The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 56

fishmanlee said:

in the phantom menace could a scene be incoporated of maul throwing his saber at obi or qui-gon?

Find a way and im sure i can work on it ;)

-Angel

ben_danger said:

yay! thanks for reading the mini essay SSWR!;) snape really hits the nail on the head. ultimatley now we understand and pity him the most. i agree the second one is a little ambitious. the essense though is to make us feel like the happy ending we might intially expect is merely seconds away, only for a tragic avalanche to hit straight afterwards, which could perhaps be gained through other means. i can imagine that maybe everyone seems relieved that the war is over, but mace is still pursuing his sith theories.

it may give "if what you have told me is true, then you have gained my trust" some added significance.

 Cool yeah I know what you're aiming for as far as the feeling and attitude of the movie goes...and I hope it's doable...

More thoughts on Windu: There are too many times to count in the PT when Yoda and Windu exchage glances...now with this new take on Windu these glances *could* take on new meaning. Maybe Yoda is giving Mace a chance to prove himself with these theories...? Hmmm...I will soon need to elaborate on an idea I have had for a new scene in TPM that could help with these ideas and better establish the Jedi/jedi order...  ;)

guitarfan01 said:

This is mildly off the topic of Bobago Fett, that is, it has nothing to do with it (If we're taking votes, I'm definately on the side of it being Boba in both AotC and ESB, I think it adds to the character, and I love the mockups ben_danger has put together), but on the subject of Order 66, is it possible to have the Jedi Purge initiated by Palpatine behind Anakin's back?  Leave off all the "we must now kill all the Jedi" drivel; I never thought it was well-reasoned, and even in Anakin's very suggestible state at the time, I don't believe that he would just rush off to kill younglings.  If Sidious initiates it behind his back, he can then say to Anakin later that he had evidence that the Jedi as a group were dangerous or whatever, blah, blah, blah.  The way Anakin just agrees to execute them all without even a flinch doesn't match the character in the rest of the prequels.  I would, however, believe that he would rush off to Mustafar to execute the Separatist leaders on Palpatine's say-so.  There's also so much extraneous dialogue in that sequence, I would suggest removing as much of Palpy's figurative mustache twirling as possible.

Even the storming of the temple might work as part of the basic order 66 montage if we leave off the scene of Anakin killing the kids (say, if we could get Palpatine to say something like "Go to the temple.  Then go to Mustafar and wipe out the Separatist leaders" (a paraphrase).  Anakin and the 501st might even be able to take the temple without much blood: after all, Anakin is a member of the Jedi Council and a legally-recognized advisor to the Chancellor.  The slaughter could begin after he leaves, and he could ostensibly be there just to revoke their "badges" or military commissions or something.  I don't know.  I'm mostly just brainstorming right now.  I will see if I can work on a script or slap a basic proof-of-concept edit on it.

If all of this didn't hinge on the logical leap of "the Jedi Council didn't tell me about their plans to confront Palpatine, and Mace tried to make the same choice about Sidious as I did about Dooku, so obviously now I need to slaughter every last child in the Jedi Temple" I wouldn't have a problem with it, but as it is, I can't take it at all.

Ahhh, this brings some interesting ideas.... what if Palpatine tells Anakin that the Seperatists/Federation raided the Jedi Temple and killed everyone?  That would surely send him into a rage to kill every last one of them (the Seperatists, that is).  Then, when Obi shows up to "bring them to justice", Obi tells him Palpatine set him up and it was P that had the Jedi temple destroyed.

I would also have Tarkin be the one who finds Anakin/Vader near death and brings him back to life; thus, the loyalty seen in ANH and why he is willing to play second fiddle to Tarkin.  You still wouldn't have to show the Vader suit, but just showing Tarkin with a group of troopers coming over to Anakin's body would be enough.

Bingowings said:

I remember back around the time of TPM some magazine carried a picture of a plain steel looking Fett helmet and armour which (like Jengo) had no dings or dents in it. No paint just shiny metal.

Did I dream it or does anyone else remember what I'm talking about?

 

On a different note it kind of came up over in the ESB/ROTJ wishlist thread so I'm going to post it here.

A lot of people don't like the dreams/flashforwards/visions in ROTS and feel they are out of place in the Star Wars universe.

At the risk of being branded a heretic, the cave sequence in ESB is a form of dream/vision but it's done in a completely different way.

If we saw Anakin's dreams of his mother and Padme in a more stylised and dreamlike manner with symbolism and ambiguity (rather than just a clipshow with a wobbly distortion) like Luke's vision of his head inside Vader's mask would that be more acceptable?

I seem to remember that in the novelisation of AOTC Anakin dreamt of his mother turning into glass and shattering (or was that somewhere else?).

These could become mini-projects in their own right.

How could they be done?

It's our chance to put a bit of David Lynch into Star Wars all those years after he turned down ROTJ.

A way you could work this in is in the same way it was done in EMPIRE: it is a "Kobiyashi Maru" in the Jedi temple that Yoda sends aspiring students through.  You could FX in a tree in the middle of the Jedi temple surrounded by a mist or swampy area (not just a simple tree mind you).  Anakin walks in and has his vision - maybe he fights a black cloaked figure or multiple cloaked figures.  When he cuts them down, he sees that they all have faces of those he cares about: Obi, Padme, his mom, etc.

And I vote for the Jedi Temple blowing up and being blamed on the Seperatists/Federation ala Ben_Danger's and Bingowing's suggestions.

in fact, could we change "seperatists" with "rebels" or "federation"?  For some reason the word Seperatist just doesn't have the same oomph as the other words when describing either an outside or internal threat to the Republic/Empire.  In fact I think it would be fitting to call them the Rebel Alliance, to show that they started under Count Dooku as well as show that they had money behind them from the get-go.  That could actually play Dooku to be a tragic anti-hero of a sorts, if the past idea of him being a rogue Jedi were to be used.

could he use the force and manipulate it to go like boomerang like in super star wars return of the jedi?

Bingowings said:

There are two of them and one of him.

 

yeah... real Jedi like there... they can't get revenge but they can gang up on people!  Nothin' like a fair fight!  >:)

I say maybe dialogue could be worked in by having Maul and Qui taunt each other but insert said dialogue when we see the other's face, ie. when they speak, we see the back of their head - that way you don't have to worry about lip synching or 'cantina-izing".   Or maybe you could do it a little like the film DUNE where the voices are faded and a little echoe-y ie. Maul and Qui are taunting or communicating via there minds.

Also.. I don't know how you would go about this... but maybe the fight needs some editing and alternate FX work.   Hell, for that matter, Qui-Jon kind of goes out almost as punkish as Boba.  He IS supposed to be a Jedi master and he walks right into that killing blow.  Is there any way someone could:

(1) reflect Obi's fateful decision in ANH and have Qui do a pause, look at Obi-Wan, make the sloppy plunge but change the expression on his face as if he knew it was coming, insert the same shock music when Luke sees Obi buy it, have the shield wall (or replacement) take a little longer to open for Obi to reflect (and the music to play out) before he goes into the fight?  In fact, maybe someone (hint, hint, Ady) could have Qui-Jon's robes collapse into a heap when he gets hit and maybe insert an altered "Vader poking at Obi's robes with his foot" scene directly afterwards to show Maul doing to same thing.

(2) Considering Ady used the DOTF music during the Obi/Vader fight in ANH:R, I would have NO PROBLEM AT ALL having the same exact shock music play for Obi when seeing Qui-Jon die as when Luke sees Obi-Wan die.  Using music ques to tie the 2 series together I think would work quite well, especially if there is a point to the music usage.

(3) hell, for that matter, the shield walls could be edited out and just have Maul wound Obi to the point that it takes him a while to get to the tunnel Qui-Jon and Maul are in.  Before Obi runs up, we have some taunting and Maul hinting at something bigger (and/or the destruction of the Jedi), with Qui-Jon weakened due to injury or Sith mental attacks or whatnot - regardless, he is in a position that he knows he either can't win, or Maul points out that the council doesn't trust or believe in him -

- BUT Qui-Jon knows that Obi is considered by the council to be their top student so to speak, so his sacrifice is to galvanize Obi in Qui-Jon's quest to discover what is behind the "phantom menace".

- maybe some extra dialogue earlier could reflect Obi as an "agent Scully" type sent by the council to keep an eye on Qui-Jon and to turn him in if he disobeys the council.  Obi is on the fence, but with Qui-Jon the "spooky Mulder" of the Jedi council he is still not sure if he is just a paranoid conspiracy theorist or he's right.  When Maul "kills" him, Obi makes his decision and now the council has to listen and follow through with what they didn't want to touch with a 10-light year pole.

_____________________

If there was one major problem amongst the rest (uh, bad acting?), it is that things seem to happen without any sort of drama to them:  Qui-Jon dies, Naboo is attacked, Nemoidians are killed en masse, they all win, Ani falls in love, they are in peril, things happen and explode, etc., etc. etc. and you're there just shrugging your shoulders at it all. 

When Obi-Wan "dies" in ANH, I don't know about you but when I was 7 it punched me in the gut!  It was like seeing my grandfather get killed on screen (which is funny.. okay, maybe "that" isn't ... but in FELLOWSHIP OF THE RING, of which Lucas ripped this scene from, when Gandalf does his "Fly, you fools!' and then falls into the abyss after the Balrog, my sister was crying like a baby.  What do you know?  Even though we've seen it before, it still works every time).

It is more than just the "I AM READING OFF OF A TELEPROMPTER (inset cylon voice inflections here)" line reading, the bad attempt at humor ("now I know why I hate flying!", "Oh no, not again!" "There he goes (jumping out of flying cars) again.. that wacky Anakin"), the things that SHOULD be dramatic but fall flatly (the AOTC padme assassination attempt scene), the music to it all, which at times did NOT reflect in any way what was happening on screen... it was ALL OF THE ABOVE. 

Hence all of the talk of redubbing damn near all of the actors and actresses, damn near redoing the entire music score AND sound FX, as well as some crazy editing and new FX work, much less damn near re-writing the scripts... all in all, these movies are just Epic Fail just to nail the same emotional and mental high points of what Lucas accomplished 20+ years ago. 

Seems to me the cafeteria master has become the student, and he's just been served a three-course meal of "let the wookie do it", if by wookie you mean fans who have no money but a lot of soul...and time.

Bingowings said:

fishmanlee said:

could he use the force and manipulate it to go like boomerang like in super star wars return of the jedi?

One of the problems with TPM is it's action sequences already resemble a computer game.

The duel particularly so with all those pointless platforms and shield gates, it's a real shame that there was no dialogue in there either, surely the Jedi would want to know more about this mysterious attacker.

If Maul used the Force to throw his sabre around what's stopping the Jedi from using the Force to snatch it off him?

There are two of them and one of him.

 

That could be played upon - in fact, if the Jedi are supposed to fight "fair", maybe Qui-Jon tells Obi "No!  I will deal with him myself!" and it is a Jedi rule that you never play unfairly (duels have to be one-on-one and/or Jedi are taught to handle things as individuals).  Maul during the fight (with or without hand gestures) has metal parts fly into Qui-Jon and uses his dark side force powers to "boomerang" his double blade at Qui-Jon ala the Rock Man in NINJA SCROLL.

During this, Obi watches impatiently and at the first sign of Maul "cheating" he rushes in to help Qui-Jon, essentially breaking Jedi standards to do the obvious: help his master.

Hell, how hard would it be to make Qui-Jon's hair white or silver to reflect that he is much older and thus capable of being taken down?

Monroville said:

Bingowings said:

fishmanlee said:

could he use the force and manipulate it to go like boomerang like in super star wars return of the jedi?

One of the problems with TPM is it's action sequences already resemble a computer game.

The duel particularly so with all those pointless platforms and shield gates, it's a real shame that there was no dialogue in there either, surely the Jedi would want to know more about this mysterious attacker.

If Maul used the Force to throw his sabre around what's stopping the Jedi from using the Force to snatch it off him?

There are two of them and one of him.

 

That could be played upon - in fact, if the Jedi are supposed to fight "fair", maybe Qui-Jon tells Obi "No!  I will deal with him myself!" and it is a Jedi rule that you never play unfairly (duels have to be one-on-one and/or Jedi are taught to handle things as individuals).  Maul during the fight (with or without hand gestures) has metal parts fly into Qui-Jon and uses his dark side force powers to "boomerang" his double blade at Qui-Jon ala the Rock Man in NINJA SCROLL.

During this, Obi watches impatiently and at the first sign of Maul "cheating" he rushes in to help Qui-Jon, essentially breaking Jedi standards to do the obvious: help his master.

Hell, how hard would it be to make Qui-Jon's hair white or silver to reflect that he is much older and thus capable of being taken down?

 

Welll this would fit well with what happens in AOTC "no i'm taking him now!" "no anakin! no!" It's Obiwan talking from experience this way. But then how do you explain the Dooku fight in ROTS? Hmmm

SomethingStarWarsRelated said:

Monroville said:

That could be played upon - in fact, if the Jedi are supposed to fight "fair", maybe Qui-Jon tells Obi "No!  I will deal with him myself!" and it is a Jedi rule that you never play unfairly (duels have to be one-on-one and/or Jedi are taught to handle things as individuals).  Maul during the fight (with or without hand gestures) has metal parts fly into Qui-Jon and uses his dark side force powers to "boomerang" his double blade at Qui-Jon ala the Rock Man in NINJA SCROLL.

During this, Obi watches impatiently and at the first sign of Maul "cheating" he rushes in to help Qui-Jon, essentially breaking Jedi standards to do the obvious: help his master.

Hell, how hard would it be to make Qui-Jon's hair white or silver to reflect that he is much older and thus capable of being taken down?

 

Welll this would fit well with what happens in AOTC "no i'm taking him now!" "no anakin! no!" It's Obiwan talking from experience this way. But then how do you explain the Dooku fight in ROTS? Hmmm

That would be easy: the Jedi are there to stop the "rebellion", being that they serve the Republic.  Part of the tragedy is that they don't realize they are now working for the bad guys.  In fact, again if redubbing is done, maybe Dooku could say things along the line of: "You don't know what you're doing!  Or who you are working for!"  In fact, have him say the OPPOSITE of taunts, to where he is questioning the Jedi's ethics and motives and is planting seeds of doubt or ideas as to what to look into.

In the fight aboard the starship that Palpatine is a prisoner on, Dooku could have captured Palps to torture him for information as well as a confession - thus, when the Jedi show up, they are on the same rescue mission but now an added element could be that the Jedi put a death sentence on Dooku for his final action of treason against the republic and what he's done to Palps (maybe scars could be put onto Ian McDarmond and this could explain how he looks the way he does - maybe something like the Kaiber crystal could be inserted into the script, not just to explain the object Padme gives to the Nemoidian chief per the alternate plot of Jar-Jar watching over it and the humans stealing it, but also bring back the SPLINTER OF THE MIND'S EYE element that it enhances force powers.  In this case, Dooku steals it from the Nemoidians and uses it ala the DARK CRYSTAL to suck life energy from Palpatine, hence the old withered look.  Since Palps is sitting in a chair, one could clone the Emperor from JEDI and use FX to match the dialogue to his mouth).

guitarfan01 said:

 

 

end of 128 INT. CORUSCANT-CHANCELLOR’S OFFICE-EARLY EVENING 

*MACE WINDU is defenestrated by Palpy's lightning*

ANAKIN sits down heavily, in shock at the turn of events he has precipitated.

PALPATINE: You are fulfilling your destiny, Anakin. Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the Force. 

ANAKIN: I will do whatever you ask.  Just help me save Padme's life.

ANAKIN kneels before Palpatine.

PALPATINE: Good, good.

 

 

And that is where the problem begins: to have Windu killed right in front of you and then the guy who you protected essentially turns around and says, "Yup, he was right; I AM the bad guy" and then Anakin goes "Okay!"... well, that is about the most WTF moment I can think of.

I like someone else's idea of Anakin charging at Palps and having it cut away as Palps fires his lightning; the idea being that you could essentially "kill" Anakin right there and from that point on show Darth Vader (in costume or just darken/alter Anakin's face for the rest of the movie) or add a scene or two of Anakin being "conditioned" by Palps (with or without said Kaiber Crystal that was used to torture him per my earlier suggestion) - this would make Anakin even more tragic in that he never really fell to the DSOF so much as was brainwashed into it.

- something else I just thought of too: when Luke is getting zapped by Palps, regardless of Ady or anyone putting audio or video "flashbacks" when Vader is looking on, to have the corollary to Anakin being zapped when Windu is killed (which led to his torture, confession and conversion), it would make the torture of Han in EMPIRE as well as his inflection on seeing Palps do to his son the beginning of the same process of what was done to him would add to Vader's character ie. that Vader understands the power of torture in that it was mental and force-powered torture that converted him to the point of being a willing believer and thus when doing it to Han or Leia - be it ANH or EMPIRE- he almost relishes it.  Yet when it happens to Luke, with the added implication of what is to come AFTERWARDS (for the Prequel edits, maybe take scenes from A CLOCKWORK ORANGE and replace Malcolm McD with Hayden) and THAT is why Vader kills Palpatine.

Then again, Palps was intending to just straight-up kill Luke, but you get the idea.  Maybe a corollary could be made between the Windu scene and Luke - have Windu not thrown out the window quite as suddenly but have him tortured a bit before being sent to his death, with Anakin watching helplessly (maybe being paralyzed with a lightning blast before Windu gets it, so while Ani is sitting upright, paralyzed but conscious, he has to watch what happens).

guitarfan01 said:

ben_danger said:

omg, david lynch turned down rotj??? i dont blame him, but it could have been SO much better!!

i have been thinking of an ESB style dream sequences. i love how the original clone wars series showed a dream of anakin and qui gon at the tree, and especially thought that anakins prophetic dream was really well delivered.

in regards to the alternative timing for the jedi purge as suggested by guitarfan, i have two ideas (one more radical than the other)

 

1 (less radical)

we build up mace windus character as a bit of a paranoid ass. he is constantly putting down anakin and palpatine, his suspicions have turned this once great master to a a bit of a loose cannon. during ROTS, he builds up suspicions that palpatine is the dark lord, an idea that is too dreadful or extreme to even be considered by the council.

at the crunch point of the film, mace decides to take matters into his own hands "i sence a plot to destroy the jedi", "if the chancellor does not relinquish his powers then he should be removed from office." mace does this (from a certain point of view) he (possibly alone) confronts the chancellor, declaring his intention to save democracy and the jedi order, palpatine coldly replies "you're too late".

we now cut to a montage of the jedi being slaughtered as windu and palpatine battle. it makes the jedi's battle seem futile and tragic, that even if windu is victorious in slaying palpatine, hehas still failed to stop the massacre. anakin rushes in and saves the chancellor from the obviously delusional jedi.

this idea would fit in well if we try and direct it more from anakins point of view. mace obviously isnt a paranoid ass, but if we force the viewer to only see 60% of the real story, then he may appear to be, so we are betrayed into thinking the obvious bad guy is the good guy.

2 (more radical)

obi wan defeats grevious, ending the clone war. a message is sent to the jedi to return to coruscant to celebrate the event. the streets of the capital are flooded with people chanting palpatines name. anakin looks happy with padme, and it feels like the film is going to end with this wonderful feeling of victory (like the end of TPM, but bigger and less gay).

anakin goes to visit palpatine, who is surrounded by senators, who are waiting for him to go the senate hall for the resigning ceremony. the senators leave. at this point palpatine reveals to anakin that he is the sith lord.

the film continues as usual or alternatively the 'less radical' paranoid mace windu can be intertwined with this.

enstead of the jedi being killed in the field of battle, they are enstead massacred in the temple, hundreds of thousands of troops charge, overwhelming them completley. yoda and obi wan are the only two who escape, who then follow through to their respective battles. anakin believes palpatine's lies etc.

i would like to see this idea, as it would be a complete emotional flip. as we near 2/3 into the film, we think we are about to get to a happy ending, for everything to go horribly wrong in the final act. it would be great for the celebration to be in daylight to contrast the burning jedi temple in the evening.

 

 

let me know if you even read all of this.;) idea 2 needs a bit more work.

 

has anyone ever wanted to see an edit of ROTS where there is a happy ending? my GF hates watching it because it upsets her too much.:P

 

WOW WOW WOW!  That is head and shoulders above what I was working on!  I love those ideas, especially Mace Windu being a paranoid, and intercutting the Mace/Palpatine duel with the Great Jedi Purge.  I also love the idea of a false "happy ending" just before the rug is pulled out from under the first time viewer.  The trick would be to build up Grievous into the major villian of the movie so that the viewer would believe that killing him would end the film, and to push the whole "sith lord" thing into the back of the viewers' minds.  Perhaps a complete lack of Sidious in the entire PT except for a holographic conversation with Nute Gunray in the first movie?  What appears to be a throwaway character turns out to be the orchestrator of everything?  I'm not sure.

I myself was basing my ideas more on what others (esp JasonN and GoodMusician) have done in their edits.  As I said before, I always thought that Anakin's sudden wild swing into the depths of the Dark Side was rather unbelievable.

OK, how is this for a radical idea: instead of killing off Dooku at the beginning thus having to have general grievous be the new leader of the droid army...why not switch it all up? At the beginning of the movie have grievous be some other villian for some other purpose (maybe he information...maybe he knows where Palpatine/Dooku is...?), Obiwan kills him, Obi and Anakin meet up, space battle, find Palps, kill Dooku, END WAR. From AOTC we already associate Dooku with being in control of the droid army. Remember what Obi said to Anakin in AOTC: "If we catch him we could end this war right now!". With this structure, it's easier for the audience to follow...Why did Lucas add grievous to ROTS?

I by no means haven't figured out the specifics so I don't know if it will work...but that makes more sense IMHO.

Well

I agree the way the that i saw palpie in a SW art book.

That is ugly from the dark side but he uses it too to fix his face.

So the lightning accident just uncover the protection.

-Angel