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The Rise Of Skywalker — Official Review and Opinions Thread — Page 31

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Sorry, but I don’t really understand that complaint (about Rey killing Palpatine). What was Rey supposed to do, say “I won’t kill you because I’m good” and hope that Palpatine spontaneously combusts? Luke had Vader to help him, Rey had no one there for her. I don’t see how it violates Lucas’s saga if killing Palpatine was literally her only option.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

Sorry, but I don’t really understand that complaint (about Rey killing Palpatine). What was Rey supposed to do, say “I won’t kill you because I’m good” and hope that Palpatine spontaneously combusts? Luke had Vader to help him, Rey had no one there for her. I don’t see how it violates Lucas’s saga if killing Palpatine was literally her only option.

Regardless of how the larger saga portrays the Jedi ideal, even within this film it doesn’t make sense as a resolution. Palpatine wants Rey to kill him, and she proves him wrong by… doing exactly that.

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It’s more that the story boxed itself into that corner to begin with, not that the character should have chosen another option in the story as it exists now, it’s the story itself that took a shallow path.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Palpatine wanted Rey to complete the silly ritual. She did not do that. And Palpatine was killed from his own lightning directed back into his ugly mug.

heil Palpatine!

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krausfadr said:

Palpatine wanted Rey to complete the silly ritual. She did not do that. And Palpatine was killed from his own lightning directed back into his ugly mug.

Okay so she still killed him, just not in the specific way Palpatine wanted. So she won on a technicality. Not really a huge victory for her character though is it?

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DominicCobb said:

krausfadr said:

Palpatine wanted Rey to complete the silly ritual. She did not do that. And Palpatine was killed from his own lightning directed back into his ugly mug.

Okay so she still killed him, just not in the specific way Palpatine wanted. So she won on a technicality. Not really a huge victory for her character though is it?

Exactly.

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DominicCobb said:

Okay so she still killed him, just not in the specific way Palpatine wanted. So she won on a technicality. Not really a huge victory for her character though is it?

Failure would have been using the dark side or becoming a Sith, etc. Jedi’s are not pacifists. They all make their own personal handheld decapitation machine. So yes, melting Palpatine’s face off, accomplishing something even Yoda could not do, that’s a huge victory for her character. From scavenger to savior of the Jedi Order.

heil Palpatine!

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krausfadr said:

DominicCobb said:

Okay so she still killed him, just not in the specific way Palpatine wanted. So she won on a technicality. Not really a huge victory for her character though is it?

Failure would have been using the dark side or becoming a Sith, etc. Jedi’s are not pacifists. They all make their own personal handheld decapitation machine. So yes, melting Palpatine’s face off, accomplishing something even Yoda could not do, that’s a huge victory for her character. From scavenger to savior of the Jedi Order.

Except for the fact, that he died before, so killing him again doesn’t have much of an impact anymore, and there’s nothing in the film, that suggests he can’t come back again. Also, had Rey not confronted him, and just joined the space battle, his fleet would still have been destroyed, and Ben Solo would be redeemed, and still be alive. Once Palps fleet had been destroyed, they could have just bombed the Sith Temple to kingdom come.

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DrDre that’s a different issue you’re bringing up now. Should the brilliant Star Wars writing team have resurrected Palpatine? No. On top of that should they have made Palpatine a key part of the first scenes? Definitely no.

heil Palpatine!

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Lol, omg you’re right. Hell, they could’ve hijacked even one of those Star Destroyers and just blown up Exegol.

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krausfadr said:

DominicCobb said:

Okay so she still killed him, just not in the specific way Palpatine wanted. So she won on a technicality. Not really a huge victory for her character though is it?

Failure would have been using the dark side or becoming a Sith, etc. Jedi’s are not pacifists. They all make their own personal handheld decapitation machine. So yes, melting Palpatine’s face off, accomplishing something even Yoda could not do, that’s a huge victory for her character. From scavenger to savior of the Jedi Order.

Pacifism is clearly the Jedi ideal. I actually think Rey finding a way to set aside her lightsaber would have been a better resolution, and a more interesting path for her to take the Jedi order in.

Simply being able to kill the big bad guy is terribly unimaginative and un-meaningful as a victory for the character and for the Jedi as a whole.

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DominicCobb said:

Pacifism is clearly the Jedi ideal. I actually think Rey finding a way to set aside her lightsaber would have been a better resolution, and a more interesting path for her to take the Jedi order in.

Simply being able to kill the big bad guy is terribly unimaginative and un-meaningful as a victory for the character and for the Jedi as a whole.

Maybe we will learn about those ideals in the some upcoming pre-prequels in a galaxy long long long ago. That would be cool. I agree it would be a great direction to set aside the lightsaber.

heil Palpatine!

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krausfadr said:

DominicCobb said:

Pacifism is clearly the Jedi ideal. I actually think Rey finding a way to set aside her lightsaber would have been a better resolution, and a more interesting path for her to take the Jedi order in.

Simply being able to kill the big bad guy is terribly unimaginative and un-meaningful as a victory for the character and for the Jedi as a whole.

Maybe we will learn about those ideals in the some upcoming pre-prequels in a galaxy long long long ago. That would be cool. I agree it would be a great direction to set aside the lightsaber.

If you are unaware of the pacifist ideology of the jedi, I suggest watching The Empire Strikes Back.

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“Knowledge and defense” Yoda was certainly a pacifist in his older, wiser years after he was decapitating clones. Though old, wise Ben sliced off a drunk jerk’s arm on his first outing with young Luke. Your point is well taken; Yoda’s words being spoken by Luke would have been a great final lesson for Rey, lay down your weapons and nothing can hurt you when you are one with the Force. Ultimately that’s what Luke did in his final battle: he fought with no actual weapon but with his words.

heil Palpatine!

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After thinking about it for a while, I came up with an alternate defeat for Palpatine, that fits with both Rey and Finn’s character arcs:

Sometime during the final battle, Finn and Jannah hack into the main Star Destroyer. They deactivate the microchips that are making the Sith cultists obey Palpatine, and when the chips are deactivated they obey Finn instead.

Meanwhile on the Sith temple, Palpatine is trying to convince Rey to strike him down (Ben doesn’t go to Exegol in this version). Just when Rey’s about to kill him, she senses Finn, who tells her that they’re about to fire the Sith fleet’s main cannons at the temple, killing Palpatine. He tells her to get out before it’s too late.

Palpatine is frustrated at Rey’s delay, and orders her to make the sacrifice. Instead, she puts her saber away and says, “I won’t kill you, but I’m not going to save you.” She runs away as fast as possible, leaving a bewildered Palpatine to be annihilated by his own fleet.

It’s kind of rough, but I think it works. It allows Rey to fulfill the Jedi teachings, and it gives Finn something important to do for once.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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To me, the solution would have been simple.

When Rey goes to Ahch-to, she’s avoiding her fears, but she should have also been having a crisis of faith in the power of the Force (which Luke helps restore by lifting the X-wing).

At the end, to complete her journey, she decides not to avoid her fear, but also not to try to use brute force to overcome it. As Luke should have done in the cave in TESB, she doesn’t use her saber, and puts her trust solely in the force. When Palpatine starts shooting her with lightning, she turns off her saber and lets the lightning strike her - but it doesn’t, her faith is rewarded and it phases through her, Luke on Crait style (but without the need for astral projection). The lightning going through Rey destroys the temple and kills Palpatine.

People would have hated it, but it would’ve been pretty cool and a fitting conclusion.

As for Finn, instead of making the ‘I’m staying behind’ sacrifice move to destroy the star destroyers, the star destroyers should’ve all been goners, but he stays behind to hijack their comms and send a message to all the stormtroopers that the war is lost and they should abandon their posts and save their lives rather than go down with their destroyers. Something like that.

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DominicCobb said:

To me, the solution would have been simple.

When Rey goes to Ahch-to, she’s avoiding her fears, but she should have also been having a crisis of faith in the power of the Force (which Luke helps restore by lifting the X-wing).

At the end, to complete her journey, she decides not to avoid her fear, but also not to try to use brute force to overcome it. As Luke should have done in the cave in TESB, she doesn’t use her saber, and puts her trust solely in the force. When Palpatine starts shooting her with lightning, she turns off her saber and lets the lightning strike her - but it doesn’t, her faith is rewarded and it phases through her, Luke on Crait style (but without the need for astral projection). The lightning going through Rey destroys the temple and kills Palpatine.

People would have hated it, but it would’ve been pretty cool and a fitting conclusion.

Eh, feels too much like a deus ex machina for me. I’d prefer for Force powers to have some sense of realism, rather than just being a get-out-of-jail-free card for true believers. Plus, if you can’t get hit by lightning when you trust yourself in the light side, why did Luke get hit by lightning in ROTJ?

As for Finn, instead of making the ‘I’m staying behind’ sacrifice move to destroy the star destroyers, the star destroyers should’ve all been goners, but he stays behind to hijack their comms and send a message to all the stormtroopers that the war is lost and they should abandon their posts and save their lives rather than go down with their destroyers. Something like that.

I tried to do a more extreme version of that in the rewrite I just posted. Finn doesn’t sacrifice himself, and the fleet doesn’t get blown up. Instead, he persuades the Sith cultists to rebel against their master, using the fleet to destroy Palpatine. I think that’s the most fulfilling possible evolution of Finn’s arc.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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Interesting. I like where you’re going with the Finn idea. Imagine if when the communication tower switched signals, instead of Finn just getting a “feeling” about where the new signal is being broadcast, Finn gets the idea to use the communication tower instead of blasting it. They land, infiltrate the tower, and he broadcasts a message to all the the Star Destroyers, telling all the stormtroopers to stand up and fight. Perhaps Finn’s earlier conversation with Jannah could foreshadow this idea, maybe when Jannah explains why they laid their weapons down.

Then we cut to the all the troopers in the destroyers, listening, and eventually rebelling.

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

To me, the solution would have been simple.

When Rey goes to Ahch-to, she’s avoiding her fears, but she should have also been having a crisis of faith in the power of the Force (which Luke helps restore by lifting the X-wing).

At the end, to complete her journey, she decides not to avoid her fear, but also not to try to use brute force to overcome it. As Luke should have done in the cave in TESB, she doesn’t use her saber, and puts her trust solely in the force. When Palpatine starts shooting her with lightning, she turns off her saber and lets the lightning strike her - but it doesn’t, her faith is rewarded and it phases through her, Luke on Crait style (but without the need for astral projection). The lightning going through Rey destroys the temple and kills Palpatine.

People would have hated it, but it would’ve been pretty cool and a fitting conclusion.

Eh, feels too much like a deus ex machina for me. I’d prefer for Force powers to have some sense of realism, rather than just being a get-out-of-jail-free card for true believers. Plus, if you can’t get hit by lightning when you trust yourself in the light side, why did Luke get hit by lightning in ROTJ?

Yeah I don’t really care about that, to me it feels like a proper step up from the last film (and would’ve have made her death by exhaustion make a lot more sense). Plus she’s got the thousand generations living inside her or whatever.

Regardless, there are a few ways to accomplish the same idea. Her life-force creates a shield, or the ghosts of the Jedi block the blasts (ROTJ early draft style).

As for Finn, instead of making the ‘I’m staying behind’ sacrifice move to destroy the star destroyers, the star destroyers should’ve all been goners, but he stays behind to hijack their comms and send a message to all the stormtroopers that the war is lost and they should abandon their posts and save their lives rather than go down with their destroyers. Something like that.

I tried to do a more extreme version of that in the rewrite I just posted. Finn doesn’t sacrifice himself, and the fleet doesn’t get blown up. Instead, he persuades the Sith cultists to rebel against their master, using the fleet to destroy Palpatine. I think that’s the most fulfilling possible evolution of Finn’s arc.

I think the microchip thing is kinda goofy in general (though I get why they did it in TCW) and I think for his climactic heroic act to be simply “saving” the stormtroopers to be a lot cleaner than getting them to blow shit up. To clarify as well I’m working from a place of simply a small change to the preexisting film that would’ve made it better. If it was up to me things would have been way different top to bottom.

RogueLeader said:

Interesting. I like where you’re going with the Finn idea. Imagine if when the communication tower switched signals, instead of Finn just getting a “feeling” about where the new signal is being broadcast, Finn gets the idea to use the communication tower instead of blasting it. They land, infiltrate the tower, and he broadcasts a message to all the the Star Destroyers, telling all the stormtroopers to stand up and fight. Perhaps Finn’s earlier conversation with Jannah could foreshadow this idea, maybe when Jannah explains why they laid their weapons down.

Then we cut to the all the troopers in the destroyers, listening, and eventually rebelling.

Exactly. Seems like such an obvious missed opportunity to me.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

To me, the solution would have been simple.

When Rey goes to Ahch-to, she’s avoiding her fears, but she should have also been having a crisis of faith in the power of the Force (which Luke helps restore by lifting the X-wing).

At the end, to complete her journey, she decides not to avoid her fear, but also not to try to use brute force to overcome it. As Luke should have done in the cave in TESB, she doesn’t use her saber, and puts her trust solely in the force. When Palpatine starts shooting her with lightning, she turns off her saber and lets the lightning strike her - but it doesn’t, her faith is rewarded and it phases through her, Luke on Crait style (but without the need for astral projection). The lightning going through Rey destroys the temple and kills Palpatine.

People would have hated it, but it would’ve been pretty cool and a fitting conclusion.

Eh, feels too much like a deus ex machina for me. I’d prefer for Force powers to have some sense of realism, rather than just being a get-out-of-jail-free card for true believers. Plus, if you can’t get hit by lightning when you trust yourself in the light side, why did Luke get hit by lightning in ROTJ?

Yeah I don’t really care about that, to me it feels like a proper step up from the last film (and would’ve have made her death by exhaustion make a lot more sense). Plus she’s got the thousand generations living inside her or whatever.

Regardless, there are a few ways to accomplish the same idea. Her life-force creates a shield, or the ghosts of the Jedi block the blasts (ROTJ early draft style).

I disagree, I think that the “always make it one step up from what happened before” attitude was what made the movie so unfulfilling in the first place. It doesn’t make narrative or dramatic sense for Rey to just magically not die. The Force ghost idea might be better though, Jonh in the fanedit thread already did something like that.

RogueLeader said:

Interesting. I like where you’re going with the Finn idea. Imagine if when the communication tower switched signals, instead of Finn just getting a “feeling” about where the new signal is being broadcast, Finn gets the idea to use the communication tower instead of blasting it. They land, infiltrate the tower, and he broadcasts a message to all the the Star Destroyers, telling all the stormtroopers to stand up and fight. Perhaps Finn’s earlier conversation with Jannah could foreshadow this idea, maybe when Jannah explains why they laid their weapons down.

Then we cut to the all the troopers in the destroyers, listening, and eventually rebelling.

Exactly. Seems like such an obvious missed opportunity to me.

Also agreed. That might be a better way to have the Sith cultists rebel, and Finn be responsible for Palpatine’s death. I’m still committed to that idea though.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX

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StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

To me, the solution would have been simple.

When Rey goes to Ahch-to, she’s avoiding her fears, but she should have also been having a crisis of faith in the power of the Force (which Luke helps restore by lifting the X-wing).

At the end, to complete her journey, she decides not to avoid her fear, but also not to try to use brute force to overcome it. As Luke should have done in the cave in TESB, she doesn’t use her saber, and puts her trust solely in the force. When Palpatine starts shooting her with lightning, she turns off her saber and lets the lightning strike her - but it doesn’t, her faith is rewarded and it phases through her, Luke on Crait style (but without the need for astral projection). The lightning going through Rey destroys the temple and kills Palpatine.

People would have hated it, but it would’ve been pretty cool and a fitting conclusion.

Eh, feels too much like a deus ex machina for me. I’d prefer for Force powers to have some sense of realism, rather than just being a get-out-of-jail-free card for true believers. Plus, if you can’t get hit by lightning when you trust yourself in the light side, why did Luke get hit by lightning in ROTJ?

Yeah I don’t really care about that, to me it feels like a proper step up from the last film (and would’ve have made her death by exhaustion make a lot more sense). Plus she’s got the thousand generations living inside her or whatever.

Regardless, there are a few ways to accomplish the same idea. Her life-force creates a shield, or the ghosts of the Jedi block the blasts (ROTJ early draft style).

I disagree, I think that the “always make it one step up from what happened before” attitude was what made the movie so unfulfilling in the first place. It doesn’t make narrative or dramatic sense for Rey to just magically not die. The Force ghost idea might be better though, Jonh in the fanedit thread already did something like that.

Did you miss the part where I said she still dies? In my mind it’s the final installment there’s a license to show something we’ve never seen before. And I think I pretty well explained the narrative and dramatic sense for it.

Not that any of this matters of course.

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DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

StarkillerAG said:

DominicCobb said:

To me, the solution would have been simple.

When Rey goes to Ahch-to, she’s avoiding her fears, but she should have also been having a crisis of faith in the power of the Force (which Luke helps restore by lifting the X-wing).

At the end, to complete her journey, she decides not to avoid her fear, but also not to try to use brute force to overcome it. As Luke should have done in the cave in TESB, she doesn’t use her saber, and puts her trust solely in the force. When Palpatine starts shooting her with lightning, she turns off her saber and lets the lightning strike her - but it doesn’t, her faith is rewarded and it phases through her, Luke on Crait style (but without the need for astral projection). The lightning going through Rey destroys the temple and kills Palpatine.

People would have hated it, but it would’ve been pretty cool and a fitting conclusion.

Eh, feels too much like a deus ex machina for me. I’d prefer for Force powers to have some sense of realism, rather than just being a get-out-of-jail-free card for true believers. Plus, if you can’t get hit by lightning when you trust yourself in the light side, why did Luke get hit by lightning in ROTJ?

Yeah I don’t really care about that, to me it feels like a proper step up from the last film (and would’ve have made her death by exhaustion make a lot more sense). Plus she’s got the thousand generations living inside her or whatever.

Regardless, there are a few ways to accomplish the same idea. Her life-force creates a shield, or the ghosts of the Jedi block the blasts (ROTJ early draft style).

I disagree, I think that the “always make it one step up from what happened before” attitude was what made the movie so unfulfilling in the first place. It doesn’t make narrative or dramatic sense for Rey to just magically not die. The Force ghost idea might be better though, Jonh in the fanedit thread already did something like that.

Did you miss the part where I said she still dies? In my mind it’s the final installment there’s a license to show something we’ve never seen before. And I think I pretty well explained the narrative and dramatic sense for it.

Not that any of this matters of course.

I think it would have been far more interesting, if Rey lost her Force powers, when Kylo Ren became Ben Solo again, since she got the powers to compensate for the rising darkness (she’s not a Palpatine, but still Rey from nowhere, who has no stakes in the story, which is why she was chosen), but she decides to confront Palpatine anyway to divert his attention. Ben Solo goes after her, and convinces Palpatine to let Rey live, by allowing Palpatine’s spirit to possess him. As this happens what remains of Ben tells Rey, that it will only be a matter of time before he is consumed, and she should kill him. She does, and Palpatine’s spirit tries to get back to the clone body, but Rey destroys it before he can enter the clone. Being without a vessel for his spirit, the Force ghosts of the Jedi appear, and destroy Palpatine’s spirit. The Force ghosts tell Rey, that she has brought balance to the Force, and it is time for the Jedi to end. Being the Chosen One was never about lifting rocks, but about courage, compassion, and self-sacrifice. It was never the intention of the Whills for the Force to be so concentrated in an individual in the physical realm, but when the Fallen One, a Whill intent on dominating that realm, possessed the person, that would willingly become the first Sith Lord, and started grooming his next vessel by allowing him access to these powers, the Jedi were created to counter the threat of the Sith. Now that the Fallen One has truly been destroyed as the prophesy predicted, the Jedi are no longer needed. The Force ghosts, which now include Ben Solo ask Rey to pass on what she has learned, thus ending the Skywalker saga.

I think such an ending would give meaning to the films, that preceeded it, and the saga as a whole. Anakin was a false prophet, created by Palpatine as a Troyan horse, but Anakin altered his destiny, by saving his son, and destroying Palpatine’s body, severely weakening him, and forcing him to inhabit a broken degenerating clone body, ending the cycle of the rule of two. It gives more meaning to the rule of two itself, and explains why Palpatine wanted to replace Vader with Luke, because Vader was useless as a vessel after he was barbecued. It gives meaning to Luke’s statements in TLJ, showing that Luke was on the right track, but did not know how the pieces fit, and in a warped way so was Kylo Ren. It gives meaning to the concepts of Force ghosts, who turn out to be the Whills, the next stage of existence. Finally, it gives the saga a true sense of finality.

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I guess I just don’t understand Jedi pacifism. It’s okay to go around fighting with swords or killing clones/stormtroopers - and taking out an entire Death Star full of people gets one a rousing cheer and a soothing Obi Wan voiceover. But if you’re stuck alone in a room with the two most evil guys in the galaxy who are on a killing spree, apparently retaliatory aggression is a path to eternal darkness.

I loved the showdown in TROS. Firstly Rey was actually tempted with an impossible choice rather than being simply goaded into anger. Secondly her actions had a direct bearing on the battle. Thirdly she made the ultimate sacrifice - she died! You don’t get more selfless than that.

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Shopping Maul said:

I guess I just don’t understand Jedi pacifism. It’s okay to go around fighting with swords or killing clones/stormtroopers - and taking out an entire Death Star full of people gets one a rousing cheer and a soothing Obi Wan voiceover. But if you’re stuck alone in a room with the two most evil guys in the galaxy who are on a killing spree, apparently retaliatory aggression is a path to eternal darkness.

Yeah, I kind of agree. The “kill him and you’ll be just like him” trope doesn’t really hold up to close scrutiny, especially when the hero has slaughtered hundreds of nameless soldiers already. But I would like a more creative version of Palpatine’s demise, rather than just deflecting lightning at his face again.

My preferred Skywalker Saga experience:
I II III IV V VI VII VIII IX