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The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 149

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It is still the same scene, recycled. They were fighting the advancing walkers from a trench, so on and so fourth.

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Frank your Majesty said:

DominicCobb said:

No, it is the premise of the OT in simply the vaguest of definitions.

Frank your Majesty said:

your problem is basically that there are AT-ATs in the movie.

No:

  • White planet that’s similar to Hoth
  • Rebel base is attacked
  • Rebels fight from trenches
  • Walkers assault

This is an AT-AT in a mostly original movie:

This is a rehash of the battle of Hoth with a twist:

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Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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Frank your Majesty said:

Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

Why have a ground assault at all? Why have another ground assault in the middle chapter of a trilogy? Why have one that evokes the battle of Hoth? Been there, done that. The planet is white. It’s Hoth visually with a twist.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

That’s the twist. It’s the hallmark of the ST. Rehash something from the OT, and refurbish it just enough that it can pass off as new.

ROTJ throne room sequence with a twist:

Imperial guards with a twist:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

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Honestly, I don’t see the problem with these superficial similarities. At least we get decent movies that look like Star Wars with great characters, something the prequels failed to do. I’m quite happy with that. Of course nothing new compares to your own headcanon that you cultivated over many years.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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My issues with the recycling of the ST are not exclusive to TLJ; it was a big issue for me with TFA as well. As much as I detest the prequels, I can say that at least the stories were original; they weren’t great by any means, but they were for the most part original.

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Frank your Majesty said:

Honestly, I don’t see the problem with these superficial similarities. At least we get decent movies that look like Star Wars with great characters, something the prequels failed to do. I’m quite happy with that. Of course nothing new compares to your own headcanon that you cultivated over many years.

It’s not new, that’s the problem. The prequels told it’s own story, badly. It had many original concepts, that were executed badly. The ST feels like an alternate reality version of the OT. It’s the same meat with different gravy. The execution is better than the prequels sure, but isn’t it just possible to come up with something original?

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one69chev said:

My issues with the recycling of the ST are not exclusive to TLJ; it was a big issue for me with TFA as well. As much as I detest the prequels, I can say that at least the stories were original; they weren’t great by any means, but they were for the most part original.

It’s such an odd feeling to have a renewed appreciation for what Lucas attempted to do, even if he failed in the end.

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The characters in the ST and their arcs are original, that’s good enough for me.

Ceci n’est pas une signature.

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Frank your Majesty said:

The characters in the ST and their arcs are original, that’s good enough for me.

Yes, they are and, IMHO they are the best part of the ST thus far.

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I’m glad to see the good old ra-ra-rehash argument is back, the circle is complete.

Frank your Majesty said:

The characters in the ST and their arcs are original, that’s good enough for me.

That and they are entertaining and well made. Almost like a real movie.

The prequels themselves were only original if you ignore all the stuff stolen from other movies, and then all the recycled things that make up that “ring theory” garbage.

Yub Nub for life

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SilverWook said:

Because either Rey’s parents were on that departing ship or they’re dead and buried on Jakku. It can’t be both.
And Kylo can’t be trusted.

It can be both. The ship we see leaving doesn’t get high enough to be in orbit or leave the planet. It may not even be a spaceship or spaceworthy. They could have gone to another Outpost, crashed, left planet and returned later, of several other scenarios that align what we saw in Rey’s vision with what Kylo said. Also, due to the dark side there is no guarantee that what Kylo said is accurate, though all the other dark side users typically say the truth, but in ways that slant things there way so I wouldn’t count on what he said being false, just misleading.

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Where I’m at with it is this:

Do you want to like the film? Yes or No?

Constantly picking it apart for why it’s stupid, unoriginal, inferior, or whatever else doesn’t enhance the viewing experience. It doesn’t increase my liking for it nor the franchise. I would rather find reasons to enjoy it, and focus on them; and if I don’t enjoy it, I’d rather just move along as though these aren’t the droids I’m looking for and find something else to enjoy instead.

Sure, there are criticisms to be made, but once the horse is dead there is no reason to keep beating it.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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chyron8472 said:

Where I’m at with it is this:

Do you want to like the film? Yes or No?

Constantly picking it apart for why it’s stupid, unoriginal, inferior, or whatever else doesn’t enhance the viewing experience. It doesn’t increase my liking for it nor the franchise. I would rather find reasons to enjoy it, and focus on them; and if I don’t enjoy it, I’d rather just move along as though these aren’t the droids I’m looking for and find something else to enjoy instead.

Sure, there are criticisms to be made, but once the horse is dead there is no reason to keep beating it.

Talking for myself, I just like discussing Star Wars the good and the bad. I don’t feel like having to find reasons to enjoy it, or not to enjoy it. You either like it, or you don’t, or you’re on the fence.

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First, what is the basis for Star Wars? While Lucas used Campbell’s mythical hero’s journey to craft the characters and a lot of the story, Star Wars is really based off of Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers, Foundation, Dune, and a host of others, not to mention some solid, real world history. But even if you go back to the classic myths, what is one thing that holds true for each and every inspriation? Victories don’t last. Flash fought Ming over and over again. Buck Rogers had a new foe with every adventure. The Foundation faced a critical crisis generation after generation. Dune had crisis after crisis, often costing characters their lies. And in mythology, every victory lasted until it was time to tell another story. How many victories did Hercules have? What was always going to be true of a sequel - things were going to fall apart.

So, what is the setup we have now? Things fell apart. The Republic never got strong (a very realistic approach - far more so than the EU New Republic), a powerful foe rose up on the Rim and is poised to seize power. Revolutionary governments do not last. Why did the US last? Because we cut off the head and left the structure in place. The first revolution in France and Russia didn’t last because it didn’t have anything to fill the power vacuum. So it is very realistic that the Republic created by the allies of our heroes has failed. And note, that they failed to heed Leia who was already leading a resistance to the First Order. Luke had a huge failure that drove him to find the first Jedi temple and to hide there when it didn’t give him any answers. Han lost the Falcon, but ended up with a bigger ship. Virtually all of the failures are no on our old hero’s heads, but on others. The Republic fails because they don’t listen to Leia. Ben falls because he is listening to Snoke, not Luke. Our heroes have not failed so much as been ignored by the next generation. When they should be retiring, they have to go back at it and lead a new fight. But along comes a new set of heroes to pick up the reigns and learn from the great heroes of the past. Classic mythological story telling.

And the story so far has taken place over weeks. The New Republic capitol was destroyed, the First Order is poised to take over, but they have not done so. They have to take over each planet, each system. They have to put a structure in place. Leia’s allies didn’t respond to her call because the are preparing to defend themselves from the First Order. But Luke showed up just when Leia needed him in just the way she needed him - larger than life, legendary, the great Jedi and hero. Luke’s last stand spread like wildfire with even a stable boy (there is nothing ever indicating he is a slave) and his friends on a far off planet hear about what Luke did. Luke again restored hope in a way he never did in the OT. His epic battle with the Emperor and Vader was private. No witnesses. What Luke did in TLJ is epic and witnessed by many on both sides. I wouldn’t be surprised if Leia set the base to film and broadcast it before they exited.

Many comments here have taken the First Order superiority so far to be that they are in charge. There is no evidence of that. Not enough time has passed. The remains of Starkiller Base are not even cool yet. We have not heard of a single system that they have conquered and subjuated. The victory over the Empire has not been lost just yet, only the government that refused to prepare for the fight Leia could see coming. Only the Hosnian system and Takodana have been lost to the First Order, not the entire Galaxy. And after what Luke did and how it spread (the real purpose of that scene at the end), the legacy of the OT is intact. What they fought so hard for has not been lost yet, only endangered. Kylo Ren and General Hux still have to conquer something or all they have done is destroy the capitol.

This whole crapping on the OT nonsense is based on things that just aren’t in TFA and TLJ. Luke had a bad spell, but he came out of it. That is a very mythological thing to do. An old hero now fills the mentor role and is reluctant to get involved again due to some past tragedy. They ST is just following on with the same sources that inspired GL back in 74 to start this journey. And I think he is likely the source for the core story here. I think they threw out his characters and created some new ones that are more in tune with modern audiences like Luke, Han, and Leia were in tune with the 70’s and 80’s. I think that is one mistake of the PT, GL greated heroes that were in tune with some other period besides the 90’s and millennium. To me they feel more like the heroes of 50’s epics like Ben Hur.

So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory. Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi. What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get. The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

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DrDre said:

chyron8472 said:

Where I’m at with it is this:

Do you want to like the film? Yes or No?

Constantly picking it apart for why it’s stupid, unoriginal, inferior, or whatever else doesn’t enhance the viewing experience. It doesn’t increase my liking for it nor the franchise. I would rather find reasons to enjoy it, and focus on them; and if I don’t enjoy it, I’d rather just move along as though these aren’t the droids I’m looking for and find something else to enjoy instead.

Sure, there are criticisms to be made, but once the horse is dead there is no reason to keep beating it.

Talking for myself, I just like discussing Star Wars the good and the bad. I don’t feel like having to find reasons to enjoy it, or not to enjoy it. You either like it, or you don’t, or you’re on the fence.

I have very much enjoyed this thread. It has made me think a great deal. The complaints have made me dig into the movie and pick it apart. I don’t expect my comments will meet with complete agreement, only make other people think. I think I know Star Wars better for all the various opinions. I think that every film has to be taken on its own merit, but when part of a series, things need to fit. I think I like TFA more after TLJ because I see the potential. After this conversation, I see even more potential. I hope I am right that they have a plan for this trilogy (not so much all the beats of the story, but where it is headed). But I also fear where Abrams will take it. He would be my last choice to finish this trilogy. I wish he had a script he was working off of. There was a script (or at least treatment) for IX. I hope they stick with the ending, even after rewriting it after Carrie’s passing.

Though a thought just occurred to me. Abrams does have a TV background so he may take up what RJ did and carry it forward. We may yet see the answers he intended to a couple of questions, but I don’t think those questions are important to the saga. I don’t think they ever were. More likely to be important to the characters.

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yotsuya said:
So I think everyone who feels that TLJ is crapping on the OT is missing things and assuming things that any diehard Star Wars fan should be picking up on. Do you have to like it? No. But you need to see what the story is, and where it has been, and the origins of all of it before you come down on this movie like this. Sure it didn’t go where you expected. What is wrong with that. Sure it derailed the victory that the OT led to, but pay attention to the story. Not enough time has passed for that victory to be destroyed. They are building it up to create an even stronger victory.

I don’t agree. Even at the Rebellion’s lowest point in TESB, there was a fleet, personel and, infrastructure. The ST has reduced the New Republic to a single ship, and the legend of Luke Skywalker, who faced down the FO alone. Not a single achievement of the classic characters was left standing.

Luke may not have had success at rebuilding the Jedi, but he has passed on some important lessons to Rey. He passed on his failure so she can learn from it and the ancient texts of the Jedi.

Which is the only thing he’s passed on. Yoda passed on a whole lot more to Luke in the OT.

What the OT ended with was, in truth, uncertainty. It ended with the potential and intent to rebuild the Republic. But the government that resulted was weak. After the First Order are defeated, the galaxy will clamor for a strong Republic, like what we hoped they’d get.

Yeah, like the people in the final scene of ROTJ SE hoped for, but didn’t get. ROTJ ended with Luke causing the destruction of the Emperor and his right hand man, a significant part of the Imperial fleet, and the Death Star. I’m sure that’s quite a bit more inspiring than Luke facing down the FO. If that doesn’t result in a clamor for democracy (one we’ve actually witnessed and after two decades of terror), I don’t know what will. Snoke was pulled out of thin air, and disappeared into thin air. Who knows how many Snokes are waiting in some unknown region of the galaxy. The ST has severely deflated the concept of victory not only for the OT, but for victories in the Star Wars universe as a whole. It has made any future victory, including the one we’re bound to get at the end of ep. IX, meaningless.

The ST won’t tear down what the OT left us with, but it has to throw a wrench in the works to shake things up so what we end up with is stronger than before. The ST heroes are there to finish what the OT heroes started.

Until someone decides to throw in another wrench, and so the endless cycle of reboots continues…

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DrDre said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

Why have a ground assault at all? Why have another ground assault in the middle chapter of a trilogy? Why have one that evokes the battle of Hoth? Been there, done that. The planet is white. It’s Hoth visually with a twist.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

That’s the twist. It’s the hallmark of the ST. Rehash something from the OT, and refurbish it just enough that it can pass off as new.

ROTJ throne room sequence with a twist:

Imperial guards with a twist:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Sorry Dre. Can’t really agree with you on this one. Films use visuals from other films as their inspiration all the time. If you work hard enough at it, you can call “rehash!” in most films.

Also, by your logic wouldn’t Lando Calrissian be a Han Solo rehash with a twist?

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TV’s Frink said:

DrDre said:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Lol.

Dre post with a (giant) stretch.

This is not Lando by any means. At least Han knew who Lando was, and Lando was to some degree trying to play it straight. Yes, he betrayed Han and Leia, but from his own perspective he had no choice.

DJ, by contrast, is a nobody. No one knows who he is or what his deal is beyond a possible use which they might have for keeping him around. They have no choice but to bring him along because they’re otherwise backed into a corner. Whereas Han deliberately chose to visit Lando because Lando was his friend.

TV’s Frink said:

chyron just put a big Ric pic in your sig and be done with it.

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This thread is sanity with a twist.

Or maybe it is something that rhymes with twist.

Isn’t it supposed to rhyme, George?

Maybe the rhymes don’t work because the author is new?

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pleasehello said:

DrDre said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Well, how else would a ground assault look like? Walkers have been established as an effective force, if they came up with somehting new, people would ask “where are the walkers?”. Also, trenches are a very common defense against ground attacks and if there wasn’t a rebel base, what else would be the target of a ground attack? And the planet is nothing like Hoth.

Why have a ground assault at all? Why have another ground assault in the middle chapter of a trilogy? Why have one that evokes the battle of Hoth? Been there, done that. The planet is white. It’s Hoth visually with a twist.

I also must have missed the scene in Empire, where the Empire blasts a huge door away, or the TIE fighters joinging the ground attack or where Han flies directly at the enemy force to sacrifize himself, or Luke facing Vader to buy his friends some time.

That’s the twist. It’s the hallmark of the ST. Rehash something from the OT, and refurbish it just enough that it can pass off as new.

ROTJ throne room sequence with a twist:

Imperial guards with a twist:

Lando Calrissian with a twist:

Sorry Dre. Can’t really agree with you on this one. Films use visuals from other films as their inspiration all the time. If you work hard enough at it, you can call “rehash!” in most films.

Yes, but in this case the ST is inspired by the OT a lot, in terms if visuals, and the story threads. Like I said, the vast majority of story threads are in some way a variation on an OT story thread.

Also, by your logic wouldn’t Lando Calrissian be a Han Solo rehash with a twist?

No, Han Solo never betrayed his comrades by selling them out to the bad guys. Let’s not forget this is another story thread taken directly from the middle chapter of the previous trilogy used in the middle chapter of this one.