The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 233

ben_danger said:

someone not so long ago suggested cutting the obi-wan/vader duel from ANH, so we just see the beginning and the climax. a fair point if we consider that in a I-VI running order, duels may at this point become somewhat tiresome.

this got me thinking, has anyone ever considered completely cutting the palp/windu duel out in the same fashion? we see them exchange words, then we follow anakin rushing to the scene, then enstead of expecting a civilised arrest going on, the entire suete has been trashed and there is a jedi about to assassinate the chancellor. could create some much needed empathy to anakin and some ambiguity to the events. and would eliminate the whole lightsabre too.

some additional still shots could be inserted of the other jedi dead in various places with smoke rising from them, later suggeting they were just zapped to death.

You know what....if it can be done that's actually a really great idea.  There's plenty of lightsaber action as it is in the movie and this one is EASILY the weakest link.  I had a more involved idea to fix it that required a lot of visual effects....but this is much more straightforward and as you said would help the audience follow Anakin's perspective more.  I wonder how that would work in the flow of the movie.

^the problem for me is that should be the whole ESB moment, so appose to being 'I am your father' its like 'I am the Dark Lord'. If only he didn't use the lightening, then anakin could discover he just murdered a jedi when it was all too late.

I suppose him knowing before hand though suggests his damnation was secured as soon as he went to meddle.

If dooku is not a sith, then perhaps the dark side subplot could be such a sidelined idea that its portrayed in a rebelious and exciting light. anakin asking palps about the 'dark side' could be with a similar enthusiasm to luke asking about his father, or pursuing his jedi career. there would just need to be that 'oh crap i was wrong, and its all to late' moment for anakin near the end.*

*not in a regrettable sence, but more in an 'its inevitable, i best completely surrender myself and hope for the best - later losing all perspective' sence.

DominicCobb said:

ben_danger said:

someone not so long ago suggested cutting the obi-wan/vader duel from ANH, so we just see the beginning and the climax. a fair point if we consider that in a I-VI running order, duels may at this point become somewhat tiresome.

this got me thinking, has anyone ever considered completely cutting the palp/windu duel out in the same fashion? we see them exchange words, then we follow anakin rushing to the scene, then enstead of expecting a civilised arrest going on, the entire suete has been trashed and there is a jedi about to assassinate the chancellor. could create some much needed empathy to anakin and some ambiguity to the events. and would eliminate the whole lightsabre too.

some additional still shots could be inserted of the other jedi dead in various places with smoke rising from them, later suggeting they were just zapped to death.

I had a similar thought not too long ago. I think having the scene focus only on Anakin would create much more suspense.

I agree, it sounds like a better idea, but I'm sure it would require some additional footage to provide enough information to understand Anakin's POV when he enters the room. See the Jedi laid all over the floor in the main room where Mace has his saber trained at Palpatine's neck. It would be even cooler if while you had a shot of anakin's face taking the scene in you could hear Palpatine's voice off camera saying something like, "Master Windu killed them all to get to me!"

bingo suggested years ago that it would strengthen anakin's character if the chancellor is not depicted as the all out evil bad guy until later on. this coupled with making the dark side seem like the logical choice would stop him looking like a complete eejit aswell.

so what do we need for this to work?

* no mean looking palpatine
* dooku as a rogue jedi to suggest the jedi are the problem
* anakin hearing about the dark side, but NOT the as the big bad, ie NO SITH. uncle palpatine basically suggests he does steroids, not murder kids. this cold be done by revealing palpatine as the knower of the dark side earlier on.
* cutting any obvious links to palpatine and the robed mastermind, and also cutting any parts which suggest he is a bad person.
* some palpatines 'revelation' could be moved to after anakin saves him, to suggest his dark side training has begun, this would be as an alternative to seeing him all old.

possible supporting points

* dooku suggests in the final duel that his agents have infiltrated every level of the republic, thus creating paranoia that there are spies and villains everywhere (paranoia that perhaps WINDU is going to assassinate the CHANCELLOR)
* anakin is really worried about obi-wan going against grevious alone. he even dreams about him dying enstead of padme. the scene where he is blasted by the clones is inserted somewhere before windu goes to make the arrest, and it is really heavily suggested that he has been killed. anakin has a tantrum like in EPII and blames the jedi. angry he confronts windu during the arrest and sides with palpatine. the whole 'dooku's spies' subplot would be strengthened here as we would see cody take the order from Seperatist Robe Man.
* some of the ruminations scenes could be recut to show anakin mourning obi-wan.

this would overall be a combination of nightmarish cutting, and some voice work. anakin's actual TURN would be when he eventually faces obi-wan again, and the audience suddenly realises how wrong he has gone. Palpatine is the bad father leading anakin down the lie, Obi-wan is the good father who brings us the truth. it will all be ambiguous until that point.

Episode 3 (Palpatine duel with 4 Jedi easy fix)

Instead of 4 Jedi going to confront Palpatine,have Mace and Anakin on there way to tell Palpatine that General Grievous has been killed and that he can now step down as Chancellor.

Then Palpatine says that he just can't do that,and the first time we see the Force Lightning is when he zaps Mace,and Mace flies across the room getting knocked out.

Anakin ignites his lightsaber and Palpatine ignites his and we see Anakin vs Palpatine.Palpatine is trying to talk Anakin down during their duel,telling him that he has the power to stop Padme from dying and if Anakin becomes his new apprentice,then he will share this power with Anakin.

Anakin stops swinging his lightsaber and is just standing there thinking about what Palpatine has just told him as there two lightsabers are sizzling as the blades are crossed on top of each other.

Thats when Mace flips over toward where Palpatine is.Palpatine looks behind himself and sees Mace flipping over.Palpatine Force Pushes Anakin across the room as Palpatine focuses his attention onto Mace.

Mace vs Palpatine as Anakin just watches.Then when Palpatine is down and Mace is about to kill Palpatine,Anakin throws his lightsaber across the room where it cuts off Mace's hand.

Episode 3 Palpatine confrontation:

Or if 4 Jedi do go in there.Palpatine can Force Crush one Jedi lightsaber handle where we see the blade go out and then Palpatine Force Pulls the Jedi over to himself where Palpatine's own red lightsaber goes into the Jedi chest. (1 Jedi down,3 to go)

Then Palpatine Force Pushes a Jedi and Mace out of the room where the Jedi gets impaled by a statue. (2 Jedi down,2 to go)

Palpatine quickly flips over to Kit Fisto and fights him as Mace is seen in the background getting up off the floor and running back over to join the fight.

Palpatine kills Kit Fisto right before Mace even gets there. (3 Jedi down,1 to go)

Then Palpatine vs Mace.

It was suggested earlier that we never see Yoda in the PT to keep the surprise that the often mentioned great Jedi master is a little green guy with big ears.

What if Mace is never named.

That might lead people to think he is Yoda...not sure how workable the idea is but Windu seems to be the Yoda some might imagine until you see the real thing.

Watching the prequels, ive realised how easily would be to edit out the whole "forbidden love" plot from Episode III. Mainly because there are more scenes where people perfectly know that this is going on and dont care than scenes in wich this matters.
The only problem is that it will make Anakin's story through Episode II much shorter, but i guess you can include Padme's family for character development.
Things that will improve if you did this:

_You get rid of many crappy dialogue

_Is less unbelieable for Padme to fall for Anakin after he acts like an idiot or kills people. Its stupid, but if she was already his girlfriend while all that things happens, she will be more inclined to support him and go around with him. Just leave the Love as a classic guy meets girl and they fall for each other almost a day before meeting from almost every single fairy tale. The thing is, if you dont question that love in the movie, you dont question why would they fall in love.

_Scenes like the waterfall scene, or Padme going to Tatooine, arent as forced as they are now, they are just development of a young couple.

_Obi Wan will know about this, and will be OK with this. Wich will help in scenes that he would obviously know this, like everytime Anakin talks about Padme or in the "What would Padme do in your position?" scene.

Have you realsied how NOBODY cares about their marriage? Obi Wan obviously knows through all the story, Anakin tells Yoda he is worried about loosing someone he loves, the council dosnt care to send the two alone to Naboo, and then again after the clone wars start, and ANYONE can see that Padme is pregnant. Seems like the only ones that mention this or care about this are Padme and Anakin.

You can fall in love, you can get married, you can have kids, you simply must accept that when they die you have to let them go.

sans_fi said:

Watching the prequels, ive realised how easily would be to edit out the whole "forbidden love" plot from Episode III. Mainly because there are more scenes where people perfectly know that this is going on and dont care than scenes in wich this matters.
The only problem is that it will make Anakin's story through Episode II much shorter, but i guess you can include Padme's family for character development.
Things that will improve if you did this:

_You get rid of many crappy dialogue

_Is less unbelieable for Padme to fall for Anakin after he acts like an idiot or kills people. Its stupid, but if she was already his girlfriend while all that things happens, she will be more inclined to support him and go around with him. Just leave the Love as a classic guy meets girl and they fall for each other almost a day before meeting from almost every single fairy tale. The thing is, if you dont question that love in the movie, you dont question why would they fall in love.

_Scenes like the waterfall scene, or Padme going to Tatooine, arent as forced as they are now, they are just development of a young couple.

_Obi Wan will know about this, and will be OK with this. Wich will help in scenes that he would obviously know this, like everytime Anakin talks about Padme or in the "What would Padme do in your position?" scene.

Have you realsied how NOBODY cares about their marriage? Obi Wan obviously knows through all the story, Anakin tells Yoda he is worried about loosing someone he loves, the council dosnt care to send the two alone to Naboo, and then again after the clone wars start, and ANYONE can see that Padme is pregnant. Seems like the only ones that mention this or care about this are Padme and Anakin.

You can fall in love, you can get married, you can have kids, you simply must accept that when they die you have to let them go.

Watch L8wrtr's edit of Attack of the Clones. He accomplishes exactly what you said perfectly. Actually, watch L8wrtr's edit anyways. It's the best AOTC edit out there.

sans_fi said:

Watching the prequels, ive realised how easily would be to edit out the whole "forbidden love" plot from Episode III. Mainly because there are more scenes where people perfectly know that this is going on and dont care than scenes in wich this matters.
The only problem is that it will make Anakin's story through Episode II much shorter, but i guess you can include Padme's family for character development.
Things that will improve if you did this:

_You get rid of many crappy dialogue

_Is less unbelieable for Padme to fall for Anakin after he acts like an idiot or kills people. Its stupid, but if she was already his girlfriend while all that things happens, she will be more inclined to support him and go around with him. Just leave the Love as a classic guy meets girl and they fall for each other almost a day before meeting from almost every single fairy tale. The thing is, if you dont question that love in the movie, you dont question why would they fall in love.

_Scenes like the waterfall scene, or Padme going to Tatooine, arent as forced as they are now, they are just development of a young couple.

_Obi Wan will know about this, and will be OK with this. Wich will help in scenes that he would obviously know this, like everytime Anakin talks about Padme or in the "What would Padme do in your position?" scene.

Have you realsied how NOBODY cares about their marriage? Obi Wan obviously knows through all the story, Anakin tells Yoda he is worried about loosing someone he loves, the council dosnt care to send the two alone to Naboo, and then again after the clone wars start, and ANYONE can see that Padme is pregnant. Seems like the only ones that mention this or care about this are Padme and Anakin.

You can fall in love, you can get married, you can have kids, you simply must accept that when they die you have to let them go.

Yeah, when I watched the PT recently I thought that was kind of funny. If any of you watch the Office, it reminded me of the Dwight and Angela relationship that the two kept secret for absolutely no reason.

DominicCobb said:

sans_fi said:

Watching the prequels, ive realised how easily would be to edit out the whole "forbidden love" plot from Episode III. Mainly because there are more scenes where people perfectly know that this is going on and dont care than scenes in wich this matters.
The only problem is that it will make Anakin's story through Episode II much shorter, but i guess you can include Padme's family for character development.
Things that will improve if you did this:

_You get rid of many crappy dialogue

_Is less unbelieable for Padme to fall for Anakin after he acts like an idiot or kills people. Its stupid, but if she was already his girlfriend while all that things happens, she will be more inclined to support him and go around with him. Just leave the Love as a classic guy meets girl and they fall for each other almost a day before meeting from almost every single fairy tale. The thing is, if you dont question that love in the movie, you dont question why would they fall in love.

_Scenes like the waterfall scene, or Padme going to Tatooine, arent as forced as they are now, they are just development of a young couple.

_Obi Wan will know about this, and will be OK with this. Wich will help in scenes that he would obviously know this, like everytime Anakin talks about Padme or in the "What would Padme do in your position?" scene.

Have you realsied how NOBODY cares about their marriage? Obi Wan obviously knows through all the story, Anakin tells Yoda he is worried about loosing someone he loves, the council dosnt care to send the two alone to Naboo, and then again after the clone wars start, and ANYONE can see that Padme is pregnant. Seems like the only ones that mention this or care about this are Padme and Anakin.

You can fall in love, you can get married, you can have kids, you simply must accept that when they die you have to let them go.

Yeah, when I watched the PT recently I thought that was kind of funny. If any of you watch the Office, it reminded me of the Dwight and Angela relationship that the two kept secret for absolutely no reason.

It would be way more clearer to have ObiWan be a confidant of Anakin and know about his marriage indeed. As it is set up in the theatricals, it's stupid

Vader23 said:

Episode 3 (Palpatine duel with 4 Jedi easy fix)

Instead of 4 Jedi going to confront Palpatine,have Mace and Anakin on there way to tell Palpatine that General Grievous has been killed and that he can now step down as Chancellor.

Then Palpatine says that he just can't do that,and the first time we see the Force Lightning is when he zaps Mace,and Mace flies across the room getting knocked out.

Anakin ignites his lightsaber and Palpatine ignites his and we see Anakin vs Palpatine.Palpatine is trying to talk Anakin down during their duel,telling him that he has the power to stop Padme from dying and if Anakin becomes his new apprentice,then he will share this power with Anakin.

Anakin stops swinging his lightsaber and is just standing there thinking about what Palpatine has just told him as there two lightsabers are sizzling as the blades are crossed on top of each other.

Thats when Mace flips over toward where Palpatine is.Palpatine looks behind himself and sees Mace flipping over.Palpatine Force Pushes Anakin across the room as Palpatine focuses his attention onto Mace.

Mace vs Palpatine as Anakin just watches.Then when Palpatine is down and Mace is about to kill Palpatine,Anakin throws his lightsaber across the room where it cuts off Mace's hand.

Vader23 said:

Episode 3 Palpatine confrontation:

 

Or if 4 Jedi do go in there.Palpatine can Force Crush one Jedi lightsaber handle where we see the blade go out and then Palpatine Force Pulls the Jedi over to himself where Palpatine's own red lightsaber goes into the Jedi chest. (1 Jedi down,3 to go)

Then Palpatine Force Pushes a Jedi and Mace out of the room where the Jedi gets impaled by a statue. (2 Jedi down,2 to go)

Palpatine quickly flips over to Kit Fisto and fights him as Mace is seen in the background getting up off the floor and running back over to join the fight.

Palpatine kills Kit Fisto right before Mace even gets there. (3 Jedi down,1 to go)

Then Palpatine vs Mace.

I assume all of this would be done with action figures?

Oh, and I'm totally down with Greenie's dance competition idea.  It could be like Michael Jackson's Moonwalker.

Really, it's just bad writing. That's why it doesn't work. The whole forbidden love aspect could have worked if they cited reason for why it was forbidden. They can't claim the lack of possessions thing, because how could any sane person claim their spouse as a "possession"...  Now, I suggested to a friend that it would be interesting that their love was wrong for more moral reasons. What if you remove the wedding, and they are a couple outside the confines of marriage. That sounds like something that would be wrong in a Jedi code book.... And then when she gets pregnant, it heightens things.

IIRC, it's actually "attachment" which is forbidden, which kind of fits in with Luke being held back from going to cloud city. The idea is to make the Jedi more like monk ascetics. It wasn't executed very well and it would be better to achieve it in other ways, but that was the intention.

I agree, it makes for an interesting idea and shows how the Jedi were deeply flawed in their intention to keep a perfectly controlled system.  However, I agree as well that it was not executed terribly well.

^What Vladius said.

I disagree with the idea of removing the forbidden love aspect of the story because while Episode II could probably work without it, I think it removes an important piece of Anakin's character development in III.  In episode III he already has an inherent level of distrust towards the jedi because he knows he's in a forbidden relationship with Padme and what the reaction will be if he is outed.  Even those he asks advice of, like Yoda, can't be told the full story and so he has few people he can turn to when he begins to have visions....at which point palpatine enters.

I think the core idea behind the story works, but it's undermined by the stilted dialogue and poorly explained character motivations.

It's not well explained at all, but I don't think it's that crazy the council would send Anakin off alone with Padme and Obi-wan wouldn't outright confront him over the attachment the two share with one another.

Remember that Jedi are all still human(ish).  Raised from the proper age or not, they are not just droids.  Emotions and the need for attachment is something hardwired into all sentient beings that they must simply learn to overcome and control.  It would probably be expected at some point that even the most perfect of students would begin to have thoughts of a life outside the order and may even stretch the boundaries of what the Jedi code would allow with personal relationships.

If you think about it, this would actually make sense as a trial for Anakin, one that all young jedi must go through to choose a life within the order, or a life where you are free to pursue earthly attachments.  But Anakin wants it all.

The problem is that the movies make it seem like Anakin is the first Jedi in history to feel this way and it makes the Jedi look like dunces for not realizing it.  It would be better if they understood his connection to her, and instead just underestimated how strong it was and how willing he would be to lie to them.  Not sure how this could be better established though.

I'm still all for removing it, but if it stayed I think it would be better to have some conservative Jedi (e.g. the Jedi Council) have problems with it, but not others (maybe Obi Wan, following after Qui Gon,) and it's not really a secret, Anakin just doesn't want to bring it up at sensitive times.

Sepharih said:

^What Vladius said.

 

I disagree with the idea of removing the forbidden love aspect of the story because while Episode II could probably work without it, I think it removes an important piece of Anakin's character development in III.  In episode III he already has an inherent level of distrust towards the jedi because he knows he's in a forbidden relationship with Padme and what the reaction will be if he is outed.  Even those he asks advice of, like Yoda, can't be told the full story and so he has few people he can turn to when he begins to have visions....at which point palpatine enters.

I think the core idea behind the story works, but it's undermined by the stilted dialogue and poorly explained character motivations.

 

It's not well explained at all, but I don't think it's that crazy the council would send Anakin off alone with Padme and Obi-wan wouldn't outright confront him over the attachment the two share with one another.

Remember that Jedi are all still human(ish).  Raised from the proper age or not, they are not just droids.  Emotions and the need for attachment is something hardwired into all sentient beings that they must simply learn to overcome and control.  It would probably be expected at some point that even the most perfect of students would begin to have thoughts of a life outside the order and may even stretch the boundaries of what the Jedi code would allow with personal relationships.

If you think about it, this would actually make sense as a trial for Anakin, one that all young jedi must go through to choose a life within the order, or a life where you are free to pursue earthly attachments.  But Anakin wants it all.

The problem is that the movies make it seem like Anakin is the first Jedi in history to feel this way and it makes the Jedi look like dunces for not realizing it.  It would be better if they understood his connection to her, and instead just underestimated how strong it was and how willing he would be to lie to them.  Not sure how this could be better established though.

Eh. Just let Anikan get some tuchas. I don't like the whole "Cloistered Sexless" thing the jedi have. It's creepy. There are better ways to lead Anikan to the Dark Side.

MrInsaneA said:

Eh. Just let Anikan get some tuchas. I don't like the whole "Cloistered Sexless" thing the jedi have. It's creepy. There are better ways to lead Anikan to the Dark Side.

I don't know, it kind of fits with the whole warrior monk angle of the Jedi I think.

Just curious, but what have people thought of in terms of radical music edits? Nobody on earth does a better music score than John Williams, but a lot of the music in the prequels feels very canned and generic because of changes that were made late in the editing process if I remember correctly.  I remember in Magnoliafan's episode 1 he added the swoop chase music in from Shadows of the empire and I thought it worked very well.

The Blu-ray's have given us 24bit uncompressed audio and I cannot think of a film that has more readily available sound fx libraries thanks to an endless number of videogames set in the star wars universe, so it's not likely to get any better than this.

One section of Attack of the Clones that I think is in dire need of alternate music is the battle of Geonosis.  The music for the battle in the arena is somewhat questionable.....but not that horrible.  However, I cannot stand the subsequent music for the Clone Rescue and the battle outside.  The music there feels so bleh it almost puts me to sleep.

This is the start of one of the most speculated parts of the back story from the OT.  The Jedi are going to war for crying out loud.  There should be war drums getting pounded, or something suitably heroic to pump the action up.

^i have tried cutting PT parts with music from similar periods as the OT, or earlier if we imagine TPM came out in 1968.

My favourite two are Clash of the Titans, and Ben-Hur. But that is only because I have those. Someone did an amazing music cut of the pod race to a Close Encounters a while back.

Does anyone have sources for Ian McDiarmid lines?

I'm making major changes to the order of events and I need him (or someone else from Star Wars) to have a line about killing in order to preserve life, or ending one life and beginning another one.