dooku. the best part is he works for free
you can find more of his stuff here:
http://michaelpicher.weebly.com/
muddyknees2000 said:
I always felt that he was a wasted character as well. However, I much preferred his ambiguity in AOTC over his outright evilness of ROTS. And the fact that they got rid of Lee and replaced him with a CG coughing robot is just another of the many travesties of the PT.
Ever since my first viewing (and there have not been many) of AOTC I have always wished that there was a way to make him an "in-between" of some sort....either a double agent, or a Jedi fallen by the wayside. Never full on evil, OR good. The PT was sorely lacking in interesting characters that we care about or identify with, and I think Dooku could have been one of them if only made just a little more tragic. I had envisioned a situation where Anakin kills him (possibly after his appearance in TPM and AOTC.....I really like the idea of shifting his roles into the other films as he serves zero purpose in ROTS), and then finds out that he was in fact working for the Jedi, and that the Jedi WERE aware of a plot to take over. Anakin struggles with the fact that he killed a good guy, and then in a nice twist he admits to someone that he actually ENJOYED killing him. This would be a nice throwback to the idea of him actually being seduced by the dark side. Therefore Anakin's struggle (instead of being tricked into joining Palpy) is all about wanting to be good, and to be loved by his friends, but also desirous of the feelings of power that evil acts can enable. We all know how that particular struggle ends, but it would be far more entertaining to watch him fight his demons than get bamboozled by Palpatine.
As far as the character of Dooku is concerned, I have never liked how he was constantly viewed as an on again off again villain. IMHO i think Lee was under used. star wars isnt about politics and double crosses. this isnt a mission impossible movie. its star wars, where villains are villain and good guys are good guys. in my view, Dooku is the villain of AOTC. the flip flop of the character makes no sense at all. especially since he is just a blatant bad guy in ROTS.
Also the scene with Dooku and Ob1 never set well with me. first of all it looked ridiculous. Ewan looked like he was hanging from wires and why on earth he would be spinning like that makes no sense to me. were the geonosians trying to induce some sort of motion sickness to torture him???
as a result i decided to make this clip for my own edit. make dooku the bad guy, make palpatine the one that ordered the hit on padme (because she is the loudest voice against the republic army) and introduce Dooku earlier in the film (i know Jar Jar is in the beginning of the scene, but this will ultimately be placed just after padme talks with palpy and the jedi; possibly after anakin and ob1 talk to her, i haven't decided yet). Thanks for the positive words. im not 100% disagreeing with MuddyKnees, but i hope that if i ever finish my edit, everyone will understand what i am trying to accomplish.
“You can’t polish a turd. But you can shape it to look like candy.”
Jackpumpkinhead said:
As far as the character of Dooku is concerned, I have never liked how he was constantly viewed as an on again off again villain. IMHO i think Lee was under used. star wars isnt about politics and double crosses. this isnt a mission impossible movie. its star wars, where villains are villain and good guys are good guys.
No worries about disagreements. Discussion is what these forums are for. And speaking of which....I couldn't disagree more with the above statement. Star Wars in its very nature is about characters changing their outlook on life....flip-flopping as you say. The core of the 6 film saga has Anakin going from good to bad, and then back to good. Han in ANH at first doesn't give a damn about good causes and the idea of friends....he later changes his way of thinking and saves the day.....becoming one of these heroes he used to scoff at. And then there's Lando.....only looks out for himself, much like Han used to, until he also has a change of heart. In fact, I'd say that grey-area characters are what's most interesting about SW.
EDIT: One of the more interesting bits of AOTC (IMO) was when Dooku expresses regret that Qui-Gon isn't around anymore. I genuinely got a sense that the reckless Jedi that Qui-Gon was (*cough* should have been Obi) might have been a good friend to Dooku, and might have been sympathetic to some of his arguments. It lent more depth to an already dead character. The kind of depth that the PT needed way more of. I felt that it was one of the better character moments in a trilogy populated almost entirely with "people" I couldn't care less about (*cough* Grievous).
muddyknees2000 said:
And then there's Lando.....only looks out for himself, much like Han used to, until he also has a change of heart. In fact, I'd say that grey-area characters are what's most interesting about SW.
I've never understood this viewpoint. I think Lando did all he could to save everybody. He didn't sell anyone out to save himself and he had a plan to rescue everyone. A plan that worked with the exception of Fett getting away with Han, whom he latter helps rescue.
Lando was looking out for the entire population of Cloud City.
If he had called the evacuation too early there would have been a blood bath, if he had warned Han there would have been a blood bath. He tried to negotiate with a Sith Lord.
This never goes well.
Leia should have known this but her emotions got the better of her.
In this regard having her Vader's daughter makes perfect sense in retrospect, much more so than Luke being his son :
Bingowings said:
Lando was looking out for the entire population of Cloud City.
The residents of Cloud City aren't really presented to us as a character in the film.....the way that the Ewoks ARE presented to us in ROTJ....I've always felt that Lando was much more selfish, looking out for his own interests. He sells out his friends to protect his own ass (not that he has much of a chance against Vader)....and then sets about making it right once he can do something about it. The film's focus is not with the residents of Cloud City.....but with Han & Co. and Luke. Lando betrays them, then helps them. He goes from bad (even if forced to be bad by circumstances out of his control) to good.
Jackpumpkinhead said:
Also the scene with Dooku and Ob1 never set well with me. first of all it looked ridiculous. Ewan looked like he was hanging from wires and why on earth he would be spinning like that makes no sense to me. were the geonosians trying to induce some sort of motion sickness to torture him???
Yeah this was always a wasted scene. It could be interesting to move some of the dialogue to the duel at the end of the film, especially with Dooku persuading Obi-Wan to join him. It could add a bit more suspense to the fight when Obi-Wan refuses, and Dooku moves in to kill him.
What choice did Lando have? What could he have done better? What did he do wrong?
I just don't see it.
Nor do any of the characters on the film, it seems.
Han punches him, Chewie strangles him, Leia gives him mad attitude when he complains about not having a choice........I think a few people are displeased at his actions. Whether or not he had a choice is an issue of semantics. His actions bring harm to protagonists = Bad Guy. He then starts to help them when he DOES have more of a choice = Good Guy.
muddyknees2000 said:
No worries about disagreements. Discussion is what these forums are for. And speaking of which....I couldn't disagree more with the above statement. Star Wars in its very nature is about characters changing their outlook on life....flip-flopping as you say. The core of the 6 film saga has Anakin going from good to bad, and then back to good. Han in ANH at first doesn't give a damn about good causes and the idea of friends....he later changes his way of thinking and saves the day.....becoming one of these heroes he used to scoff at. And then there's Lando.....only looks out for himself, much like Han used to, until he also has a change of heart. In fact, I'd say that grey-area characters are what's most interesting about SW.
EDIT: One of the more interesting bits of AOTC (IMO) was when Dooku expresses regret that Qui-Gon isn't around anymore. I genuinely got a sense that the reckless Jedi that Qui-Gon was (*cough* should have been Obi) might have been a good friend to Dooku, and might have been sympathetic to some of his arguments. It lent more depth to an already dead character. The kind of depth that the PT needed way more of. I felt that it was one of the better character moments in a trilogy populated almost entirely with "people" I couldn't care less about (*cough* Grievous).
i understand what you are trying to say but...i just feel as though the whole point for ob1 and dooku's conversation was to:
1. give us a "Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son..." moment. but it was poorly executed.
2. try and make us believe that dooku is a good guy because he trained Quigon. but again this falls flat because he isnt a good guy. he is working with the flipp'n sith! he sold his soul to the devil. if he really wanted ob1 to join him, he would have told him then and there who the sith master was and let him go. but instead he stayed the villain and tried to kill everyone.
this isnt anything like han, lando or even vader. its not until the very end of ROTJ does vader turn good. han is at his core a good guy, and is presented as such throughout the movies. lando...well lando is just lando. but dooku is presented as a bad guy, he is always with the bad guys doing bad guy things and never once do any of his actions prove otherwise. so why would you have one short scene, give him a few lines that slightly suggest that he maybe, sort of, kinda, possibly, might be a little good. just to have him sentence our heroes to death 10mins later, pull a red bad guy lightsaber out, mame our heroes and then have full on "we're going to take over the world" conversations with the man we KNOW is evil.
“You can’t polish a turd. But you can shape it to look like candy.”
ben_danger said:
Jackpumpkinhead said:
Also the scene with Dooku and Ob1 never set well with me. first of all it looked ridiculous. Ewan looked like he was hanging from wires and why on earth he would be spinning like that makes no sense to me. were the geonosians trying to induce some sort of motion sickness to torture him???
Yeah this was always a wasted scene. It could be interesting to move some of the dialogue to the duel at the end of the film, especially with Dooku persuading Obi-Wan to join him. It could add a bit more suspense to the fight when Obi-Wan refuses, and Dooku moves in to kill him.
Agreed!!
“You can’t polish a turd. But you can shape it to look like candy.”
Jackpumpkinhead said:
ben_danger said:
Jackpumpkinhead said:
Also the scene with Dooku and Ob1 never set well with me. first of all it looked ridiculous. Ewan looked like he was hanging from wires and why on earth he would be spinning like that makes no sense to me. were the geonosians trying to induce some sort of motion sickness to torture him???
Yeah this was always a wasted scene. It could be interesting to move some of the dialogue to the duel at the end of the film, especially with Dooku persuading Obi-Wan to join him. It could add a bit more suspense to the fight when Obi-Wan refuses, and Dooku moves in to kill him.
Agreed!!
I wonder if this could be accomplished by rotoscoping dooku from that scene into the duel scene background in some close up shots and overlaying dialogue when the character's back's are turned.
Jackpumpkinhead said:
...so why would you have one short scene, give him a few lines that slightly suggest that he maybe, sort of, kinda, possibly, might be a little good.
To make the PT less one dimensional.
I definitely agree with you that he's more or less bad, and only has that one moment where he puts into question his loyalties. But I felt that moment was a strong one and should have been touched upon even more. Basically we're both advocating opposite ideas. You want the small amount of "good" removed to make him all bad. I want more "good" added to the bad to make him less easy to define. Your idea is likely much easier to bring to life than mine is, I just think it makes for yet another one dimensional character in a PT that's already chock full of 'em.
muddyknees2000 said:
Whether or not he had a choice is an issue of semantics. His actions bring harm to protagonists = Bad Guy.
I disagree. I think his lack of choice in the matter and the way he handled it all makes him a hero through and through. He never acted out of self interest, but was looking out for everybody the entire time. Sure, the citizens of Cloud City aren't portrayed as characters, but if Lando sacrificed them all to save his buddy and his buddy's girlfriend, I think that would make him a selfish bad guy.
Our heroes (including Han in the next film) seem accept his heroic actions once they realize what he's up to. Even if Han died, Lando did the right thing.
I think we're arguing slightly different points here. Where as you're arguing IN-world, I'm coming from a basic film mechanics OUT-of-world standpoint.
I say this because I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've just said, BUT I still believe that Lando is portrayed as a bad guy in the film, until he turns the tables and offers his help. Again....film mechanics, not an in-world explanation.
In-world, he has his reasons and they may in fact be well-intentioned ones. Out-of-world, he still causes harm to the protagonists by joining forces with the main villain.
But I can definitely agree to disagree....especially seeing as this IS an argument of semantics seeing as Lando's alignment was not at all the point of my original post, but rather the argument against idea that there were no characters in SW who CHANGE alignments. Lando was only one of the examples, and some of you disagree with that particular one.