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This thread is endlessly frustrating and I always hate myself for posting in it again. Back to lurking I go.
The blue elephant in the room.
The Last Jedi: Official Review and Opinions Thread ** SPOILERS ** — Page 100
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“There has been an awakening.”
Why does it have to come from her parents?
It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue.
Like - Why is Rey so powerful? ‘cause she is’
‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying, particularly in a universe as dense with information as SW
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[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?
Because that’s how the Force works.
George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977
I don’t care if it’s not in the film.
and established it in his films.
How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?
Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade, have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.
You guys are just so inflexible when it comes to the ST.
Sure, maybe Jedi should be able to fly in the next installment, or use the Force to travel through time. Is it too much to ask for a director to respect the rules of a universe he did not create?
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“There has been an awakening.”
Why does it have to come from her parents?
It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.
Agreed. Setup and payoff. We have the setup, but no payoff.
Kind of like in ESB where Han is frozen?
There’s still another movie to go.
No, not like that. I’m not talking about unresolved plot threads, I’m talking about how the Last Jedi takes things that were set up in TFA and resolves them in a way by saying it doesn’t matter. The twist is there is no twist. Snoke’s role makes no sense and is unsatisfying, Rey’s force vision makes no sense and is unsatisfying (I like that she’s random but I don’t like its execution), and so on.
The Last Jedi doesn’t even really leave much to look forward to. Everything that was set up to be important in TFA is resolved here, and leaves nothing but Kylo Ren either being killed off or redeemed or both for the finale.
I left this film feeling very conflicted about it, there is some great stuff and some not so great stuff, but as time goes on I find less and less to like about it.
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“There has been an awakening.”
Why does it have to come from her parents?
It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.
Agreed. Setup and payoff. We have the setup, but no payoff.
Kind of like in ESB where Han is frozen?
There’s still another movie to go.
Yes, but I am not sure how you back out of some of the game-changing stuff and make it right…
Maybe we find out that Kylo was lying about Rey’s parents.
Maybe we find out that they never found the real Luke Skywalker and he was projection of Snoke
Maybe we find out that Rey was being possessed by Yoda’s ghost and that is why she needed training not.
I just don’t think there is any way the next movie can walk back some of this stuff except maybe Rey’s parents.
One thing I do know is there is a much better TLJ out there in an edit bay.
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[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?
Because that’s how the Force works.
George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977
I don’t care if it’s not in the film.
and established it in his films.
How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?
Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.
Last thing I’m saying for a while…
We saw one person trying to learn in the OT, Luke, which is my whole point. There is zero evidence in the OT that everyone has to learn how to use the Force the same way.
And I don’t give a shit about anything the PT says. And we never saw any trials, so by your own logic where we never saw it so it didn’t happen, the trials mean nothing. Even if you include the PT, all we actually saw was a bunch of kids playing with lightsabers and the Jedi acting like absolute morons.
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[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?
Because that’s how the Force works.
George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977
I don’t care if it’s not in the film.
and established it in his films.
How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?
Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.
Last thing I’m saying for a while…
We saw one person trying to learn in the OT, Luke. And I don’t give a shit about anything the PT says. And we never saw any trials, so by your own logic where we never saw it so it didn’t happen, the trials mean nothing anyway. Even if you include the PT, all we saw was a bunch of kids playing with lightsabers.
Yeah sure, it’s just Luke who needs training on Dagobah. He’s just a slow learner, I guess. When he said the Force is strong in his family, he was just talking out of his ***, since any random person can do what he did in a matter of days. There’s no PT, TCW, EU, and fourty years of Star Wars history. We should just ignore all that, because RJ really understands Star Wars. Jump on the bandwagon! It’s no biggie. You just have to reject all previously established canon, but that all sucked anyway. Kill the past, y’all! Well, that’s not my Star Wars, but I guess that’s no surprise to anyone…
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He probably could have beat a very injured Kylo. xP
Without any training? I doubt it.
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[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?
Because that’s how the Force works.
George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977
I don’t care if it’s not in the film.
and established it in his films.
How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?
You guys are just so inflexible when it comes to the ST.
There is a reason why the jedi academy in the PT existed. There is a reason why Luke needed training. There is a reason for the whole Padawan thing. You don’t just become a Jedi without training.
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“There has been an awakening.”
Why does it have to come from her parents?
It is kind of lame storytelling to just have things ‘appear’ out of the blue. - Why is Rey so powerful ‘cause she is’ is not very satisfying.
Agreed. Setup and payoff. We have the setup, but no payoff.
Kind of like in ESB where Han is frozen?
There’s still another movie to go.
No, not like that. I’m not talking about unresolved plot threads, I’m talking about how the Last Jedi takes things that were set up in TFA and resolves them in a way by saying it doesn’t matter. The twist is there is no twist. Snoke’s role makes no sense and is unsatisfying, Rey’s force vision makes no sense and is unsatisfying (I like that she’s random but I don’t like its execution), and so on.
The Last Jedi doesn’t even really leave much to look forward to. Everything that was set up to be important in TFA is resolved here, and leaves nothing but Kylo Ren either being killed off or redeemed or both for the finale.
I left this film feeling very conflicted about it, there is some great stuff and some not so great stuff, but as time goes on I find less and less to like about it.
I agree with all you’re saying here.
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[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?
Because that’s how the Force works.
George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977
I don’t care if it’s not in the film.
and established it in his films.
How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?
Come on? Did you even watch the first six episodes? There’s Luke training with Obi-Wan, and Yoda, Luke struggling to lift the rocks, and the x-wing, Luke being completely humiliated by Darth Vader. Then there’s the Jedi Temple, where we see young kids trained from a young age, where young Padawans under the tutelage of a Master, who’ve been training for over decade have to take trials to become Jedi Knights.
Last thing I’m saying for a while…
We saw one person trying to learn in the OT, Luke, which is my whole point. There is zero evidence in the OT that everyone has to learn how to use the Force the same way.
And I don’t give a shit about anything the PT says. And we never saw any trials, so by your own logic where we never saw it so it didn’t happen, the trials mean nothing. Even if you include the PT, all we actually saw was a bunch of kids playing with lightsabers and the Jedi acting like absolute morons.
Frink, no matter how much we hate the PT, it is still official cannon. Though we did not see any Jedi trials, didn’t Obiwan refer to being read for them?
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Ah I remembered correctly.
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@Frink
I’m absolutely fine with you or anyone else liking TLJ. I respect that, but what I don’t understand, is why it’s so difficult to return that courtesy. We raise what we feel are legitimate criticisms against TLJ. Why? Because we love Star Wars and it’s history (some parts more than other parts, but anyway), and care about how future writers and directors will handle previously established canon. So, rather than just admitting TLJ ignores some of what had been established before, and say you’re fine with it, or write a counter argument to show, that our interpretation is flawed, you state the fault is with us critics. We disagree with you, and so there’s something wrong with us. We’re so inflexible.
Anyway, I suspect it’s out of frustration with the seemingly never ending list of complaints against the film in this thread, so I sympathise to a degree. I was planning to stay out of the discussion for a while, but then there’s allways some argument, that pulls you back in. C’est la vie…no offense meant.
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Some interesting things are being said about the nature of the Force. I found an old thread discussing the Force that echoes some of what’s being said. Is there a policy against reviving old threads? There’s also a contributor whose name I’ve not heard in a long time, a long time.
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Mrebo said:
There’s also a contributor whose name I’ve not heard in a long time, a long time.
who?
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@Frink
I’m absolutely fine with you or anyone else liking TLJ. I respect that, but what I don’t understand, is why it’s so difficult to return that courtesy.
This I agree with.
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Well since I can find no rule against it, I will bring back the old thread where TheBoost had some good thoughts.
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Inconsistent-use-of-the-force/id/9937/page/1
The blue elephant in the room.
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nhoj3 said:
To be completely honest with you, if someone had polled me on the way out of the theatre I would have scored it favourably as well. There was too much to process to really score it accurately.
I WAS polled on my way out of the theater, and I gave it a rating of “good” (or 3 out of 5). As I was processing what I had just seen on the way home, I started to wish I’d given it a 1 or 2 rating (“poor” or “fair”).
It reminded me of the way I felt about ROTS when I first saw it. When I walked out of the theater, I was kind of stunned and I thought, “well, that was kind of OK, it wasn’t as bad as AOTC.” A few hours later, I thought “nah. That was complete crap, too” and I’ve never seen ROTS again. 😛
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I just registered so…hi all 😃
Just wanted to jump in to this discussion as I have been following the shitstorm this film has created. I really liked it. I felt like I did when I first watched the OT to a large degree. It has stayed with me for the last week and I’m quite excited about how JJ is going to finish it.
I liked the fact it didn’t follow a well worn path and surprised me. I liked the action and touching moments. I really liked that they made Luke more human and allowed him to redeem himself.
Cheers and kind regards.
Welcome! I liked those things as well.
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Well since I can find no rule against it, I will bring back the old thread where TheBoost had some good thoughts.
http://originaltrilogy.com/topic/Inconsistent-use-of-the-force/id/9937/page/1
The mods only get annoyed at pointless necro-bumps. This is not the case here. : )
Where were you in '77?
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[cue several (more) pages of complaints about Rey still being a Mary Sue]
Don’t you think that final scene where she lifts all the rocks undermines the one in TESB, where Luke struggles so much to do the same thing?
Nope. Why does she have to have the same training Luke had?
Because that’s how the Force works.
George Lucas created this universe, and he decided it takes many years of studying to learn how to control the Force. He’s put this into writing as early as 1977
I don’t care if it’s not in the film.
and established it in his films.
How so? And who’s to say the Force is fully understood anyway?
You guys are just so inflexible when it comes to the ST.
There is a reason why the jedi academy in the PT existed. There is a reason why Luke needed training. There is a reason for the whole Padawan thing. You don’t just become a Jedi without training.
Not anymore. Now you have your fast food Jedi. One lesson and you are a Master now.
At least it will be easy to build a Jedi Army. Just grab that kid with the broom and a few thousand of his buddies and give them the “Jedi Talk” and boom you are done!
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So, a couple of things about Rey. One, TLJ just continues the way her character started in TFA. If you watch both closely, you will find that everything she does she picks up from Kylo Ren. Everything she does, he does around her first. And as for her raw power, we got a very good answer for that from Snoke. When Kylo brought Rey before him he said that he’d told Kylo that as he grew stronger his opposite in the light would rise, but Snoke thought it would be Skywalker. So we have a third generation Skywalker who has turned to darkness and to balance that out, his equal in the light has appeared. That is the answer to why things seem to come so easy for her. But while the force seems to come easy for her, she needs a mentor to guide her. Han is dead. Luke refused. Her parents were drunks and are dead. Rey is completely different from Luke. Unlike him who was pretty whiny to start out with, she doesn’t complain much and her life on Jakku taught her the disciple that Yoda tried to teach Luke. But when you look at the duration of Luke’s training, he was with Ben for a few hours in hyperspace. Three years later he could pull a light saber to him and hit targets with incredible accuracy. After he trains with Yoda, we do not have proof that he can lift an X-wing yet, but he flies off with his training incomplete to helps his friends and gets his hand cut off. A year later, with no additional training, he frees Han, turns himself over to the Empire, faces Vader, taps into the raw power of the force (seemingly the dark side from how he was goaded into an emotional response by Vader) and defeats Vader - with no additional formal training than he had the last time they faced.
So, no, the Star Wars universe does not demand formal training to use the force. Anakin could pod-race at 9 using skills normally found in trained Jedi. It was raw talent. Luke always doubted and he had trouble learning. Rey had the discipline of a hard life and the guidance of Kylo Ren (remember that nice lesson he gave her during their lightsaber duel on Starkiller Base?). So TLJ is not doing anything different with Rey than Abrams did. Her journey remains the same. Huge raw power and no guidance and she is on a quest for guidance. And the explanation for her power was provided. And her parentage is not very different from Anakin’s. His mother was a slave and his father a mystery (or the force itself). Rey was sold by her parents for drinking money and they died in the Jakku desert. She is the force’s answer to Kylo Ren. The question is what is their purpose, she and Kylo. Their stories are entwined and both have a struggle, just not with the force.
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Where was it said Rey’s parents were drunks?
Where were you in '77?
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Kylo tells her in the red room.
You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)
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Gaffer Tape said:
When he tossed the lightsaber over his shoulder, it was shocking but at the same time, exactly what I figured was going to happen.
Yes, it’s such a shame that both times I have seen the film, the audience laughed.
I want to see the film just by myself now with no unnecessary audience participation.