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The Kenobi Movie Show (Spoilers) — Page 54

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MalaStrana#2 said:

yotsuya said:

the original film was saved by Lucas getting a lot of input.

It’s called a writing process and putting hard work… of course you don’t reach perfection by writing first drafts that aren’t challenged. Something Lucas himself forgot when he wrote the PT: the core story was there but none of the hard reshape work was put into them. The gap between ANH and TPM lies there. Since at least Lucas is a wonderful storyteller there still is something appealing to those stories though : this is why the gap is also wide between TPM and OWK, this later being the low point of the saga in term of script where nothing is earned and no stakes are developed (I can’t still believe that Reva took Leia to interrogate her while Vader was fighting Ben: wasn’t her point to lure Vader into a trap so why the fuck is she doing that except for lazy screenwriters to remake ANH in the next episode ?).

and for TESB he turned to a very skilled writer.

And yet they drastically changed the first version of the script. Putting lots of work to make a worthy sequel rooted from ANH abs going into new directions.

You seem to discover that you get something of quality through hard work…

Lucas used a different writing process for all the films he did. ANH was several rough drafts, input from friends (Spielberg, Coppola, DePalma, Marcia) and the final draft still was not there. In editing scenes were reworked, dialog changed in dubbing sessions, drama upped. So the script may be good, but it is far from how the final edit turned out. And actually we need to give credit to Lucas himself for excising the anchorhead scenes. He didn’t want to write them but his friends said he needed to introduce his hero sooner. He stuck with his plan of following the droids to tell the story.

Lucas gave his treatment to Leigh Bracket and she produced the first screen play. She died March 18, 1978, a month and a day after finishing the screenplay. So Lawrence Kasdan made the final edits. The Vader is Luke Father line is not in any version of the script so we have no idea at what point Lucas decided on that. If it was early he left it out to keep the story secret, but then the novelization came out 5 weeks before the movie and it was in there. But the other edits, which Bracket started on a typed copy of her screenplay, similarly refined the story from the earliest draft of ANH that resembled the final version (the earlier drafts varied in story content).

Return of the Jedi was just Lucas and Kasdan. Some consider it the least of the three films.

The Phantom Menace just as Lucas with the full credit. I think he spent more time on it because the story feels more polished.

Attack of the Clones has an additional name to the credits, but I consider it the worst written of Lucas’s 6 films.

Revenge of the Sith is back to just Lucas, but it doesn’t have the polish the the other films did. It feels rough and the editing somewhat helps. But due to the story it tells, many consider it the best of the PT. It is my second favorite after TPM.

So we can clearly see when Lucas puts in the time and gets the feedback or has quality help. But no matter help or not, each films went through multiple drafts with significant changes to parts of the story. He has sole credit on 3 of the films, story and screenplay credit on another, and story only on two. So it is a matter of how much assistance he got and from what source and whether or not he took it and whether or not it was a good suggestion.

The writing of a 6 part short TV series probably doesn’t follow the same methods. Just take some of the films that have also had mini-series adaptions. The one I think of is Pride and Prejudice. Colin Firth vs. Keira Knightly. The version Colin was in was a nearly word for word adaption of the book. Slow in places, but very accurate to the story. Keira’s version was a 2 hour film (so about 1/3 the time) and skips over a lot and tells the same story in a more condensed version. Each one is great, but some like one over the other. I prefer Colin’s because it is complete. But if you don’t have 6 hours, Keira’s covers the whole story sussinctly.

Kenobi is similar. I feel they used the longer format to expand the story and dig into the various things they wanted to cover. I’m sure a skilled fan edit can cut it down to 2 hours and have it tell the same story without the bits that slow it down. But saying it isn’t as well written because it goes slower ignores that part of that is the selected 6 part format. I didn’t have any problem with the pacing. I liked it, but as I said, I like the slower longer Colin Firth version of Pride and Prejudice. So no surprise there. Rather than saying it is badly done, I think it is more likely that it is just not to some tastes.

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I’ll say again that it’s my opinion that Obi Wan and Yoda are not telling Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor. The way it’s worded, Obi Wan is essentially saying that Luke has to be willing to kill his father, not that he has to. Luke is saying “I can’t” do it which is placing limits on himself about what he can do if the need arises. The words Yoda uses are “confront” and “conquer” which are not the same thing as “kill” and “assassinate.” Yoda tells Luke that he needs to confront Vader again in order to become a Jedi. What does that mean?

I think it’s closer to what they call the Jedi trials to become a Knight in the prequels. It’s some kind of spiritual test. Exactly like when Luke faced the vision of Vader in the cave in Dagobah in ESB. We see the progression: facing Vader in the cave and failing because he brought his fears and weapons, then again failing when confronting the real Vader in Cloud City for the same reasons and lack of preparation, and then finally in ROTJ he is actually ready, he’s made some peace within himself that Vader is his father and he has the proper training and attitude. But he has to face his fears again in order to pass the test and truly become a Jedi. Whether that means killing Vader or something else happening is unclear and dependent on how it plays out.

Moreover, what Luke does in the throne room is IRRELEVANT to the Battle of Endor. That’s made very clear. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” If all goes according to Luke’s plan they’re all going to get blown up anyway. The real battle is spiritual, it’s over Luke’s soul and Vader’s soul. If he did run in there and manage to somehow kill both of them, there’s still the whole battle left. Yoda and Obi Wan must have known that. If you say, oh well, Revenge of the Sith shows them trying to kill Palpatine and Vader and failing, I would say exactly! So they know that’s a nonstarter especially for someone who’s not even a full Jedi like Luke. They’re not sending him to die necessarily but they are sending him for a spiritual confrontation of some kind.

I think Return of the Jedi in general is really misunderstood and that all three original movies are equally good.

With that said, in the Obi Wan show there isn’t really a good reason for Obi Wan not to kill Vader other than just repeating the same pity that he had in ROTS.

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Vladius said:

I’ll say again that it’s my opinion that Obi Wan and Yoda are not telling Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor. The way it’s worded, Obi Wan is essentially saying that Luke has to be willing to kill his father, not that he has to. Luke is saying “I can’t” do it which is placing limits on himself about what he can do if the need arises. The words Yoda uses are “confront” and “conquer” which are not the same thing as “kill” and “assassinate.” Yoda tells Luke that he needs to confront Vader again in order to become a Jedi. What does that mean?

I think it’s closer to what they call the Jedi trials to become a Knight in the prequels. It’s some kind of spiritual test. Exactly like when Luke faced the vision of Vader in the cave in Dagobah in ESB. We see the progression: facing Vader in the cave and failing because he brought his fears and weapons, then again failing when confronting the real Vader in Cloud City for the same reasons and lack of preparation, and then finally in ROTJ he is actually ready, he’s made some peace within himself that Vader is his father and he has the proper training and attitude. But he has to face his fears again in order to pass the test and truly become a Jedi. Whether that means killing Vader or something else happening is unclear and dependent on how it plays out.

Moreover, what Luke does in the throne room is IRRELEVANT to the Battle of Endor. That’s made very clear. “Soon I’ll be dead, and you with me.” If all goes according to Luke’s plan they’re all going to get blown up anyway. The real battle is spiritual, it’s over Luke’s soul and Vader’s soul. If he did run in there and manage to somehow kill both of them, there’s still the whole battle left. Yoda and Obi Wan must have known that. If you say, oh well, Revenge of the Sith shows them trying to kill Palpatine and Vader and failing, I would say exactly! So they know that’s a nonstarter especially for someone who’s not even a full Jedi like Luke. They’re not sending him to die necessarily but they are sending him for a spiritual confrontation of some kind.

I think Return of the Jedi in general is really misunderstood and that all three original movies are equally good.

With that said, in the Obi Wan show there isn’t really a good reason for Obi Wan not to kill Vader other than just repeating the same pity that he had in ROTS.

Well said.

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 (Edited)

I was curious about Vlad’s interpretation of if Obi-Wan (and by extension Yoda) were wanting or expecting Luke to kill Vader, so I tried to see if I could find Lucas saying anything about it. I did manage to find this quote from Lucas in the Making of Return of the Jedi book.

“The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him. This is the state of affairs that Yoda should refer to.”

I think that lines up with what Vladius is saying.

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 (Edited)

But what’s with the obsession with not taking out a mass murderer who destroyed the Jedi order and brought death and oppression to the galaxy?

“I can’t kill my own father” -Luke

“Then the Emperor has already won…you were our last hope” -Obi-Wan

WHY is this bit of dialog confusing and causing stretched out theories of “interpretation”?

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 (Edited)

RogueLeader said:

I was curious about Vlad’s interpretation of if Obi-Wan (and by extension Yoda) were wanting or expecting Luke to kill Vader, so I tried to see if I could find Lucas saying anything about it. I did manage to find this quote from Lucas in the Making of Return of the Jedi book.

“The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him. This is the state of affairs that Yoda should refer to.”

I think that lines up with what Vladius is saying.

I don’t think that Luke’s mission in ROTJ was explicitly to kill Vader and Palpatine, only that Luke should be prepared to do so should the need arise. Luke himself points this out and Obi-wan confirms it.

ROTS on the other hand is explicitly an assassination mission for Yoda and Obi-wan, one which Obi-wan believes he has completed by the end of the film.

I think that is where the confusion comes in. Some people say that Jedi aren’t killers or assassins and point to one trilogy to confirm it, while others say that the Jedi can absolutely be assassins and point to another trilogy to confirm it. Kenobi falls directly between the two trilogies and so there’s no stable baseline for Jedi behavior to fall back on, and so people have to justify Obi-wan not completing the explicit orders of his master by saying that it’s not the Jedi way to kill a guy in a lightsaber duel who has forced you into a pit and who’s now standing there astonished by the power of your second wind.

Vader even retains his saber at the end of the fight, so the comparison to Maul is almost one to one.

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If this is all to make excuses for Ben not killing Vader in the Kenobi show…well it just seems like it’s getting ridiculous and over thinking what those writers couldn’t be bothered with…plus Obi-Wan has executed “lesser” villains and dark siders. It was Luke’s idea to try and be passive with his confrontation…that’s what makes Luke interesting, he knew a better path than Ben or Yoda would gamble with.

Why is this all being convoluted to make sense of a terribley written/cash grab tv show?

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 (Edited)

I guess that’s the thing I’m still struggling with. Even if that’s the case that Kenobi and Yoda aren’t telling Luke explicitly to kill Vader in RotJ, I still have a hard time believing that Obi-Wan wouldn’t still end Vader in this show. He KNOWS what Vader has done and is capable of, he can see how much he’s suffering and he has to know that it’s his fault for leaving him alive on Mustafar. Especially after internalizing that his friend is truly dead and consumed by Darth Vader, Obi-Wan has every reason to mercy kill him. They could have easily written it in a way where the two get separated in their duel and make it impossible to finish it so Obi-Wan flees back to Tatooine, but no he intentionally lets Vader live. It doesn’t work for me.

Obi-Wan would especially see Vader as his responsibility to finish. Letting him live makes him look extremely irresponsible and foolish, to a point that I feel os incongruent with his character.

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Exactly. Before the final episode I was imagining numerous scenarios where they would fight but get separated, or where one would think the other was dead, or even where both of them are knocked unconscious like in TLJ and Obi-wan is rescued by his friends before Vader wakes up…

Anything.

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A quick fix would be for Vader to intentionally turn off his breathing/chest lights for long enough to make Kenobi think he’s dead. He’s got enough oxygen in the suit to prevent brain damage, so why not? Obi-Wan doesn’t know about how the suit works to know it’s still functional.

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 (Edited)

Oh don’t get me wrong, I also feel like just having Obi-Wan walk away is a weird choice that I don’t agree with. Especially when Obi-Wan, earlier in the same episode, said, “It ends today.”

Just to have him walk away again, it basically puts us back at the end of ROTS, except Obi-Wan is less guilty now I guess.

And that alternative isn’t bad, but you still end up with Obi-Wan leaving Vader for dead, and not actually making sure he is dead.

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RogueLeader said:

Oh don’t get me wrong, I also feel like just having Obi-Wan walk away is a weird choice that I don’t agree with. Especially when Obi-Wan, earlier in the same episode, said, “It ends today.”

Just to have him walk away again, it basically puts us back at the end of ROTS, except Obi-Wan is less guilty now I guess.

And that alternative isn’t bad, but you still end up with Obi-Wan leaving Vader for dead, and not actually making sure he is dead.

I say it’s bad only because it makes Obi-Wan look immensely irresponsible for the sake of keeping the status quo (not that continuity errors seem to bother these writers anyway but killing Vader is a pretty big one). We know the circumstances around why he left Anakin in RotS and it’s much more understandable why he couldn’t bring himself to do it then. It wouldn’t have even seemed likely Anakin could have survived. Now we know that not only did he, but he’s been killing people, Jedi and otherwise, for a decade.

I wouldn’t have as much of a problem with it if it didn’t fundamentally damage Obi-Wan’s character. Worse, it makes everything Luke goes through in the OT feel even more pointless.

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They should’ve had the duel go in a similar fashion, but Vader wins and Obi-Wan retreats.

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ROTS is about Yoda and Kenobi losing and facing defeat and becoming outcast. We see that it has hit Kenobi hard. This series is about Kenobi finding himself again and once again becoming a legendary Jedi Knight. As Anakin said in ROTS when he had Dooku, killing is not the Jedi way. Kenobi isn’t out to kill Vader, just out to confront him and bring the chase to a close. He has already saved Leia. So he has no purpose there once he has stopped Vader. What is killing him going to do? There is still Palpatine. There are still the inquisitors. And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option. We know, having seen the OT, that the best option is for Vader to live for Luke to confront. This moment of mercy by Kenobi leads to the redemption of his friend 13 years later.

I think considering this a plot hole is really disingenuous to what we know of Kenobi and the OT.

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yotsuya said:
And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option.

You know, this would be great, fantastic stuff if the series bothered to show us any of that. If we got to see Kenobi try to bring Anakin back only to fail. This never actually happened, though. He beat him, said his friend was truly dead, and walked away. Hell, even Obi-Wan hearing the voice of Padme saying that would have indicated it enough but not even that is expressed. And considering this series is made for casual SW fans as well as diehards, something like that would have been warranted if they were trying to get that idea across.

There’s never an any actual moment that lines up with Vader saying Obi-Wan thought there was good in him. It wasn’t shown in RotS and it wasn’t shown here, despite you filling in the blanks for the writers who should have known better. If they had written it in a way that reflected what you wrote, it would have made more sense. But they didn’t, so unfortunately, all of this? Is you writing the script for them.

So what we’re left with is an Obi-Wan who seemed to have every intention to kill Vader, to the point of even landing a blow to his face, internalizing and vocally emphasizing that his friend is gone forever, DEAD, and then deciding to let him live anyway with zero indications of any potential thought to there being good in him still. Not even an attempt to convince him. The writing and directing do not reflect it, so there is zero reason to believe it.

JEDIT: And even then, I still think the confrontation should have ended with Vader escaping rather than Obi-Wan sparing him. It would have absolved Obi-Wan of the responsibility, even if he didn’t intend to kill him. Really, this whole show dropped the ball on that idea in general, tbh.

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Kaweebo said:

yotsuya said:
And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option.

You know, this would be great, fantastic stuff if the series bothered to show us any of that. If we got to see Kenobi try to bring Anakin back only to fail. This never actually happened, though. He beat him, said his friend was truly dead, and walked away. Hell, even Obi-Wan hearing the voice of Padme saying that would have indicated it enough but not even that is expressed. And considering this series is made for casual SW fans as well as diehards, something like that would have been warranted if they were trying to get that idea across.

There’s never an any actual moment that lines up with Vader saying Obi-Wan thought there was good in him. It wasn’t shown in RotS and it wasn’t shown here, despite you filling in the blanks for the writers who should have known better. If they had written it in a way that reflected what you wrote, it would have made more sense. But they didn’t, so unfortunately, all of this? Is you writing the script for them.

So what we’re left with is an Obi-Wan who seemed to have every intention to kill Vader, to the point of even landing a blow to his face, internalizing and vocally emphasizing that his friend is gone forever, DEAD, and then deciding to let him live anyway with zero indications of any potential thought to there being good in him still. Not even an attempt to convince him. The writing and directing do not reflect it, so there is zero reason to believe it.

JEDIT: And even then, I still think the confrontation should have ended with Vader escaping rather than Obi-Wan sparing him. It would have absolved Obi-Wan of the responsibility, even if he didn’t intend to kill him. Really, this whole show dropped the ball on that idea in general, tbh.

I think it is also important to consider, what a Jedi is supposed to do with Vader, if they are not allowed to kill their enemy once defeated. Particulary in the situation, where there is no option to bring him to justice, since the Emperor controls all branches of government. ROTJ makes it clear, that Obi-Wan and Yoda don’t believe Vader can be redeemed, so how is Luke supposed to stop/conquer them, if he cannot kill them? So, let’s for the sake of argument say Luke defeats Vader and the Emperor, and they are at his mercy. What then?

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Obi-Wan killed more stormtroopers than you can count in the 3 days he left Tatooine. The man has ended PLENTY of lives just hours before running into Vader…can we please stop with this “he isn’t allowed to kill” or “Jedi aren’t allowed to kill” nonsense?

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Fan_edit_fan said:

If this is all to make excuses for Ben not killing Vader in the Kenobi show…well it just seems like it’s getting ridiculous and over thinking what those writers couldn’t be bothered with…plus Obi-Wan has executed “lesser” villains and dark siders. It was Luke’s idea to try and be passive with his confrontation…that’s what makes Luke interesting, he knew a better path than Ben or Yoda would gamble with.

Why is this all being convoluted to make sense of a terribley written/cash grab tv show?

I think you missed the last sentence in my post.

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RogueLeader said:

I was curious about Vlad’s interpretation of if Obi-Wan (and by extension Yoda) were wanting or expecting Luke to kill Vader, so I tried to see if I could find Lucas saying anything about it. I did manage to find this quote from Lucas in the Making of Return of the Jedi book.

“The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him. This is the state of affairs that Yoda should refer to.”

I think that lines up with what Vladius is saying.

Wow, I had no idea that quote even existed. That’s great, thank you.

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Kaweebo said:

yotsuya said:
And the words of Padme may be ringing in his ears, “there is still good in him.” Kenobi tells Luke that he once thought that as well, and this may be that moment. Even though Vader has just said he killed Anakin, Kenobi may not be ready to accept that yet. There are lots of ways to read this that make sense in light of everything else we have in the main Saga films. We don’t have to assume that Kenobi missed the perfect chance to kill him. Killing a being who is just one of many evils in the galaxy won’t change the evil of the emperor. And we don’t know what images of the future Kenobi might have seen that leaving Vader alive is the best option.

You know, this would be great, fantastic stuff if the series bothered to show us any of that. If we got to see Kenobi try to bring Anakin back only to fail. This never actually happened, though. He beat him, said his friend was truly dead, and walked away. Hell, even Obi-Wan hearing the voice of Padme saying that would have indicated it enough but not even that is expressed. And considering this series is made for casual SW fans as well as diehards, something like that would have been warranted if they were trying to get that idea across.

There’s never an any actual moment that lines up with Vader saying Obi-Wan thought there was good in him. It wasn’t shown in RotS and it wasn’t shown here, despite you filling in the blanks for the writers who should have known better. If they had written it in a way that reflected what you wrote, it would have made more sense. But they didn’t, so unfortunately, all of this? Is you writing the script for them.

So what we’re left with is an Obi-Wan who seemed to have every intention to kill Vader, to the point of even landing a blow to his face, internalizing and vocally emphasizing that his friend is gone forever, DEAD, and then deciding to let him live anyway with zero indications of any potential thought to there being good in him still. Not even an attempt to convince him. The writing and directing do not reflect it, so there is zero reason to believe it.

JEDIT: And even then, I still think the confrontation should have ended with Vader escaping rather than Obi-Wan sparing him. It would have absolved Obi-Wan of the responsibility, even if he didn’t intend to kill him. Really, this whole show dropped the ball on that idea in general, tbh.

There are other options and no, this series does not need to explicity address exactly what happened. There are plenty of other instances in the saga where things are not explained in detail and we are left to guess.

What we saw may have been the extent of what Kenobi could muster and he had driven Vader back to a point where he can leave and going back to protect Luke is more important than finishing Vader. So a combination of other priorities and Vader being (at least momentarily) defeated in battle are the most likely reason why Kenobi left him alive.

Expecting Star Wars to spell out every little reason for everything totally ignores how the movies handle things. Most of us don’t question the OT because we first saw it when we were very young. But there is a lot it never explains. Lucas wasn’t a good explainer. What he put in the PT was certainly very subtle hints to things and tie to the core of the story.

So no, nothing I suggested is explicitly mentioned and nor would I expect it to be. I didn’t question that scene at all. What is there to really question. Kenobi faces the being who once was his friend and fights him to a point where he can walk away. Is it any surprise that he walks away? He has been going on the entire time about protecting Luke and Leia. That is his duty. Why would he risk that Vader might rally his strength (like he just did) and defeat him and leave the twins unprotected. Vader is not the only danger Kenobi has to think of. Just because we are not told the inner working of his mind does not mean there is any logical failing of the story. If that were the case there are plenty of larger questions that they fail to answer in the movies. Fans have spent years trying to answer those and some have made it into canon. We went into this knowing that Vader would not die and why Kenobi leaves after that victorious round of combat serves the saga regardless of the reason. So do we really need the reason spelled out in detail in a very un Star Wars fashion?

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NeverarGreat said:

Exactly. Before the final episode I was imagining numerous scenarios where they would fight but get separated, or where one would think the other was dead, or even where both of them are knocked unconscious like in TLJ and Obi-wan is rescued by his friends before Vader wakes up…

Anything.

Maybe it was too soon to already rip off Ren v Rey first duel 😅

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RogueLeader said:

I know others don’t agree with this, and that’s totally fine, but Cosmonaut Variety Hour summed up my own feelings about the show rather well!

https://youtu.be/QPYpHPC5acg

I watched the same thing!

Agree with most points, except that where Episode 6 worked for them, it fell apart for me. The best stuff in the show for me is still primarily the through line of Obi-wan and Leia, with almost everything else being good on paper but falling apart in execution.

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