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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 259

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snooker said:

For anyone who wants to see pure hatred for something:

https://old.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/

I really like this movie, and reading some threads over on that Reddit make me feel really uneasy.

Threads such as “Does Rey have any friends?”, “The cinematography in TLJ is overrated”, and the great “All 50+ times Mark Hamill tried to subtly warn us about last jedi/force awakens and bashed Disney”

FFS

Reddit is an abyss like twitter and youtube comments. Don’t stare into it for too long!

How come Mark is largely getting a pass from these fans while other SW actors get crap thrown at them? The people who think he’s somehow going to secretly record new dialog for a fanedit are a whole new level of denial.

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Gothamknight said:

DominicCobb said:
You couldn’t pay me enough to watch that trash.

I’m curious, Dom: what would your response be if I said the very same thing about TLJ before having seen it? Would you consider that a reasonable stance, or unreasonable?

I feel that way about every Cinemasins video, even for movies I hate. It’s only just amplified when it’s a movie I love.

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Gothamknight said:

One of my biggest disappointments is not seeing the Big Three on screen together one last time. There were just SO MANY better ways the writing could have gone for both these films.

This is also my biggest gripe with TFA. I’m convinced Abrams fell in love with the idea of that overly dramatic TFA cliffhanger ending and forced the script and characters to lead into it.

Imagine one last adventure with the old gang properly passing the torch to the new cast. Imagine the drama of Han being reunited with Luke and Leia, only to sacrifice himself heroically to save them soon after, and how bittersweet that reunion/separation would be (and imagine the tension of Luke watching his nephew and former student – and Leia watching her son – kill his father in front of him). Imagine Leia leading the resistance with Luke standing by her side at the end of TFA. Imagine the conflict within Luke as he trains Rey in TLJ (actually TRAINS her and watches her become a Jedi) in order to confront Kylo after Luke’s failed training (derivative, but so much of TFA is already derivative it hardly matters).

It’s God damn depressing.

SilverWook said:

snooker said:

For anyone who wants to see pure hatred for something:

https://old.reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/

I really like this movie, and reading some threads over on that Reddit make me feel really uneasy.

Threads such as “Does Rey have any friends?”, “The cinematography in TLJ is overrated”, and the great “All 50+ times Mark Hamill tried to subtly warn us about last jedi/force awakens and bashed Disney”

FFS

Reddit is an abyss like twitter and youtube comments. Don’t stare into it for too long!

How come Mark is largely getting a pass from these fans while other SW actors get crap thrown at them? The people who think he’s somehow going to secretly record new dialog for a fanedit are a whole new level of denial.

Because Hamill has said in multiple interviews that he wasn’t on board with Luke’s arc in TLJ, but that it was his job as an actor to play the role and trust the writer (calling out Rian Johnson by name each time). He gets a pass from these fans because he’s willing to bite the hand that feeds him and, in their eyes, defend the franchise as they want it to be rather than what it is now; his character is dead and probably only eligible for a walk-on as a Force ghost in future installments anyway. He didn’t sound too happy about his 30 seconds of screen time in TFA either.

Hamill is solidly defending female cast members from the nasty attacks as he should, but it’s pretty clear where he falls creatively.

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George really should have made a trilogy with the OT cast in the late 80’s/early 90’s. That would have been the second coming. Or not.

I’m not sure Hamill is biting the hand. The youtube videos that attempt to read between the lines of Mark’s public statements are on a level with the people who think The Shining is Kubrick’s confession to faking the Moon landings. 😉

I don’t think Mark wants to be the fandom fringe torch bearer either way.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

George really should have made a trilogy with the OT cast in the late 80’s/early 90’s. That would have been the second coming. Or not.

I’m not sure Hamill is biting the hand. The youtube videos that attempt to read between the lines of Mark’s public statements are on a level with the people who think The Shining is Kubrick’s confession to faking the Moon landings. 😉

I don’t think Mark wants to be the fandom fringe torch bearer either way.

There’s no reading between the lines required in some of these interviews. Hamill clearly didn’t agree with Rian’s version of Luke and he’s said so repeatedly.

I agree that he isn’t looking to be a torch bearer, but he’s also admirable for calling it like he sees it and not being full of shit.

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The things you pwn end up pwning you.

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SilverWook said:

George really should have made a trilogy with the OT cast in the late 80’s/early 90’s. That would have been the second coming. Or not.

I’m not sure Hamill is biting the hand. The youtube videos that attempt to read between the lines of Mark’s public statements are on a level with the people who think The Shining is Kubrick’s confession to faking the Moon landings. 😉

I don’t think Mark wants to be the fandom fringe torch bearer either way.

Mark has been open that this wasn’t what he had in mind for the character, but he’s also been equally as open about how much he likes the film. Convenient how the YouTube videos ignore that. Reading between the lines is accurate because they bring his statements beyond what they’re plainly stating to conclusions that he clearly isn’t making, while in reality Mark has always been nothing but outspoken, honest, and straightforward in his opinions.

Remember when someone posted a video here of him and Rian doing some playful banter and tried to pass it off as them hating each other when it clearly showed the opposite?

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even if he loves the film dom, he still isn’t very fond of what his character turned out to be. he appreciates what rian was trying to do and how well he pulled it off, that’s usually what he says, but he never says how he loves his character in tbe movie or anything like that.

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DominicCobb said:

SilverWook said:

George really should have made a trilogy with the OT cast in the late 80’s/early 90’s. That would have been the second coming. Or not.

I’m not sure Hamill is biting the hand. The youtube videos that attempt to read between the lines of Mark’s public statements are on a level with the people who think The Shining is Kubrick’s confession to faking the Moon landings. 😉

I don’t think Mark wants to be the fandom fringe torch bearer either way.

Mark has been open that this wasn’t what he had in mind for the character, but he’s also been equally as open about how much he likes the film. Convenient how the YouTube videos ignore that. Reading between the lines is accurate because they bring his statements beyond what they’re plainly stating to conclusions that he clearly isn’t making, while in reality Mark has always been nothing but outspoken, honest, and straightforward in his opinions.

Remember when someone posted a video here of him and Rian doing some playful banter and tried to pass it off as them hating each other when it clearly showed the opposite?

I got the impression, that he respects RJ as a creator and director, and accepts that the franchise has moved on, and that this may be the best way forward, even if he had a different vision for Luke’s future. However, he has been very vocal about his reservations towards Luke’s arc in the ST, and that he holds those views to this day. He seems to be very close to George Lucas, and has stated many times, that he regrets, that Lucas is no longer involved, and that Lucas had very different plans for his character. So, I think he accepts the current situation, but I can’t help but get the impression, that he would have preferred a very different outcome.

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TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted.

Or more generally:

TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

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DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted, or more generally, TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

you confuse me

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TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

That has been my understanding of his statements since day 1

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dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted, or more generally, TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

you confuse me

Frink has a habit of perpetuating the false belief, that criticism of TLJ stems from not getting what you wanted. He made a similar erroneous statement in response to NeverarGreat’s criticisms yesterday, and now seems to be making another blanket statement, that Mark Hamill is different from some undefined group of people, that in his mind dislike TLJ, solely because they didn’t get the Luke Skywalker they wanted.

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DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted, or more generally, TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

you confuse me

Frink has a habit of perpetuating the false belief, that criticism of TLJ stems from not getting what you wanted. He made a similar erroneous statement in response to NeverarGreat’s criticisms yesterday, and now seems to be making another blanket statement, that Mark Hamill is different from some undefined group of people, that in his mind dislike TLJ, solely because they didn’t get the Luke Skywalker they wanted.

maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t. You seem to have a habit of bringing up Luke’s supposed hatred of TLJ to defend your opinions.

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dahmage said:

DrDre said:

dahmage said:

DrDre said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

The difference with whom? It seems logical to me, that if you dislike a movie, it’s not the movie you wanted. It seems falicious to me, to assume that automatically means the reverse is also true, if someone says TLJ is not the movie they wanted, that must also be the reason they think it is bad. This is what we call a false equivalence. I will do another one:

Since Frink thinks TLJ is good, it must have been exactly the movie he wanted, or more generally, TLJ fans think the movie is good, because it’s exactly the movie they wanted.

you confuse me

Frink has a habit of perpetuating the false belief, that criticism of TLJ stems from not getting what you wanted. He made a similar erroneous statement in response to NeverarGreat’s criticisms yesterday, and now seems to be making another blanket statement, that Mark Hamill is different from some undefined group of people, that in his mind dislike TLJ, solely because they didn’t get the Luke Skywalker they wanted.

maybe he does, maybe he doesn’t. You seem to have a habit of bringing up Luke’s supposed hatred of TLJ to defend your opinions.

I didn’t bring up anything, nor did I imply Mark Hamill hates TLJ. The discussion regarding Mark Hamill was already ongoing, and I haven’t mentioned Mark Hamill’s stance on Luke’s character in TLJ in months, so I don’t really know what you’re getting at. In fact I had not discussed TLJ for months until a discussion about politics in the Solo review thread let to the creation of Jay’s dedicated politics thread.

I do sense a habit of painting critics of the current generation of Star Wars movies and their creators with the same brush, though. The atmosphere here is decidedly unwelcoming with each positive link posted on TLJ being praised to high heaven, and each more critical link met with responses of how we’re not going to read this, and how we don’t need that, or how an percentage of critics is unknowingly a closet misogynist, and a sexist.

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Maybe it’s more nuanced than that, and maybe those critical pieces are not very good articles/videos whatever.

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dahmage said:

Maybe it’s more nuanced than that, and maybe those critical pieces are not very good articles/videos whatever.

Maybe so, but these people wouldn’t know, because they don’t read, or watch them. Critics are condoned in these boards.
You can post your links, but we’re not going to read them anyway, and we’ll let you know, because we don’t serve your kind here. I’ve seen many a critic disappear from these boards for exactly this reason, but you know, whatever…

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dahmage said:

fans disappear too

Yes, but unlike those fans, I have had private discussions with these critics. If there are fans out there who feel bullied by the few critics who are left, I would very much like to hear about it.

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dahmage said:

TV’s Frink said:

I guess the difference is that Mark didn’t get the Luke or the movie he originally wanted, but he also understands that doesn’t make the movie bad.

That has been my understanding of his statements since day 1

Yessir.

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One thought I had, but what does everyone feel about the critical response? There are certain movies where it will be obvious they’re over praising something for one reason or another. But with this … is the negative audience that still yells about this six months later truly a minority? Though even I remember AOTC getting 5/5 in a certain print magazine… (right about here I got tired of even thinking about this, so I guess I’m done debating the matter? Eh)

Yub Nub for life

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Unless someone actually undertakes a door to door style polling campaign, I don’t think many us will trust any measure of the number of happy vs unhappy fans.

For me, i think the majority of the positive critical response is deserved.

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I am honestly somewhat mixed on the movie by now.

I have grown to really dislike what they did with Luke but at the same time, a lot of the risks it took did pay off for me. I loved what they did with Snoke and Rey’s parentage. The writing was really brilliant in some areas as well when it came to Kylo and Rey’s interactions. Overall, I think it is a very good movie.

I just have some major issues with the direction they went with. Actually quite similar to how Jay described his feelings on the sequel trilogy. So I do kind of agree with Frink here. I enjoy the movie far less than I maybe could because it went in a direction that I found unsatisfying. But that direction also connects with many other people besides myself.

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It’s actually hard for me to find big things to actively dislike in the story of TLJ despite my nitpicks.
I like what they did with Luke’s character
I like the message of Canto Bight
I like the flawed leadership of Holdo
I like the arcs of pretty much every character

It’s just that there is too much in this movie, even with a 2.5 hour runtime, and nothing gets room to breathe or even get fully explored. Combine this with its overall tonal issues and it feels like I’m a stone being thrown across the surface of a lake, never slowing down enough to become immersed in the world.

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