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The Sequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread (Radical Ideas Welcome). — Page 8

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NeverarGreat said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

Can something be done to totally overhaul Han’s death? In the movie, he just walks into it when it’s bloody obvious he’s gonna die, and Kylo has no reason to kill him beyond being the villain and Han being a mentor figure.

Imagine if we knew in advance that Ben was more light side than dark, but kept up the charade to kill Snoke and unite the Republic and First Order in peace. Snoke would suspect that his student was false, and would demand proof of his devotion - the killing of someone he loved. Ben would be forced to choose between his vision of a unified galaxy and his own father, and in the moment he chooses his father. But at that moment the Starkiller fires and destroys the Republic capitol, killing many people whom he knew and secretly admired. The disturbance is so great that he ignites the saber without realizing it, killing his father and assuring him the trust of the Supreme Leader.

That would be the movie I’d like to see.

I like this. It would definitely be more tragic, and more consistent with Kylo’s characterization in TLJ.

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I really like Kylo’s confrontation with Han, although I was spoiled of his death before seeing the movie so it never came much of shock in the moment.

What you said above reminds me of Leia in TLJ. One of my favorite scenes in that movie is when Ben can’t shoot his mother— but his prior actions have spiraled the situation out of control so that he has no choice left.

Speaking of which- any possibilities to keep Leia dead after this tragic perfect scene? She likely won’t be in much of 9.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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I had some ideas regarding Holdo, Canto Bight, and the B Plot in general, and I wanted to share them here and get some thoughts.

This first post is going to be able most of the Poe/Holdo stuff specifically.

A lot this is going to be sorta stream of consciousness, because really it is just notes I’ve written down over the course of a few days in my spare time, so apologies in advance.

So to start off, I think a lot of these ideas go with the idea I’ve mentioned before of having additional insert shots during the battle of D’Qar that shows the First Order “slicing” into the Raddus’ navicomputer. I think this would do a lot for the movie. When Poe decides to stay and destroy the dreadnought, that gives the First Order enough time to complete their connection and track them, and this way their tracking tech feels less like it came out of nowhere.

I would also suggest cutting Hux being visibly shaken after they escape, and maybe even cut him being reprimanded by Snoke. I think it would be better if the opening battle still felt like a victory for Hux. That way, it helps justify his overconfidence and hubris during the rest of the movie. Hux’s hubris, imo, is really the most logical excuse for why the FO doesn’t try to flank the Resistance or swarm them with TIE fighters. Hux is merely overconfident and wants to relish in his victory, so any change that helps support that premise makes that idea clearer.

Later when the FO fleet shows up, Leia says, “They’ve tracked us through lightspeed.”
Cut Finn’s “that’s impossible” and cut Leia’s “yes, and they’ve done it”, and just start with Finn’s next line after that about if they jumped again they’d be screwed. Now, it makes it seem like the Resistance is a little more aware of the technology, which helps set up something for later. (ALSO, you would think Finn, of all people, would know that it might be possible)

First Holdo scene -
No ideas for any big edits yet. Maybe cut the shot of Poe looking around after she dismisses everyone. But otherwise, I don’t really see a good way to cut it. Plus, if the Resistance seems to be more aware of hyperspace tracking, then Holdo would possibly know that not only is Poe responsible for the deaths of the many Resistance pilots, but also for giving the FO enough time to track the Raddus. That, plus other reasons, like Poe immediately lying about his rank to a superior officer, and his attitude in general, you can sorta understand why Holdo would be mad. I also think the audience is meant to not like and distrust Holdo at this point, so we shouldn’t feel like she is being fair to Poe initially. In my head, I also feel that Holdo is still figuring out the details of her plan at this point. But, more of my following ideas are meant to try to make Holdo more relatable in the following scenes of her. Maybe some other people have ideas for this scene though.

In the scene where the first ship runs out of fuel, I want to add a new voice over.
Maybe in between Holdo watching the other captain die saying “Godspeed Rebels!” on the hologram, and when Connix asks what to do next, you could have an offscreen Officer say “Transports have arrived undetected.” This helps set up that Holdo knew what she was doing and was testing out her theory to see if transports could go undetected by the First Order.

I just went back and watched this scene, and Connix actually says, “Admiral, six hours of fuel left.”
I’ve mentioned this before, but I also think that any specific mention of time (like a certain amount of hours remaining) should be cut. I think how much time passes should remain ambiguous. So instead, maybe her line could be just cut down to, “Admiral…” as if she were awaiting orders, which Holdo then responds to appropriately.

Something like that might not be immediately recognized by the audience, but once her plan is revealed to Poe, it would be nice for the audience to internally go, “Ohhh, that’s what she was doing” when looking back at it.
Speaking of which, I kinda want to cut Poe’s line, “That could work” when Leia explains it to him.

Poe Makes a Scene -
*Poe barges in.
*Poe: Tell us, that there’s a plan. *[cut “that there’s hope”]
*Cut “hope is like the sun” line
*Cut Poe finishing quote
*Holdo then responds to Poe’s question with a calm “Yes”
*Cut to the shot of the computer screen with the transports on it.
*Over that shot, have Holdo start saying, “When I served under Leia, she-“
*Poe cuts her off: You’re fueling up the transports?
*Cut to Holdo, but make the shot slightly shorter, so Poe walks away before she can really say anything, instead of just staring at him.
*Poe walks up to the terminal, starts his rant. As Holdo enters the bottom of Poe’s frame, have her say “Captain” taken from the first scene, as if she is trying to talk, but Poe keeps going. By the end, when he calls her a traitor, she kicks him off the bridge for going too far.

I’d have to see it to know if it would work for sure, but this scene is meant to show Holdo trying to be a little more reasonable with Poe. Now, when Poe asks if there even is a plan, she calmly says yes. And while her next line would be the start of the whole “Hope is like the sun” line, now it can be up to interpretation. She might’ve been just saying that in this version too, but one also could interpret it as Holdo about to tell Poe that Leia told her about Crait. But, Poe being paranoid, jumped to conclusions and doesn’t give her a chance to explain. I just think this would help bridge that gap between not liking Holdo and finally liking Holdo by the end, if at this point she seems a little more reasonable.

Poe’s Mutiny -
Two options

Either keep it the same, except cut Holdo saying “I hope you know what you’re doing” and Poe’s “Yeah”. Again, not giving Holdo much of a chance to say anything. Poe just tells them to guard them and then walks toward the bridge, or just cut away from the scene before Holdo says that line. Next time we cut back to Poe, he’s walking to the bridge.

Or, don’t have Poe hold Holdo (heh) at gunpoint at all. Just cut that scene. Next time we cut to Poe, he is walking to the bridge. Cut Poe’s line “Yeah, we spoke”, probably just by cutting to the control panel shot sooner. One benefit of cutting it is that by not having Poe hold her at gunpoint, it might seem less weird for her to later say “I like him”, later after he did something so drastic.

Have him start turning off the lights in the hangar, but cut the shot of the pilots holding Holdo at gunpoint, the subsequent shoot out, Poe seeing it on the screen and telling Connix to shut the door. So now, it goes like, Hanger light #1 ‘off’, #2 ‘off’, then cut back to Connix shutting the bridge door.
Between then and when they start burning through the door, you could either add knocking on the door, or maybe some kind alarm sound to show that the Resistance has caught on to Poe hijacking the ship.
Maybe use this Tantive IV alarm sound. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lq_voGkLFD8

Later on, at some point once Holdo sits in the captain’s chair to turn the Raddus around, generate a new shot using the insert of the captain’s chair screen from Poe’s hijacking scene. This time, the shot will show the Raddus pointing toward the Supremecy, but the line of the Raddus’ hyperspace trajectory is lining up with a blue blinking dot that is inside the Supremecy. So during the build up toward the ramming, we’ll see this shot, a repeated shot of the active tracker, and then show it again when she goes to lightspeed, we’ll cut back to it very briefly right as she jumps, and the tracker will flash in a bright white light.

I had made this suggestion awhile back on the TLJ ideas thread, but EddieDean recently suggested the same thing. He worded it very nicely.

EddieDean said:

Regarding the Holdo hyperspace ram and the new hyperspace tracking, maybe these could be tied together. I like the earlier suggestion that hyperspace tracking requires something hyperspatial on the tracking ship (rather than the tracked one), but maybe that could become the weakness that the Raddus uses to attack it directly. Perhaps as Holdo prepares the attack, we could cut to a Raddus screen with some imagery making it clear that it’s locked on to the FO ship’s hyperspace tracker. Perhaps even with a further shot of the tracker itself, just to hammer it home. That would neatly explain why this technique hasn’t been used elsewhere, when it seems like such a powerful but accessible weapon.

It really fits in well with the idea that the bad guy’s technology also carries the seed of the downfall. I was also thinking that you could put a version of that Supremecy graphic with a blue dot inside it (representing the active tracker/hyperspace anomaly), or maybe with a graphic of the active tracker alongside it, in an earlier scene to help imply that Holdo was studying the Supremecy. Maybe in the scene where Poe has his tantrum, you could put this Supremecy graphic on the screen next to the one that shows the transports.

And when Holdo rams into the Supremecy, you could have it where it looks like the ship began splitting halfway through the ship rather than all the way through it. This would be another little thing that helps imply that the Raddus hit the tracker, that is in the middle of the ship, rather than the ship just going right through it.

And possibly, but not necessary, you could superimpose a blue hyperspace tunnel-like effect inside the active tracker array window, to help visually infer that it is connected to hyperspace, sorta like they’ve created a hyperspace bubble inside the ship. Or you could possibly give the room a blue tone.

If you have any thoughts about these ideas please share them.

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 (Edited)

Another question,

Regarding the third flashback scene in The Last Jedi. If you didn’t change anything about, but added very quick flashes of Ben becoming Kylo Ren and killing people, do you think it would improve that scene or detract from it?

I’ve had some conversations with people who have said they might have understood Luke more if they were shown was look saw. Do you agree or disagree?

If one were to do this, I think very quick, almost subliminal, flashes on the beat of the score would be the most effective way of doing this without covering Mark Hamill’s performance. And as far as the flashes go, what shots would work well with this idea?

Here are some ideas:

  • Reverse shot of Kylo taking his mask off so he is putting it on.
  • Kylo swinging saber down on Lor San Tekka
  • Shot of Kylo from TFA teaser
  • Poe screaming during interrogation
  • Kylo stabbing Clan Leader from Rey’s vision.
  • Kylo and the Knights of Ren from Rey’s vision.
  • Kylo on the Finalizer looking at Starkiller laser.
  • Starkiller destroying Hosnian Prime.
  • Evil-looking shots of Adam Driver’s face.
  • Kylo slicing up Finn.
  • A close-up shot of Luke’s dead students in front of the burning temple (possibly remove R2).
  • Kylo stabbing Han.
  • Leia apparently dying on Raddus bridge or dead in space, or killed on a transport or on Crait.
  • Possible deleted/BTS footage.
  • Possible Episode IX footage

I think around 6-8 shots would be enough. 7 might be the sweet spot. Personally, I think showing Han and Leia “dying” might seem weird, especially if Luke foresaw their deaths specifically and still decided to go into hiding know that possible future.

But here is what Luke says during that scene to get an idea of what Luke might’ve saw:

I saw darkness. I sensed it building in him. I’d seen it in moments during his training. But then I looked inside, and it was beyond what I ever imagined. Snoke had already turned his heart. He would bring destruction and pain and death, and the end of everything I love because of what he will become, and for the briefest moment of pure instinct, I thought I could stop it. It passed like a fleeting shadow, and I was left with shame and with consequence. And the last thing I saw were the eyes of a frightened boy whose Master had failed him.

It definitely seems like Luke was getting glimpses of Ben’s future when he looked into his mind. And the line “everything I love” would likely include Han and Leia, but I definitely think that at least includes his Temple and all of his students.

What are your thoughts on this?

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Thanks. I think this is how I want to approach edits for TLJ. Try to address the issues a lot of people had with the movie without fundamentally changing the director’s vision.

Did you have any thoughts about showing/not showing Han and Leia “dying”?

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RogueLeader said:

Did you have any thoughts about showing/not showing Han and Leia “dying”?

I think flashes of Han getting stabbed immediately followed by the Raddus bridge explosion would be effective where Luke says “destroy everything I love”. It would add some emotional reasoning in favor of Luke’s momentary awakening. Just as long we have already seen these sequences, and are not spoiled.

Here’s a random idea I just had: it’s a bit strange for Ben to just happen to make up at the perfect time. What if instead, a mysterious dark voice said “awaken” or something of sorts? It could be inferred as Snoke (already in his mind) tricking the young Jedi. Might make it more tragic and less coincidence.

Vader, a 7 in 1 edit of the entire Star Wars Saga

Maul, a clone wars edit

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Thanks for the input.

Hmm, that is an interesting thought. You could pull “awaken” from Snoke’s dialogue from TFA. Although I think the whish of Luke’s lightsaber activating probably woke Kylo up.

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RogueLeader said:

Thanks. I think this is how I want to approach edits for TLJ. Try to address the issues a lot of people had with the movie without fundamentally changing the director’s vision.

That’s an interesting way to phrase that. Are these issues you had too or are you trying to devise some sort of “crowd pleasing” edit?

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Eh, it is hard to say.

A lot of the common issues people bring up didn’t really bother me when I watched it initially. But over time I’ve read/heard fair arguments for why certain things didn’t work for them. But I think that a lot of those people would’ve been okay with those things if there was bit more clarity or restraint.

But I guess you can say it is in a way trying to please crowds, but a lot of people still might not be pleased with my restrained approach if they have their mind already set on certain things they don’t like about the movie.

One example is Rose saving Finn. I knew from my first screening that a lot of people wouldn’t like it, and I’ll admit it is a little cheesy. There have been a lot of edits that have tried to address this, but I try to go back to the original question of why it didn’t work for people. The most common answer I hear is that it wasn’t clear enough that Finn wouldn’t have stopped the cannon. So, what would be the smallest change that would have the biggest impact on addressing this issue?

That is really what an editor’s job is. Trying to make what is there, work. An editor needs restraint just as much as a director, and understanding their vision can help keep you grounded.

And there is also something satisfying about finding simple/clever solutions to problems rather than having to move mountains in order to address them.

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What I’m getting is that you’d like an edit that’s basically the original but with small changes such that if people had seen that version in theaters, they probably wouldn’t have even wanted the bigger changes some are suggesting?

Interesting approach if so, ultimately a bit of a thought experiment, which I’ve definitely considered. There are obviously a handful of big things that rubbed some people the wrong way that potentially could have had easy fixes (Holdo not explaining her plan, Luke contemplating killing Ben, Rose stopping Finn). But see for me when I watch the film I get it, so in my mind they don’t need to be addressed further. But it is hard not to imagine if Rian had slipped in a couple extra lines of dialogue here, couple extra visuals here, if he could have nipped some of the haters in the bud by basically explaining what was happening more clearly.

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That is exactly it! While I do think more people will come around to the film overtime, as people move on and then look back at it in retrospect, I can’t help but wonder if some things had been made a little clearer from the beginning that there wouldn’t be as much criticism.

I’m not saying I’m against radical changes, there are some more radical changes that I like for the prequels, and I would argue TFA: Restructured itself is a pretty big departure from the theatrical, but I don’t think a lot of people understand what TLJ was going for. I think the ideas of the film work, but maybe more people would’ve understood it if the film had spelled some things out just a bit more for the audience. You have to admit that for a two and a half hour film, there is a lot to digest.

And I’m not necessarily saying even certain small changes are necessary to improve the film, but I think they would be at least worth experimenting with to see how people respond to them. If I, or someone else, could make an edit that could make fans come around to TLJ more, then I would be pretty happy with that.

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 (Edited)

Back to the idea of red leafed Takodana, maybe we can sample Daisy saying the word “life” to change Rey’s line to “I never knew there was this much life in the whole galaxy.” Then we can make Takodana whatever color we want. Purple, even.

Or we could keep lives simple and just call Takodana Naboo.

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I think I would just cut the line out altogether. Probably would be easier!

I would definitely have to see how that would look though. I think making Takodana red would be a lot easier than making D’Qar red, because D’Qar has a very blue horizon that would be hard to change. And with D’Qar, I would even recommend trying to desaturate the green a little bit, maybe make the grass look yellow almost. It might make D’Qar feel more like a grassland planet like Dantooine rather than a jungle-world like Yavin.

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The effect might bleed into the horizon, or at least that’s what I would worry about.

Hot take: The Force Awakens is in no way, shape or form a rehash or remake of A New Hope.
It’s no more derivative than the average sequel, and is certainly less derivative than the prequels.

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How hard would it actually be to make 3PO’s arm red in TLJ?

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DominicCobb said:

How hard would it actually be to make 3PO’s arm red in TLJ?

I know we’ve talked about this before but I agree that I kinda wish they would have stuck with the red arm. It helps make the Resistance feel even more scrappy. Leia’s so desperate for funds that she can’t afford to get 3PO’s arm replaced (You also wonder if they even manufacture parts for his model anymore. I guess they could’ve just painted it gold?).

My first thought would be to rotoscope the arm, which would definitely be tedious, like Anakin said. Although it may be the simplest solution, wouldn’t the arm still be shiny? So it still wouldn’t match the dull red arm from TFA.

There might be to other options.
One, you could find/make a CG model of the arm, and then insert it into scenes, and then just rotoscope objects that move in front of it.

The second option would be to actually make a red arm, and have someone wear it in front of a green screen, then try to replicate 3PO’s movements in the film.

At least with these two options, you at least don’t have to rotoscope around 3PO’s arm frame-by-frame, you’d just throw the new asset on top of the existing arm and then just rotoscope around the occasional obstruction.

Even if you were to do all of this work, you’d still have to decide what to do about Episode IX, since he won’t have his red arm there either. I guess you could say he got his arm replaced in the 8-9 interim rather than between two brief scenes in TFA, since there would actually be more time (presumably a year) to have gotten his arm fixed.

Unless someone wanted to put the work in themselves, it just seems like a lot of effort that could be put towards something more significant than that. Maybe at the very least, someone could make 3PO’s arm red in his last shot of TFA and assume it was fixed between 7-8, but again, I don’t know if that makes a significant difference.

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You’d have to rotoscope I think, the other options are pretty impractical. It’s just something I haven’t really done before so I’m curious about how tricky it’d be.

It’s not that big a deal, no, but considering how little I feel these films need changing it’s actually very high on my list. As for IX, a time gap is a perfect explanation for fixing it. It’s just weird and doesn’t make sense why he gets the gold back at the end of TFA (plus I actually quite like the look of the red).

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Maybe someone could do a test of one shot just to see the effort needed and how it actually looks?