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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 163

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

Side question, have you seen the film more than once?

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Yes.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Ok. Just trying to see if there is any correlation between number of viewings and impression of that scene. I hope that didn’t seem like a rude question.

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Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

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Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

That’s the point for Poe, that he can now see when a suicide mission is a suicide mission instead of just an opportunity for heroism. The point for Finn is he doesn’t care if it’s a suicide mission or not, as long as he saves the Resistance. The point for Finn isn’t affected by Rose saving him either, because the intention is what matters here.

But my interpretation of the scene is that, had Rose not saved Finn, he would’ve killed himself and succeeded in destroying the weapon and therefore saving everyone/buying them more than enough time. If this was the case, then Rose was very selfish by saving him.

The situation in the end works for every character except for Rose.

Rose is just following through on Poe’s assessment. You could just as easily give that moment to Poe, their intentions are the exact same (and it’s not a selfish act, Rose didn’t “stop him,” she “saved him, dummy”). The reason it’s given to Rose is because that’s her role in the film, the angel on Finn’s shoulder guiding him toward the good. She taught him to become a member of the Resistance, which he follows through on, but he still has more to learn. This is just her next lesson.

Again, it’s obvious the filmmakers’ wanted you to be on Rose’s side here. It’s not something that I thought was an issue when I saw the film, but if you misinterpreted that then I guess they needed to make the pointlessness of Finn’s potential sacrifice clearer.

Their intentions are not the same because Poe was trying to save the most amount of people by calling off the attack.

Rose decided that saving Finn was more important than the rest of the Resistance.

What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.

Poe: call off the attack, save everyone in the skimmers, let the ram blow open the door
Rose: save Finn (the only skimmer not yet falling back), let the ram blow open the door

The intentions are exactly the same. Poe explicitly orders Finn to fall back. Rose just forces him to.

Rose spells it all out, what’s important in winning the war is saving people.

I can see your point, and it does make sense. But I think that the circumstances are different enough to make their intentions different.

Poe had a plan to try to save everyone. Then he saw that his plan would not only fail in doing so, but it would definitely get all those who were involved in it killed.

He called off the attack hoping that they could still find a way to destroy the weapon and live to fight another day, and in doing so, saving the most amount of lives he possibly could.

Finn then found a way, but it would cost him his life. However, since he’s now willing to give himself to the cause, that’s not a problem anymore. And when he was almost there, about to succeed and save everyone, Rose saved him, spelling certain death to all the rebels that Finn would’ve saved.

The thing is, Finn didn’t “find a way,” he was just following through on the original plan (only with certain death involved). Poe knew exactly what he was doing and told him to stop.

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dahmage said:

Ok. Just trying to see if there is any correlation between number of viewings and impression of that scene. I hope that didn’t seem like a rude question.

I didn’t have very strong feelings on the direction of that scene the first time. I didn’t like that it seemed like they were going to kill him off and I thought that Rose’s reason for stopping him was lame. On balance, I prefer that he survived. The second time around I didn’t have the annoyance of “oh…they’re really going to kill him,” and then “just kidding!”

The blue elephant in the room.

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DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

You said, “When Finn gets into kamikaze mode, we see the ram start to tear his skimmer apart. It’s clear he won’t even make it, let alone blow the whole thing up.”

It’s not at all clear. We are supposed to believe it is possible. That’s what makes it heroic. I think Finn should already have disintegrated given what the laser was doing to the door. But the movie had other ideas and allowed him to get closer and closer with little damage. Also, Finn seems to have a good handle on Imperial weaponry and technology. So it was at least possible - whatever thoughts Poe was having. And it was the idea that Finn could have destroyed it that made Rose’s action meaningful too. Otherwise she would have just been stopping him from being foolish, not because love.

The blue elephant in the room.

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This whole discussion could have been avoided if there was a blinking indicator or something that told Poe that the ship wouldn’t do enough damage to destroy the weapon. Something that changed the conditions so that Finn would still be heroic and Rose would be sensible.

Why don’t you say something righteous and hopeful for a change? - oojason
Episode 9 Rewrite THE SHATTERED SWORD (Complete!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V3 Released!) and The Starlight Project (WORKPRINT RELEASED!)

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As someone who really does like this film, this confuses me too. What was their plan, initially? As has been said, they never fire guns at the thing, assuming they even have guns, so was it always a suicide plan? How else could they have possibly taken it down? But if so, what changes in Poe between launching that mission and abandoning that mission? All of his character beats happen before the mission even starts. The lesson of the day isn’t that sacrificing yourself is bad. Because, you know, he learned his lesson from Holdo, who sacrificed herself. The idea, as I understand it, is supposed to be to understand that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. That it’s foolish to do pointlessly heroic things for pointlessly heroic deaths. That’s the contrast between Poe’s Dreadnaught attack and Holdo’s sacrifice. Poe causes a huge part of their fighters to get killed for a glorious victory when they could have simply turned tail and lived to fight another day. Holdo killed herself solely so that her comrades in arms could live to fight another day.

However, what Finn was about to do feels much more in line with the latter example than the former example. Finn was going to sacrifice himself, not for glory, but so that his friends might live. This is exactly what Holdo did. So I just don’t get why Rose and particularly Poe are against it, especially since I don’t understand what Poe’s plan was in the first place.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

ExNihilo said:

DominicCobb said:

Even if Finn makes it, in a melted skimmer I can’t see how that’d do much.

And I meant there are other ways to blow open that big ass door, I’m sure.

It looked like just peripheries like the guns. Fuselage was intact just prior to Rose’s interception.
They are practically at the mouth of the cannon. I have trouble buying he wasn’t going to make it or he wasn’t going to do much damage.

I guess this really does come down to individual perception. I just didn’t see it the same way you did.

Well obviously the reaction says they could have made this clearer, as many people have misinterpreted the scene. I took it, when Poe called it off as a “suicide mission,” that it wasn’t worth it, and that’s all I needed to know and the rest could easily be assumed without being stated outright.

I don’t see what the contradiction is. Poe said it was a suicide mission…and it would have been. Says nothing about whether Finn could have accomplished the mission. That it could have been the like the Dreadnaught victory is what made Poe’s arc complete.

Whether Finn could have taken out the ram is not the point. Poe called off the mission because it wasn’t worth it, either way. That’s the point.

The back-and-forth concerned whether Finn could have made it. The point you’ve moved onto is a different point, one that basically negates your previous insistence that Finn wasn’t going to make it. I think you’re wrong on the previous point and right on this one.

I’m not sure I understand how that negates the previous point, or how I’ve even moved on from it. They are related points.

Whether Finn would have made it is a part of the larger conversation of “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?” But what’s actually important is that Poe determined it wasn’t worth it. From there the assumptions fall into place - to me, it looked like Finn wasn’t going to make it and even if he did, it wouldn’t have done anything. On the other side, even if Finn did make it and he did blow up the ram, then it still wouldn’t have been worth it because the First Order would just break in another way.

Whichever is actually the case doesn’t change the answers to “is Poe a coward?” and “did Rose doom the Resistance?”, the answer to both of which is of course no.

The relation between the two points can be explored. The previous dialogue did not concern Poe’s arc. You’ve injected that into it now, which is totally fine, but it’s helpful when we can be clear to avoid misunderstandings.

So let’s consider the relation between (1) Finn flying into the weapon and (2) Poe calling off the mission.

If Finn flew into the weapon, that doesn’t negate Poe’s arc. It arguably makes it stronger, with Poe not only calling off the mission but feeling the sting of loss when a commander is disobeyed. If Finn is successful, then all the better when Poe says it wasn’t worth it.

Or we can imagine that it is Poe who rams Finn. Poe acknowledges that Finn could have made it but “that’s how we’re gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love.” Followed, of course, by a kiss.

I never said Finn flying into the weapon would negate Poe’s arc. But the two things are connected. Poe understands suicide missions aren’t worth it. Finn doesn’t yet. Rose saving Finn is teaching him that lesson (“that’s how we’re gonna win…”).

I guess I’m not even sure what you’re trying to say.

The discussion was whether Finn could and should have destroyed the weapon. Then you backed into an argument on Poe’s arc. I said that I didn’t see any contradiction with what others were saying on the topic of Finn’s attempted sacrifice.

I said that your previous insistence that Finn was destined to fail was negated. Because Poe completed his arc no matter what Finn did.

Now you add another layer, seeming to suggest that there is a thematic parallel, and not that the two scenes are somehow dependent on each other, which is what I thought you were saying. Which is a pretty good argument; but you backed into it.

And I think my suggestions offer good alternative themes and lessons.

Back to the original discussion, Finn could totally have destroyed the battering ram, giving the rebels a chance to escape.

I still feel like we’re on different pages here.

I don’t see how you can talk about Finn destroying the ram or not without talking about Poe and his arc. When Poe calls off the attack, it’s because he’s wiser now and doesn’t think it’s worth it. From there you can assume that either means a) crashing into the ram won’t destroy it, or b) even if the ram is destroyed it’s not worth the loss of the rest of the skimmer pilots.

You offer alternative ways the scene could have gone, but that’s a different discussion entirely (to which I would argue different things, like this is the second movie in the trilogy and Finn has more to grow beyond sacrificing himself for a cause, and that it makes more sense narratively to have Rose save him than Poe).

You said, “When Finn gets into kamikaze mode, we see the ram start to tear his skimmer apart. It’s clear he won’t even make it, let alone blow the whole thing up.”

It’s not at all clear. We are supposed to believe it is possible. That’s what makes it heroic. I think Finn should already have disintegrated given what the laser was doing to the door. But the movie had other ideas and allowed him to get closer and closer with little damage. Also, Finn seems to have a good handle on Imperial weaponry and technology. So it was at least possible - whatever thoughts Poe was having. And it was the idea that Finn could have destroyed it that made Rose’s action meaningful too. Otherwise she would have just been stopping him from being foolish, not because love.

Yeah, I did say that, and that’s how it looks to me (at least that’s how it looked when I saw it yesterday), but I get it’s maybe not “clear” (bad word choice) and open to interpretation. The thought that he might not even make didn’t even occur to me until this past viewing, because on my other viewings I didn’t even need that interpretation. Whether he makes it or not is not what matters in that scene, it’s completely beside the point. I keep saying it, and honestly if I have to say it again I think I’ll bow out of this discussion because we’re really going in circles now, but even if Finn destroyed the ram the point is that his sacrifice wouldn’t be worth it.

For reference, here’s my thoughts on the matter from a few weeks ago:

DominicCobb said:

darthrush said:

DominicCobb said:

To me it seemed like Finn was either going to get hit before he made it, or crashing into the weapon wasn’t going to accomplish much. Basically, it seemed like he was making a sacrifice for the sake of it.

I think they made it clear that it was between him destroying the weapon and himself, or saving himself and the weapon. Rose clearly says that basically with the line of “more important to save those who we love, than defeat those who we hate”

Yeah but that line is the whole point. Attacking the weapon is a fruitless maneuver designed to hurt them (like with the Dreadnaught at the start of the film). The Resistance was in a dire situation there even if the weapon was blown. The more important thing to do was to go back to the base and figure out most importantly how to save everyone they could, however they could.

Finn thinks it is possible and that he’s being a hero. But this movie is all about what defines heroism is not these kind of big grand statements, at least not like this (you have to be careful when you make your sacrifices, not jumping at the first opportunity you get once you’ve pledged yourself officially to the cause. Rose didn’t stop him from being “foolish,” she saved him from dying.

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Gaffer Tape said:

As someone who really does like this film, this confuses me too. What was their plan, initially? As has been said, they never fire guns at the thing, assuming they even have guns, so was it always a suicide plan? How else could they have possibly taken it down? But if so, what changes in Poe between launching that mission and abandoning that mission? All of his character beats happen before the mission even starts. The lesson of the day isn’t that sacrificing yourself is bad. Because, you know, he learned his lesson from Holdo, who sacrificed herself. The idea, as I understand it, is supposed to be to understand that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. That it’s foolish to do pointlessly heroic things for pointlessly heroic deaths. That’s the contrast between Poe’s Dreadnaught attack and Holdo’s sacrifice. Poe causes a huge part of their fighters to get killed for a glorious victory when they could have simply turned tail and lived to fight another day. Holdo killed herself solely so that her comrades in arms could live to fight another day.

However, what Finn was about to do feels much more in line with the latter example than the former example. Finn was going to sacrifice himself, not for glory, but so that his friends might live. This is exactly what Holdo did. So I just don’t get why Rose and particularly Poe are against it, especially since I don’t understand what Poe’s plan was in the first place.

Their initial plan was to destroy the ram. It’s not stated explicitly, but the skimmers do have guns, so the assumption is they’ll use those. Yes, we don’t see them fire the guns, but that’s because they need to get close enough first. However, once they get closer, the ram starts charging up, which (as we see on Finn’s skimmers) destroys the guns. Thus, the only way to stop the ram would be to use the skimmer itself as a weapon. It is decided that is not an acceptable plan.

The situation is much more in line with the Dreadnaught assault. The Dreadnaught is about to fire on the main cruiser, but instead of running away, Poe has his fighters sacrifice themselves to destroy it. Trade out “Dreadnaught” with “battering ram,” and “main cruiser” for “shield door.” In the case of Holdo, the situation is completely different. The Resistance transports are already running away, but not unnoticed by the First Order (which was their plan). Holdo was only supposed to be leading the FO away (and the one loss when the cruiser was eventually destroyed, instead of many). When she decided to crash into the FO fleet, it was because she had no choice. If anything, the link between the Holdo scene and the Finn scene is that Finn was trying to copy her sacrifice when it wasn’t applicable.

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DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Collipso said:

That’s the point for Poe, that he can now see when a suicide mission is a suicide mission instead of just an opportunity for heroism. The point for Finn is he doesn’t care if it’s a suicide mission or not, as long as he saves the Resistance. The point for Finn isn’t affected by Rose saving him either, because the intention is what matters here.

But my interpretation of the scene is that, had Rose not saved Finn, he would’ve killed himself and succeeded in destroying the weapon and therefore saving everyone/buying them more than enough time. If this was the case, then Rose was very selfish by saving him.

The situation in the end works for every character except for Rose.

Rose is just following through on Poe’s assessment. You could just as easily give that moment to Poe, their intentions are the exact same (and it’s not a selfish act, Rose didn’t “stop him,” she “saved him, dummy”). The reason it’s given to Rose is because that’s her role in the film, the angel on Finn’s shoulder guiding him toward the good. She taught him to become a member of the Resistance, which he follows through on, but he still has more to learn. This is just her next lesson.

Again, it’s obvious the filmmakers’ wanted you to be on Rose’s side here. It’s not something that I thought was an issue when I saw the film, but if you misinterpreted that then I guess they needed to make the pointlessness of Finn’s potential sacrifice clearer.

Their intentions are not the same because Poe was trying to save the most amount of people by calling off the attack.

Rose decided that saving Finn was more important than the rest of the Resistance.

What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense.

Poe: call off the attack, save everyone in the skimmers, let the ram blow open the door
Rose: save Finn (the only skimmer not yet falling back), let the ram blow open the door

The intentions are exactly the same. Poe explicitly orders Finn to fall back. Rose just forces him to.

Rose spells it all out, what’s important in winning the war is saving people.

I can see your point, and it does make sense. But I think that the circumstances are different enough to make their intentions different.

Poe had a plan to try to save everyone. Then he saw that his plan would not only fail in doing so, but it would definitely get all those who were involved in it killed.

He called off the attack hoping that they could still find a way to destroy the weapon and live to fight another day, and in doing so, saving the most amount of lives he possibly could.

Finn then found a way, but it would cost him his life. However, since he’s now willing to give himself to the cause, that’s not a problem anymore. And when he was almost there, about to succeed and save everyone, Rose saved him, spelling certain death to all the rebels that Finn would’ve saved.

The thing is, Finn didn’t “find a way,” he was just following through on the original plan (only with certain death involved). Poe knew exactly what he was doing and told him to stop.

I don’t think that was the original plan, I think they were just desperate and decided to take action. Maybe they thought the guns were operational or something.

But I don’t think anyone would go for a kamikaze mission with only 30 rebels left. So because of this, I think Finn’s sacrifice was his idea and not the original plan, and that’s why I’m not a fan of Rose stopping him from ultimately fulfilling his arc. Argh if this was Episode IX it would’ve been perfect!

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I think it says something that basic plot points are unclear, like how were they going to destroy the gun. Get really close and shoot it is one possibility. But then I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it. (inb4: it was just like the Death Star trench)

The blue elephant in the room.

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Sougouk said:

Damn. I accidentally clicked the Post button, instead of the next page button.

I wonder what JJ Abrams is going to do for the 3rd movie. I hope we see more of R2D2 & Chewbacca.

Apparently JJ has said he wants to bring all three trilogies together. I hope that’s true, because even if X does come out I’m going to deny its existence and IX will be my last episode. Plus, I hope to see more prequels since we haven’t gotten more than a few references in a line or two in each movie so far

No offense, kid, but I don’t think you know how to boil water.

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yhwx said:

This is a good Twitter thread that basically reflects my opinions on Luke in TLJ that I’ve tried to express in this thread. Here’s some selected snippets:
https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/950408470846521344

From my perspective, given Luke’s inaction in TFA, this is the ONLY thing that could have been done with him. And why I’ve embraced the arc so much. I love it.

That just goes back to the problem of having Luke not involved in the story of TFA, or showing him at the end of the film.

The Jedi are all but extinct.......
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Sorry if I’m REALLY late to the party. I just now (finally) saw TLJ. (I’ve been sick since it came out, and only now felt spry enough to go to the theater).

Hmmm.
For some perspective, I REALLY liked both TFA and RO, a lot, and I thought they were both much better than the prequels.

But TLJ. Hmmm. I thought the first half of the movie was really terrible. It was rambling, depressing, gratuitous… basically a mess. I nearly lost it during the casino scene, and even moreso during the Yoda scene. Seriously even CPY was better. And that locksmith guy they picked? C’mon!! I found myself, while watching the film, trying to decide if it was as bad as the prequels, and pretty much thinking it might be. And I thought Kelly Marie Tran’s role was weak, really weak.

But it started getting decent during the Ren/Rey/Snoke showdown. (Although that did seem an awful lot like the RTJ showdown with the Emperor.) The “dark side” struggle that Rey was going through was way WAY better done than Anakin’s was in the prequels… I could have believed her turning to the dark side had it happened.

And then, I have to admit that the last half hour of the film was pretty amazing. Mark Hamill’s role in the climactic scene was really wonderful, much better than I had imagined it would be. It was truly some inspirational film-making, in my opinion.

So how could a movie have such extremes? From almost-walk-out-of-the-theater bad, to that-was-amazing good? This is one film that could benefit from a judicious fan edit. I saw TFA and RO each three times in the theater, but I doubt I’ll see this in the theater a second time. The thought of sitting through that first half is just not appealing.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Two things I loved about the prequel’s were General Grievous and all the extras George put on the DVD/Blu-Ray. I really think that was one of the great things about Lucas in that he loaded his stuff with extras. TFA Blu-Ray had pretty much nothing. I had to also buy the 3D version to get a few extras that wasn’t on the original Blu-Ray, but it still wasn’t worth the $30 to buy that movie again.

I really hope with TLJ that they bring back all the extras and things. I don’t like the prequels, but did enjoy all the extra stuff that was included on the prequel DVD/Blu-Ray’s.

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liamnotneeson said:

Sougouk said:

Damn. I accidentally clicked the Post button, instead of the next page button.

I wonder what JJ Abrams is going to do for the 3rd movie. I hope we see more of R2D2 & Chewbacca.

Apparently JJ has said he wants to bring all three trilogies together. I hope that’s true, because even if X does come out I’m going to deny its existence and IX will be my last episode. Plus, I hope to see more prequels since we haven’t gotten more than a few references in a line or two in each movie so far

I think JJ is going to retcon what Rian did. It seemed like Rian just threw everything JJ had setup.

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Ryan said:

liamnotneeson said:

Sougouk said:

Damn. I accidentally clicked the Post button, instead of the next page button.

I wonder what JJ Abrams is going to do for the 3rd movie. I hope we see more of R2D2 & Chewbacca.

Apparently JJ has said he wants to bring all three trilogies together. I hope that’s true, because even if X does come out I’m going to deny its existence and IX will be my last episode. Plus, I hope to see more prequels since we haven’t gotten more than a few references in a line or two in each movie so far

I think JJ is going to retcon what Rian did. It seemed like Rian just threw everything JJ had setup.

I doubt that. JJ has a TV background so I’m sure he’ll just continue the story to the end. I pray they already have an end because JJ can’t make one to save his life. This movie felt very much like it was leading to a resolution.

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Mrebo said:

I think it says something that basic plot points are unclear, like how were they going to destroy the gun. Get really close and shoot it is one possibility. But then I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it. (inb4: it was just like the Death Star trench)

I think it was an act of desperation and Poe didn’t see how futile it was until they were actually doing it. Finn doesn’t have Poe’s experience and we are then shown his craft disintegrating to show that Poe was right and Finn is about to toss his life away on aplan that won’t work. He isn’t even close and he is already in trouble. Rose, again, prevents him from making a stupid mistake. I never once thought he stood a chance but it was in character for Finn to try something like that. TFA had Rey to try to keep him in line and TLJ puts Rose in that role.

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yotsuya said:

Mrebo said:

I think it says something that basic plot points are unclear, like how were they going to destroy the gun. Get really close and shoot it is one possibility. But then I’m not sure how much sense that makes either: let’s fly out on barely functional crafts with limited maneuverability to a bunch of AT-ATs and a big gun and hope it doesn’t fire until we are really close so we can shoot at it. (inb4: it was just like the Death Star trench)

I think it was an act of desperation and Poe didn’t see how futile it was until they were actually doing it. Finn doesn’t have Poe’s experience and we are then shown his craft disintegrating to show that Poe was right and Finn is about to toss his life away on aplan that won’t work. He isn’t even close and he is already in trouble. Rose, again, prevents him from making a stupid mistake. I never once thought he stood a chance but it was in character for Finn to try something like that. TFA had Rey to try to keep him in line and TLJ puts Rose in that role.

I made the point in my first review I think, that this movie is really crammed full of stuff. It’s a dense film.

I enjoyed that aspect, as I was eager to rewatch it several times to suss out the details. But it also is a bad thing because it results in a lot of confusion about what is happening.

Their attack on the cannon was a last ditch effort to buy time till help could come. They didn’t expect to win. Finn might have been the only one who believed that they could destroy the cannon from the inside. I am a bit fuzzy on that right now.

They failed to buy time. Then Luke came and bought them even more time because he is awesome.

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It really seemed like Finn was more than able to destroy the cannon to me. He was still going relatively fast in the cannon’s direction, while all the others turned back, which it in itself is a plot hole (how did Rose even get to him?) and something I noticed upon first viewing.

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Collipso said:

It really seemed like Finn was more than able to destroy the cannon to me. He was still going relatively fast in the cannon’s direction, while all the others turned back, which it in itself is a plot hole (how did Rose even get to him?) and something I noticed upon first viewing.

If the beam is strong enough to crumple his guns, it’s probably strong enough to slow him down. That would increase the doubt that he was actually going to do any damage and increase the likelihood that Rose could catch him and stop him. But aside from that Finn also is not an expert pilot he had to be told how to operate this thing and he probably isn’t flying as fast as the little skied thing can go.