It’s only creepy in Kylo’s version of events.
And who hasn’t hovered over someone’s bed with a ignited lightsaber at some point? There are some mornings that would work better than the threat of a bucket of cold water, at least for me.
Where were you in '77?
Luke doesn’t read Ben’s thoughts.
Luke doesn’t read Ben’s thoughts.
Those are semantics in my view. Luke secretly entered Ben’s private quarters, put his hand above Ben’s head, and extracted information about Ben’s state of mind/his feelings/his heart without Ben’s permission while he slept.
Damn! This peeping is not a good idea. It’s too tempting to respond.
What should Luke have done, hire a private investigator? I think a Jedi Master has the right to investigate a student suspected of flirting with the dark side. You can’t apply real world concepts of privacy to the GFFA.
Maybe if the Jedi council had been more inquisitive about what Anakin did on Tatooine, or where he often spent his nights, the galaxy would be a different place.
Where were you in '77?
What should Luke have done, hire a private investigator? I think a Jedi Master has the right to investigate a student suspected of flirting with the dark side. You can’t apply real world concepts of privacy to the GFFA.
Maybe if the Jedi council had been more inquisitive about what Anakin did on Tatooine, or where he often spent his nights, the galaxy would be a different place.
Well it’s all about trust, as Rey notes in the film, I believe. TLJ makes a strong case, that Luke’s actions pushed Ben over the edge, resulting in Ben destroying the Jedi Temple over Luke’s betrayal. The problem is that TLJ doesn’t bother to explain what put Luke in this state of mind (or Ben for that matter) other than sensing some darkness. That apparently is enough to get the more reasonable options off the table, and sneak into your students room to probe him for information. He might have confronted Ben, if he felt uneasy about the situation, rather than trying to obtain the information in such a dodgy way. In my view there needed to have been some sort of incident in the film, that caused Luke to lose his cool, and cross some boundaries in order to protect his other students.
Ben? Are you falling to the Dark Side?
No, Master Skywalker!
Good! Carry on with your exercises then!
Ben had already fallen to the Dark Side, and probably already swayed the students that left with him. (Presumably they became the Knights of Ren?) His reaction to Luke wasn’t feeling betrayed by his master, it was being found out. Luke’s school was doomed whether he went in Ben’s room that night or not.
Where were you in '77?
Ben? Are you falling to the Dark Side?
No, Master Skywalker!
Good! Carry on with your exercises then!
Ben had already fallen to the Dark Side, and probably already swayed the students that left with him. (Presumably they became the Knights of Ren?) His reaction to Luke wasn’t feeling betrayed by his master, it was being found out. Luke’s school was doomed whether he went in Ben’s room that night or not.
We’re talking about a confrontation between a Jedi Master and his apprentice, not between a chemistry teacher and a student. Of course Ben would know Luke can sense his feelings and vice versa. Therefore lying about it wouldn’t help Ben in any way. The difference is, that this way would be honorable and out in the open, with Ben aware of the situation. However, like I said, since the film didn’t bother to give us some context, it’s all speculation, and all we have is a fearful Luke sneaking into Ben’s room, rather than face the issue head on, for some unknown reason.
First of all, I don’t think “Luke sneaking into his apprentice’s room” is a huge deal to start with. It’s his nephew, it’s not that creepy. Not to mention it wasn’t his intent to kill Ben when he entered, I honestly doubt he even considered the possibility beforehand.
Second of all, it’s not like he hacked into his laptop and looked at Ben’s search history. Luke was searching Ben’s feelings, this is something Jedi do practically 24/7. He just decided to do it when Ben was asleep because that would give him the clearest picture. Is that a bit of a breach of privacy? Sure, of course it is (though not to the extent you’re making it out to be). Luke was afraid of Ben’s potential. He wanted to find out what was in his heart, and what his future was. Could he have handled the situation better? Yes, but that’s the point. In his hubris he thought he could take matters into his own hands. When he realized his mistake, it left him with shame and consequence.
First of all, I don’t think “Luke sneaking into his apprentice’s room” is a huge deal to start with. It’s his nephew, it’s not that creepy. Not to mention it wasn’t his intent to kill Ben when he entered, I honestly doubt he even considered the possibility beforehand.
Second of all, it’s not like he hacked into his laptop and looked at Ben’s search history. Luke was searching Ben’s feelings, this is something Jedi do practically 24/7. He just decided to do it when Ben was asleep because that would give him the clearest picture. Is that a bit of a breach of privacy? Sure, of course it is (though not to the extent you’re making it out to be). Luke was afraid of Ben’s potential. He wanted to find out what was in his heart, and what his future was. Could he have handled the situation better? Yes, but that’s the point. In his hubris he thought he could take matters into his own hands. When he realized his mistake, it left him with shame and consequence.
Yes, but for me the problem is, that a Jedi should be able to control his or her fear, and make rational decisions, especially one who has seen and experienced far worse than one student’s dark feelings. Luke is acting out of character without having been provided the proper motivation. He is a Jedi Master afterall, not some novice. I can accept Luke becoming emotionally compromised (like Mace Windu was in ROTS), but considering Luke’s history and experiences, it would have to be something pretty shocking, like Ben willfully injuring one of his fellow students, and seeming to enjoy the experience. If Ben had stormed off after doing something that terrible, I can picture a shaken Luke sneaking into Ben’s room at night, still angry about what has happened, wanting to protect his students. The anger would cause Luke to ignite his lightsaber, once again showing that the dark side is always a danger even to a Jedi Master. That would have worked for me, as Luke was then properly provoked, then tempted, and subsequently controlled his anger, even of it was too late.
A Jedi should be able to control his fear, for the most part, sure. But this is probably the scariest thing Luke has ever faced, I think expecting him to act completely perfect in this situation is downright silly. Ben is not “one student.” You can’t just fucking call him that. He’s Luke’s nephew. He’s the next Skywalker, which of course means a great potential for power but also a great potential for darkness.
It’s pretty easy to see why sensing darkness in Ben would freak him out to the point of trying to ascertain for sure where his heart’s at. If Ben had done something drastic beforehand, I’m not sure Luke would’ve even handled it this way. This is just Luke trying to get ahead of a situation before it turns bad. Sneaking into his nephew’s bedroom to sense his feelings isn’t even that irrational.
Not to mention, when Luke first tells the story it’s that he went to Ben’s hut to confront him. Obviously it didn’t go down that way, but I think it’s fair to assume that this was probably Luke’s initial plan. Note that the first flashback is the only time we see Luke before he enters the hut - in Luke’s second telling he’s already there - so it’s not unreasonable to assume this part of the prior telling is true. The implication being, Luke sensed darkness in him, went to confront him but before he did he decided to get a better look, saw more than he could have imagined which caused him in a brief moment of pure instinct to ignite his lightsaber, and then… you know.
The thing is, this isn’t the act of “some novice.” This is the act of a master who everyone, including to an extent himself, thinks can’t make mistakes. And yes, he is emotionally compromised. But what has prepared him for this? Especially when it’s implied there has been balance and peace for almost 30 years, how could Luke have been so perfect as to dodge this fear? Just because Luke is a Jedi master means he’s incapable of being afraid?
There is nothing out of character about this. It is 100% in character.
A Jedi should be able to control his fear, for the most part, sure. But this is probably the scariest thing Luke has ever faced, I think expecting him to act completely perfect in this situation is downright silly.
Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor? Scarrier than losing your hand, and having to decide whether to live and join your Nazi father, or fall to what would have seemed certain death? Scarrier than facing the Emperor, a man who turned your once good father into space Hitler? I think comparing Ben’s dark feelings, and the possibility of suffering in the future, to actually experiencing suffering of yourself and others is rather silly.
Ben is not “one student.” You can’t just fucking call him that. He’s Luke’s nephew. He’s the next Skywalker, which of course means a great potential for power but also a great potential for darkness.
Sure, but Luke has faced much worse than a nephew with a great potential for darkness. He’s faced his father who was as dark as dark can be, and he faced that prospect with courage and conviction.
It’s pretty easy to see why sensing darkness in Ben would freak him out to the point of trying to ascertain for sure where his heart’s at. If Ben had done something drastic beforehand, I’m not sure Luke would’ve even handled it this way. This is just Luke trying to get ahead of a situation before it turns bad. Sneaking into his nephew’s bedroom to sense his feelings isn’t even that irrational.
Luke had grown past just freaking out without serious provocation, that’s what the entire throne room sequence in ROTJ was about. Luke was goaded by the two most evil people in the galaxy, facing his friends being slaughtered in a space battle without being able to help them. In the end Luke resigned himself, and threw away his lightsaber, realising that the dark side cannot be beaten with sheer force. In my view RJ hasn’t presented us with anything to trump that experience to make it credible, that Luke, the Jedi who threw away his lightsaber facing the Emperor, would freak out to that extend by something, that may happen in a possible future, when he was able to alter the course of history for something equally if not more terrible, that really happened in the GFFA.
The thing is, this isn’t the act of “some novice.” This is the act of a master who everyone, including to an extent himself, thinks can’t make mistakes. And yes, he is emotionally compromised. But what has prepared him for this? Especially when it’s implied there has been balance and peace for almost 30 years, how could Luke have been so perfect as to dodge this fear? Just because Luke is a Jedi master means he’s incapable of being afraid?
There is nothing out of character about this. It is 100% in character.
Luke was prepared. Remember Han and Leia’s conversation in TFA:
HAN
There was nothing we could’ve done. There was too much Vader in him.
LEIA
That’s why I wanted him to train with Luke. I just never should have sent him away. That’s when I lost him. That’s when I lost you both.
So, from this conversation it’s clear, that when Leia sent Ben to Luke, he was already struggling with darkness. So, Luke like Leia must have been aware of the growing darkness, hoping he could turn the tide. He obviously failed, but this conversation doesn’t rhyme with Luke being caught off guard by Ben’s dark side. So, I maintain Luke had experienced far worse situations than a potential bad outcome. In my view, that Luke would not just have given up his conviction, that Ben could be saved from the dark side like his father. That Luke would not have lost his cool without serious provocation by real events. For me that is the character of Luke Skywalker, that has been build up for three films, and a sixty second flashback is not enough to negate all that development, and turn Luke into a shell of his former self. Of course for you it may be different…
Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor?
Apparently so according to Luke himself:
“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.”
In that dialog he is talking about Ben, so I guess he sees the potential in Ben to be even worse that Darth Vader or the Emperor
Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor?
Apparently so according to Luke himself:
“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.”
In that dialog he is talking about Ben, so I guess he sees the potential in Ben to be even worse that Darth Vader or the Emperor
Vader was a quadruple amputee in his 50’s and had weakened himself to unimaginable extent after he lost to Obi-Wan in Mustafar. So Kylo Ren in terms of raw strength might’ve been in Vader’s league. However, I don’t think Luke had that much time and was enough in tune with the force both times he faced Vader to be able to sense his raw strength. I think he was more focused in Vader’s feelings in RotJ and in ESB he was just shitting his pants, really.
Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor?
Apparently so according to Luke himself:
“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.”
In that dialog he is talking about Ben, so I guess he sees the potential in Ben to be even worse that Darth Vader or the Emperor
I disagree. Luke never saw anyone’s raw strength before he started training students, since both Vader and the Emperor had already mastered the Force. So, his only source of reference are his other students, and Ben in the case of Rey, who obviously didn’t turn out that well.
Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).
As for Leia’s words, I took it that every Skywalker has Vader in them, Ben (and Luke) included. Yeah, Luke knew he had that potential, but it didn’t scare him enough at first, he thought he could teach him. It wasn’t until he saw it rear its ugly head during moments of Ben’s training that he decided to confront him.
who hasn’t hovered over someone’s bed with a ignited lightsaber at some point? There are some mornings that would work better than the threat of a bucket of cold water, at least for me.
Most mornings, I’d just wake up, roll over and say “Go right ahead.” 😉
I don’t think “Luke sneaking into his apprentice’s room” is a huge deal to start with. It’s his nephew, it’s not that creepy.
lolwat.
Scarriest thing, really?!!! Scarrier than facing Darth Vader, the man who murdered your father and your mentor?
Apparently so according to Luke himself:
“I’ve seen this raw strength only once before. It didn’t scare me enough then. It does now.”
In that dialog he is talking about Ben, so I guess he sees the potential in Ben to be even worse that Darth Vader or the Emperor
Vader was a quadruple amputee in his 50’s and had weakened himself to unimaginable extent after he lost to Obi-Wan in Mustafar. So Kylo Ren in terms of raw strength might’ve been in Vader’s league. However, I don’t think Luke had that much time and was enough in tune with the force both times he faced Vader to be able to sense his raw strength. I think he was more focused in Vader’s feelings in RotJ and in ESB he was just shitting his pants, really.
Luke has no way of knowing Vader’s raw strength, meaning before Vader was trained as a Jedi.
Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).
Yeah, but what the basis is for that fear, and pain other than the vague concept of “darkness in his heart” is unknown. All we saw was a young boy lying in his bed, which isn’t much at all IMO, considering this:
Which would cause you more emotional trauma.
The first one is trauma for sure, but I don’t think it compares at all the the extreme trauma of the second one. The second one brings back the first trauma, and then adds layers and layers of extra trauma on top.
So yeah, Luke was pretty upset that he failed Leah and Klyo.
And i posted this earlier, but there is a good chance i deleted the post. but in my take on things, the luke we saw in the OT was three movies of a young idealistic kid who valued his own take on things above anyone elses. He trusted himself to be right more than he trusted what anyone told him. When these types of people fail, the fail HARD. I am this type of person.
From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.
I don’t think “Luke sneaking into his apprentice’s room” is a huge deal to start with. It’s his nephew, it’s not that creepy.
lolwat.
I’m not saying it’s normal, I’m just saying it’s not like he’s some random teacher, they’re family so it’s a lot less weird that they’d enter each other’s personal spaces without knocking. (I mean yeah there are things Luke could do that’d make the family connection be more creepy, but let’s not go there.)
It’s tough when there’s no real world analogue to what Luke does in there. I guess it’s kinda like if he went in at night to have a talk with his nephew about his potential psychopathy but first happened to see his journal by the door and opened it and found crazed ramblings about plans to kill everyone. Or something.
I don’t think “Luke sneaking into his apprentice’s room” is a huge deal to start with. It’s his nephew, it’s not that creepy.
lolwat.
yeah no, i think Dom is right. I don’t know the exact setup of a Jedi training place, but i wouldn’t expect that privacy is a thing that the students expected.
Also, Luke also walked up to Rey and was standing there when she woke up, and said “first lesson at dawn”. Same type of entrance to an apprentices’ dorm.
Absolutely the scariest thing. Obviously I’m not talking about the immediate threat, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that Kylo brought Luke more pain than Vader (I’m talking emotionally here).
Yeah, but what the basis is for that fear, and pain other than the vague concept of “darkness in his heart” is unknown. All we saw was a young boy lying in his bed, which isn’t much at all IMO, considering this:
No, he sees someone who will bring to an end everything and everyone that he spent his entire life building and loving.
From what we see and are told in the movie, apparently Luke didn’t even try to talk to Ben before going to him in his hut. And that’s just insane for me. We’re talking about the guy who surrendered himself to the Empire to have some alone time with Hitler to try to convince him that he’s actually a good guy.
Luke does not go to Ben’s hut to kill him.