The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 150

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight.

This guy, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around.

We have another shady supporting character character betraying the heroes at the end of the middle chapter of the trilogy. He’s Lando with a twist. The twist being, he doesn’t come back to help them.

ExNihilo said:

This thread is sanity with a twist.

Too true.

yotsuya said:

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Wow, you’ve really put a lot of thought into this post. Unfortunately I disagree with you in everything, especially the last sentence. The OT heroes finished it already. RotJ is an ending. You don’t have to destroy their victories so that the ST heroes can have their victories on top of the OT heroes’. That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone. To surprise everyone! Woohoo!! Plot twist baby, Darth Vader killed the Emperor!

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Wow, you’ve really put a lot of thought into this post. Unfortunately I disagree with you in everything, especially the last sentence. The OT heroes finished it already. RotJ is an ending. You don’t have to destroy their victories so that the ST heroes can have their victories on top of the OT heroes’. That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone. To surprise everyone! Woohoo!! Plot twist baby, Darth Vader killed the Emperor!

you really seem to hate Rian Johnson.

DrDre said:

Yeah, like the people in the final scene of ROTJ SE hoped for, but didn’t get. ROTJ ended with Luke causing the destruction of the Emperor and his right hand man, a significant part of the Imperial fleet, and the Death Star. I’m sure that’s quite a bit more inspiring than Luke facing down the FO. If that doesn’t result in a clamor for democracy (one we’ve actually witnessed and after two decades of terror), I don’t know what will. Snoke was pulled out of thin air, and disappeared into thin air. Who knows how many Snokes are waiting in some unknown region of the galaxy. The ST has severely deflated the concept of victory not only for the OT, but for victories in the Star Wars universe as a whole. It has made any future victory, including the one we’re bound to get at the end of ep. IX, meaningless.

But who saw what Luke did? Did Luke destroy the second Death Star? No. No one saw Luke and no one can confirm what he did. It was Lando and Wedge who destroyed the second Death Star. Many would claim they would have succeeded without Luke’s help. Luke’s role was the redemption of his father (also something the Galaxy at large would not know about). What Luke did in TLJ was public, in front of a large audience (most of it being the First Order so of limited usefulness) and we know the word got out.

And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

chyron8472 said:

DrDre said:

Let’s not forget this is another story thread taken directly from the middle chapter of the previous trilogy used in the middle chapter of this one.

Yes, let’s. The only comparison to be made is that DJ betrays them.

The point is that we didn’t need a side character with questionable moral values that you think is going to help our heroes and ends up betraying them in the middle chapter of a trilogy AGAIN.

I could be describing both Lando and Benicio Del Toro.

And it’s not even the visuals of the throne room that were rehashed, they literally copied and pasted dialogue from RotJ in the scene. Snoke showing Rey the destruction of the fleet is exactly like the Emperor doing the same thing with Luke (but in RotJ it was a lot more meaningful and had the appropriate context). Rey and Ren trying to one turn the other to their respective sides, much like Vader and Luke, except that Vader and Luke had reasons and good motivations to do so and believe they would succeed (or in Luke’s case, the compassion and belief and hope that Vader would turn good).

TLJ is a more camouflaged (than TFA) OT homage in terms of aesthetics, with a hate message in terms of content.

dahmage said:

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Wow, you’ve really put a lot of thought into this post. Unfortunately I disagree with you in everything, especially the last sentence. The OT heroes finished it already. RotJ is an ending. You don’t have to destroy their victories so that the ST heroes can have their victories on top of the OT heroes’. That’s just, from my point of view, Rian Johnson doing whatever he can to destroy everything that’s within his reach simply because he can, to prove some sort of point to someone. To surprise everyone! Woohoo!! Plot twist baby, Darth Vader killed the Emperor!

you really seem to hate Rian Johnson.

It seems like Rian Johnson hates him.

chyron8472 said:

DrDre said:

Let’s not forget this is another story thread taken directly from the middle chapter of the previous trilogy used in the middle chapter of this one.

Yes, let’s. The only comparison to be made is that DJ betrays them.

There really isn’t a lot to compare. Neither DJ or Lando are particulary developed in their respective films. They’re both set up to be less than thrustworthy allies, and they both end up betraying the heroes in the middle chapter of the trilogy.

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight.

This guy, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around.

We have another shady supporting character character betraying the heroes at the end of the middle chapter of the trilogy. He’s Lando with a twist. The twist being, he doesn’t come back to help them.

But Lando isn’t shady by any means when we meet him in Empire. He’s an upstanding citizen and a successful businessman. The only similarity between Lando and Benny del Toro (literally don’t know the character’s name) is that they both betray our protagonists.

DJ

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

Don’t you guys remember the part where Lando sold arms to both sides in the war?

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight.

This guy, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around.

We have another shady supporting character character betraying the heroes at the end of the middle chapter of the trilogy. He’s Lando with a twist. The twist being, he doesn’t come back to help them.

But Lando isn’t shady by any means when we meet him in Empire. He’s an upstanding citizen and a successful businessman. The only similarity between Lando and Benny del Toro (literally don’t know the character’s name) is that they both betray our protagonists.

HAN
Yeah, a Tibanna gas mine. Lando conned somebody out of it. We go back a long way, Lando and me.

LEIA
Can you trust him?

HAN
No. But he has no love for the Empire, I can tell you that.

Con man + untrustworthy = shady character

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

I’m quite sure that the first Order will take over quite a few systems that were relying on the Republic. But the ones who listened to Leia won’t be so easy and will put up a fight. And even if the FO takes over a planet, they still have to impose their will on it and after 30 years of freedom, the people won’t take so kindly to totalitarian orders. The fight is not over and the FO will spread itself too thin to hang on in the face of opposition. Snoke has the same over confidence as Palpatine. But look at what the good guys did here. Snoke is dead. A full invasion force could not kill Luke. Kylo Ren could not kill Luke or capture a paltry band of rebels. And the story spread. The spark of hope that Leia knew they needed is exactly what they got. TLJ is an embarrassment for the FO. Like the British at Bunker Hill, more victories like that will cost them the war. Exactly what Leia is hoping for. She just made a PR coup against the FO. The Resistance/Rebels have taken out Starkiller base and Snoke’s flagship and escaped out from under them. (Yes most are dead, but Leia isn’t).

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

I’m quite sure that the first Order will take over quite a few systems that were relying on the Republic. But the ones who listened to Leia won’t be so easy and will put up a fight. And even if the FO takes over a planet, they still have to impose their will on it and after 30 years of freedom, the people won’t take so kindly to totalitarian orders. The fight is not over and the FO will spread itself too thin to hang on in the face of opposition. Snoke has the same over confidence as Palpatine. But look at what the good guys did here. Snoke is dead. A full invasion force could not kill Luke. Kylo Ren could not kill Luke or capture a paltry band of rebels. And the story spread. The spark of hope that Leia knew they needed is exactly what they got. TLJ is an embarrassment for the FO. Like the British at Bunker Hill, more victories like that will cost them the war. Exactly what Leia is hoping for. She just made a PR coup against the FO. The Resistance/Rebels have taken out Starkiller base and Snoke’s flagship and escaped out from under them. (Yes most are dead, but Leia isn’t).

You’re joking right? The FO has decimated the New Republic, and reduced the Resistance to a single ship with a few dozen people on board. The rebellion has no personel, equipment, or funds. TLJ was a huge victory for the FO, with the Resistance getting a consolation prize with the legend of Luke Skywalker, that may have lit a spark to start rebuilding a rebellion over the years to come. This being fiction they naturally will. However, if we can call the Alliance’s victory at the end of ROTJ tenuous in real world terms, the Resistance is as dead as a door nail by TLJ’s end credits.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

But there is doubt. Reigns really doesn’t apply and is used to show that they think they have won. They haven’t won anything yet in this movie. There is no list of planets they have taken over. There isn’t news of a single one. Yes, they stand poised to take over a nice chunk within weeks, but they still haven’t done it. Nothing has really happened except the Hosnian system has been destroyed. What we have is the setup to build a stronger Republic. After what the First Order does and in light of the failure of he second republic, do you think a third repubic is going to be stupid enough to ignore Leia’s wisdom? The Galaxy will know a brief time of turmoil and come out stronger and Rey will build a new Jedi order. Luke taught her of balance - a lesson I don’t think any Jedi has had before. That is where the Rebels series has been headed. That was the crux of the PT. I think the resolution to the saga involves balance and an at least partial redemption of Kylo Ren and achieving balance. For the people of the galaxy, it involves safety, security, and freedom. They need the Republic and they need the Jedi, but a new Jedi not bound by the old teachings. Rey has effectively broken free from the PT lineage and can create something new and better. I see this trilogy saying that the OT would give us the same old Republic and the same old Jedi with all their problems, but if we take it a step further, disrupt things, reforge things, we can give the galaxy an even better Republic and an even better Jedi. Instead of resetting things to where we find them in TPM, it is resetting things to where they were 1000 years or generations ago.

You see destruction. I see reforging.

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

But there is doubt. Reigns really doesn’t apply and is used to show that they think they have won. They haven’t won anything yet in this movie. There is no list of planets they have taken over. There isn’t news of a single one. Yes, they stand poised to take over a nice chunk within weeks, but they still haven’t done it. Nothing has really happened except the Hosnian system has been destroyed. What we have is the setup to build a stronger Republic. After what the First Order does and in light of the failure of he second republic, do you think a third repubic is going to be stupid enough to ignore Leia’s wisdom? The Galaxy will know a brief time of turmoil and come out stronger and Rey will build a new Jedi order. Luke taught her of balance - a lesson I don’t think any Jedi has had before. That is where the Rebels series has been headed. That was the crux of the PT. I think the resolution to the saga involves balance and an at least partial redemption of Kylo Ren and achieving balance. For the people of the galaxy, it involves safety, security, and freedom. They need the Republic and they need the Jedi, but a new Jedi not bound by the old teachings. Rey has effectively broken free from the PT lineage and can create something new and better. I see this trilogy saying that the OT would give us the same old Republic and the same old Jedi with all their problems, but if we take it a step further, disrupt things, reforge things, we can give the galaxy an even better Republic and an even better Jedi. Instead of resetting things to where we find them in TPM, it is resetting things to where they were 1000 years or generations ago.

You see destruction. I see reforging.

They haven’t won anything? They’ve beaten the military opposition so badly, they fit in a single ship. That’s a win if I ever saw one. The FO were poised to take over in weeks before this win. It is a mathematical certainty now that the opposition has been eliminated.

“There’s no doubt the First Order control the galaxy.”

Dre, that’s not what we see in the two movies thus far. The First Order seem to have a serious Arsenal but we don’t ever see any garrisons or colonial troops on any planets like we did so frequently with the Empire.

In fact the FO don’t have a presence on any of the planets we see in the ST, they turn up and attack like raiders then depart.

DrDre said:

pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight.

This guy, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around.

We have another shady supporting character character betraying the heroes at the end of the middle chapter of the trilogy. He’s Lando with a twist. The twist being, he doesn’t come back to help them.

But Lando isn’t shady by any means when we meet him in Empire. He’s an upstanding citizen and a successful businessman. The only similarity between Lando and Benny del Toro (literally don’t know the character’s name) is that they both betray our protagonists.

HAN
Yeah, a Tibanna gas mine. Lando conned somebody out of it. We go back a long way, Lando and me.

LEIA
Can you trust him?

HAN
No. But he has no love for the Empire, I can tell you that.

Con man + untrustworthy = shady character

Eh okay. I still think you’re picking nits, but I guess this is the forum for it 😉

For me TLJ has much bigger issues than the small similarities it has to the OT.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:
And while the head has been cut off from the Republic, the First Order has not conquered the galaxy. They are trying to conquer the galaxy which is a much different thing. The galaxy free of the Empire still stands. A few worlds might have fallen under First Order control in the days since the Republic capitol and fleet were destroyed, but he question of whether they are the only ships capable of defense and if any of the planets being attacked can repel the attack remains to be seen. And in a vast galaxy, there is no way the First Order can have conquered everything in the days that have passed in the story.

I copy NeverarGreat’s response:

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Furthermore it is stated in TLJ, that the FO will control all the major systems in weeks.

I’m quite sure that the first Order will take over quite a few systems that were relying on the Republic. But the ones who listened to Leia won’t be so easy and will put up a fight. And even if the FO takes over a planet, they still have to impose their will on it and after 30 years of freedom, the people won’t take so kindly to totalitarian orders. The fight is not over and the FO will spread itself too thin to hang on in the face of opposition. Snoke has the same over confidence as Palpatine. But look at what the good guys did here. Snoke is dead. A full invasion force could not kill Luke. Kylo Ren could not kill Luke or capture a paltry band of rebels. And the story spread. The spark of hope that Leia knew they needed is exactly what they got. TLJ is an embarrassment for the FO. Like the British at Bunker Hill, more victories like that will cost them the war. Exactly what Leia is hoping for. She just made a PR coup against the FO. The Resistance/Rebels have taken out Starkiller base and Snoke’s flagship and escaped out from under them. (Yes most are dead, but Leia isn’t).

You’re joking right? The FO has decimated the New Republic, and reduced the Resistance to a single ship with a few dozen people on board. The rebellion has no personel, equipment, or funds. TLJ was a huge victory for the FO, with the Resistance getting a consolation prize with the legend of Luke Skywalker, that may have lit a spark to start rebuilding a rebellion over the years to come. This being fiction they naturally will. However, if we can call the Alliance’s victory at the end of ROTJ tenuous in real world terms, the Resistance is as dead as a door nail by TLJ’s end credits.

Until Leia goes to help her most powerful ally repel the FO invasion. Until that spark of hope she wanted spreads and grows the new rebellion. The key is that she sent out a message in hopes of a rescue. Knowing that there is a FO fleet overhead and a full scale assault army attacking, that means there are enough allies out there to make her hope of rescue logical. That they don’t come indicates they expect to have fleets coming after them just as Leia likely warned would happen. The resistance is dead, but long live the Rebellion. And this time they have the home field advantage. They aren’t throwing off the remnants of the ancient Republic, but repelling a new invasion. Nothing in this film indicates that the FO yet controls anything. They don’t control the communication system. It is coming unless it can be stopped.

Now it remains to be seen if the next film is days or years in the future. If days, then the FO is going to be defeated before they succeed. If years, then the fight is harder and they will have to win back what they lose. In either case, the Republic formed after their defeat will be stronger and still a legacy of the ROTJ victory.

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

DrDre said:

yotsuya said:

NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that.

“The FIRST ORDER reigns. Having decimated the peaceful Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke now deploys his merciless legions to seize military control of the galaxy.”

Reign:
a : royal authority : sovereignty

b : the dominion, sway, or influence of one resembling a monarch

Read what you posted. The quote from the crawl? It doesn’t mean that the First Order has taken control of any planets. It means they were victorious in the last movie. How much time has passed? Days. The First Order found out where the Resistance base was and are now moving in to wipe it out. That means very little time has passed. The Resistance has a few ships and has nearly finished the evacuation by the time the First Order arrives. No time at all. No time for Snoke’s forces to achieve any great victories or subjugate any planet. The text you posted says “now deploys” - present tense. That means it is happening, not has happened. Reigns is a bit strong for the situation that the rest of the crawl then describes. Typical of a SW crawl.

So, to resummaraize, the First Order destroyed the Republic capitol and fleet in the Hosnian system. They have regrouped after the destruction of Starkiller base (which wiped out a chuck of their power) and are attacking the Resistance base and Snoke has ordered his legions to go seize control of the galaxy. Nothing is done yet. It is in progress. That also explains why no one answers Leia’s call. They are set to defend themselves from Snoke and the First Order. Snoke and the First Order have not yet won. They have only won the first salvo.

I hate to bring in the PT, but the Clone War showed how hard it is too take a planet so nothing is going to happen overnight. You are reading too much into the word Reigns without paying attention to what the rest of it says.

Episode VIII
The Last Jedi

The FIRST ORDER reigns.
Having decimated the peaceful
Republic, Supreme Leader Snoke
now deployes his merciless
legions to seize military
control of the galaxy.

Only General Leia Organa’s
band of RESISTANCE fighters
stand against the rising
tyranny, certain that Jedi
Master Luke Skywalker will
return and restore a spark of
hope to the fight

But the Resistance has been
exposed. As the First Order
speeds toward the rebel base,
the brave heroes mount a
desperate escape…

The timeing and the second paragraph of the crawl refute your claim that the First Order has already won, as does the lack of help Leia receives when she send out the call for help. You won’t get help from people who are preparing for an attack. And the results of the film call back to this in that what Luke does on Crait is that he definitely restores a spark of hope to the fight and that final scene with the stable boys proves it. It is not a done deal yet. The fight is not over. Leia and the Resistance stand in the way and they First Order couldn’t even manage to wipe them out. Very pad PR for the First Order. Not what you want to have happen when you are trying to take over the galaxy. Oops.

The fight is not over in the OT either, yet the Empire reigns the galaxy, despite the fact that the Alliance is quite substantial. It is stated the FO reigns at the start of TLJ, and it is said in the film, that it is a matter of weeks before the FO controls all major systems. Additionally the socalled Resistance standing against the rising tyranny consists of a handful of ships at the start of the film, that are on the run, and a single piece of junk at the end of it. There’s no doubt the FO control the galaxy.

But there is doubt. Reigns really doesn’t apply and is used to show that they think they have won. They haven’t won anything yet in this movie. There is no list of planets they have taken over. There isn’t news of a single one. Yes, they stand poised to take over a nice chunk within weeks, but they still haven’t done it. Nothing has really happened except the Hosnian system has been destroyed. What we have is the setup to build a stronger Republic. After what the First Order does and in light of the failure of he second republic, do you think a third repubic is going to be stupid enough to ignore Leia’s wisdom? The Galaxy will know a brief time of turmoil and come out stronger and Rey will build a new Jedi order. Luke taught her of balance - a lesson I don’t think any Jedi has had before. That is where the Rebels series has been headed. That was the crux of the PT. I think the resolution to the saga involves balance and an at least partial redemption of Kylo Ren and achieving balance. For the people of the galaxy, it involves safety, security, and freedom. They need the Republic and they need the Jedi, but a new Jedi not bound by the old teachings. Rey has effectively broken free from the PT lineage and can create something new and better. I see this trilogy saying that the OT would give us the same old Republic and the same old Jedi with all their problems, but if we take it a step further, disrupt things, reforge things, we can give the galaxy an even better Republic and an even better Jedi. Instead of resetting things to where we find them in TPM, it is resetting things to where they were 1000 years or generations ago.

You see destruction. I see reforging.

They haven’t won anything? They’ve beaten the military opposition so badly, they fit in a single ship. That’s a win if I ever saw one. The FO were poised to take over in weeks before this win. It is a mathematical certainty now that the opposition has been eliminated.

They have beaten the Resistance that have been a thorn in their side, but they have not won. The people that escaped in the Falcon are leaders, heroes, legends. They carry the story of what Luke did on Crait (provided Leia didn’t make sure the entire galaxy knew). They are the hope and they have the advantage. They have allies and can spread the word of what is coming and that there is hope. It is a powerful PR message. The British won at Bunker Hill, but at a terrible price. The FO won at Crait, but they let the new rebels slip through their fingers. Not something they can afford to do. That is the type of hollow victory that can lose wars.