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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 263

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ThisIsCreation said:

JJ completely kneecapped Rian before Rian could even shout action.

We never saw a movie in canon take place immediately after the previous.

In star wars it has always been easy to make a character grow simply by letting time pass offscreen. Rian couldn’t do that, & while it would have been great to see atleast a year pass like Hal mentioned in his commentary so the change in atmosphere & things could have felt a little easier to accept.


I am happy with TROS (Hal’s edit remedies alot of my initial issues) it is literally this generations Return of the Jedi, and when you look at the movies from a production stand point they are very similar, so i am okay, kids will grow up and look at it as their ROTJ and that’s nice… but there is a part of me that wishes JJ would give the audience the middle finger and subvert the formula.

JJ has never made something that makes the audience think past the surface, and star wars doesn’t need to be so deep at times, but i would have killed to see something that made me feel different with each viewing.

For some reason I didn’t see this post before so I just wanted to come back here and say that these are my thoughts exactly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs

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So… something people commonly bring up in response to the criticism of Snoke lacking any backstory in TFA and TLJ is that Palpatine lacked a backstory in the OT, which I disagree with when it comes to Palps.

Palpatine was part of the original trilogy, it was a new universe part of a new franchise, there were no movies nor prequels for it to contradict, the existence of Palpatine does not contradict anything that was before A New Hope and therefore does not need a backstory in order to patch up these plot holes and explain why he makes perfect sense.

I do see as to where those who criticize Snoke’s supposed lack of backstory in TFA and TLJ are coming from…

They believe his existence in TFA and TLJ contradicts the original saga, that “we are supposed to believe at this point that he had existed the entire time due to how old he appears to be and acts, and yet he chose not to interfere for no reason at all.”

In other words, people are saying Snoke himself is a plot hole whereas Palpatine wasn’t because there was no information before the original trilogy for Palpatine to contradict which would create plot holes.

Again, I agree with what they’re saying about Palps, they’re saying he didn’t need a backstory because he isn’t a plot hole, and I do see where they’re coming from when it comes to Snoke, they’re saying his mere existence is a plot hole since he supposedly existed during the OT.

I understand what they’re trying to say, but I disagree with this notion that “Snoke is a plot hole and needed a backstory to fill in that plot hole”.

As I pointed out in another post, Snoke’s backstory is already inferable from TFA alone, and this relies on inference.

Snoke was an old Force-sensitive being who was in hiding during the original trilogy because, at that point, Palpatine was already ruling the galaxy and had not only a Sith apprentice but also an Empire to back him up. If Snoke went out to interfere during the original trilogy, Palpatine would have sent in his forces to annihilate Snoke, he is just one guy against the organization that is ruling the galaxy.

So, Snoke chose to go into hiding, waiting for Palpatine to die and for the Empire to collapse — only after RotJ, after Palpatine died and the Empire became crippled, did Snoke get the chance to interfere and fill in the power vacuum without anyone annihilating him.

Some might call me out for using “mental gymnastics” and might say that “there is nothing from TFA from which we can infer Snoke’s backstory,” which I disagree with, as there is evidence left out in TFA from which Snoke’s backstory is inferable.

In the original trilogy, it is established Palpatine is ruling the galaxy and has a Sith apprentice as well as an Empire to back him up.

Snoke clearly did not interfere during the original trilogy, and he clearly chose not to, say, assassinate Palpatine. This implies Palpatine is stronger than Snoke, and that Snoke is a coward who hid from the Galactic Empire for his safety, waiting for them to perish — that Snoke is just one dude (who has nothing) against a man who runs the organization that is ruling the galaxy and has who is essentially a hitman.

This is an inference.

I’ve seen people point out that Snoke is so powerful he can corrupt other Force-sensitives from faraway distances without meeting them in person whereas Palpatine repeatedly met Anakin in person and it took a decade until his corruption of Anakin was complete, which is incorrect. There was no indication he can do this from faraway distances, and even then it is clear Leia and Han had met him in person, how else do they know about them. Thus, it is inferable he groomed Ben in person without Leia and Han realizing.

I’ve also seen people point out that Snoke seemingly has infinite resources, enough to build the First Order — basically saying that he should have built some sort of army to, say, deal with the Galactic Empire during the original trilogy —, which is incorrect. Notice how there is a trench in Starkiller Base — this implies the First Order strip-mined the planets for its resources to build its ships, machinery and all that, hence the trench clearly visible from space.

And yeah, I do acknowledge that it was revealed in TRoS that Palpatine created Snoke himself, but this post is focusing more on specifically TFA and TLJ, which was released before TRoS. (I should also note that Snoke’s backstory needed to be changed in TRoS to reinforce Palpatine as the mastermind behind everything.)

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Best I can sum up for myself is that he just isn’t very compelling as a character. I don’t find Snoke confusing or a plot hole, he’s just very cookie cutter with little to weak motivation. I think when people are clamoring for some backstory it’s motivation they’re really after, particularly I felt like TLJ went overboard making his character a mustache twirler for the sake of it when he didn’t have to be. He can still be a power obsessed Sith, pure evil without compromise, but especially since we’ve already been there before I find it really sticks out how one dimensional he appears. He’s like a substitute, the first order by itself has more nuance.

If Snoke had been more aware of the dyad and was seeking it out as means to another end I would have felt at least he had specific goals beyond filling the Emperor’s shoes. Actually the fact that he is one of many puppet clones in a throwaway explanation at the beginning of TROS is the most interesting detail about him, pretty much by default. I didn’t need exposition to clear things up, I needed something to hook into to make me care.

“The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.” - DV

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Snoke is nothing but another one of Abrams’ empty mystery boxes, and Johnson saw right through it.

I’ve noticed that many of the flaws in the ST were set up by Abrams, yet I hardly ever see any criticism directed at him.

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fmalover said:

Snoke is nothing but another one of Abrams’ empty mystery boxes, and Johnson saw right through it.

I’ve noticed that many of the flaws in the ST were set up by Abrams, yet I hardly ever see any criticism directed at him.

Pretty sure many of the people who have massive issues with JJ’s take on the ST simply don’t engage with the ST at all. The only people that both dislike JJ’s take and engage with the ST are those with a masochistic or obsessively Star Wars completionist streak, such as myself.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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 (Edited)

fmalover said:

I’ve noticed that many of the flaws in the ST were set up by Abrams, yet I hardly ever see any criticism directed at him.

I mean, maybe if you live on Mars or just… Don’t interact with any Star Wars forums?

Abrams gets plenty of heat for TFA and TROS.

As far as I’m concerned Rian simply made a pretentious crappy film, but it was after the utter mess JJ started with TFA, and then JJ pushed the whole garbage pile into the trash compactor with TROS.

I don’t really level any of the “blame” squarely on the directors; it’s obvious the trilogy was corporate focus-grouped to death by the higher ups, so it’s whatever. Easier to just ignore them than spend any energy trying to rationalize them.

But hey, that’s just, like, my opinion man.

If I were to give some credit to Rian it’d be that he at least made a movie that resembles a movie, which was more than I could say for whatever that last thing was.

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fmalover said:

Snoke is nothing but another one of Abrams’ empty mystery boxes, and Johnson saw right through it.

I’ve noticed that many of the flaws in the ST were set up by Abrams, yet I hardly ever see any criticism directed at him.

IKR? It really irritates me how people blame most of JJ’s fuckups on Rian.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Budu1ux09Rs