The Big ESB Reveal — Page 4

"I've seen people say on here that, when editing ROTS, they want to preserve the Vader-is-Anakin reveal. Why?"

My take: (and obviously echoing others) to maintain the element of surprise/doubt. Back in the day in the three years between ESB and ROTJ there was rampant speculation on the playground about whether Vader was lying in order to manipulate Luke, and even outlandish talk in Star Wars weekly that Boba Fett was Luke's father and that's why he fired a warning shot rather than a headshot which of course we are all sure he was capable of. It really didn't sink in as for real until the reemphasis in ROTJ by Yoda, Ben, and Vader himself.

Personally I don't have much time for the PT, though would definitely seek out Adywan edits.

skyjedi2005 said:

TV's Frink said:

Whenever we have these "which order to watch" discussions I have to throw out the 4-5-1-2-3-6 idea.

*throw*

I personally think the best order is star wars '77, episode V, and then episode VI.  1977-1983 only.

 

HOLY SHIT, REALLY?!?!? I SHALL IMMEDIATELY RUN TO THE NEAREST PAPER PRINTING ESTABLISHMENT AND SCREAM AT THEM AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS TO "STOP THE PRESSES" SO WE CAN GET THIS LATE-BREAKING SHOCKING DISCLOSURE OUT TO THE MASSES AND WE CAN THEN...

Oops, I'm sorry, for a second I thought your post was something new.

skyjedi2005 said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Personally, I don't think the prequels are salvagable in any form, as prequels

or episodes 1-3.

Tell you what...you stop repeating yourself, I'll stop complaining about it.

Of course not.  I just want to be fair.

skyjedi2005 said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Personally, I don't think the prequels are salvagable in any form, as prequels or episodes 1-3.

Perfect quote to answer Frink i don't even need to use my own words, thanks Puggo, also sums up my feelings on fanedited prequels.

This is really silly.  It doesn't answer me at all.

I don't have a bone (nit?) to pick with anyone who hates the prequels and thinks they aren't salvageable.  I disagree, but I understand why someone would think that way and I can't blame them.

YOU, on the other hand, keep saying it over and over and over and over and over and...

Well, you get the point.  It's not the hatred of the prequels that bothers me.  I just feel bad for that dead horse you keep beating the shit out of.

Hmm, it seems tough to avoid all the frowning and foreboding about how something's unusual or wrong with the main character no matter what else is cut or added.  (unless Anakin "dies" as a dumbass kid trying to fly a spaceship but who just crashes right into the ground. And the rest of the trilogy is just Obi-Wan, P.I.  cleaning up everyone else's mess. Which would be awesome)

Sorry for the long post but....

It is perfectly possible to formulate two identities for the PT from what we hear of Anakin and Vader in the OT and apply them to the footage as it already exists and also augment it with new footage and re-dubbing.

For example consider that in TPM Anakin is not 'a great pilot' when Obi-Wan first meets him (he is an amazing pod racer but destroys the Federation Control Ship by pure accident more than design or piloting skills).

Kenobi does take him on as a pupil but this is because he is asked to by someone else.

He shows no sign of being amazed by his abilities (Qui-Gon does but Obi-Wan is actually rather dismissive and seems as worried as the Council is).

He is amazed by his what's in his blood stream but that not the same thing.

If Obi-Wan in TPM wasn't a pupil of Qui-Gon but was already a fully trained Jedi Knight he could already have a pupil called Anakin (the gifted pilot) but Kenobi finds it impossible to train both so after stubbornly insisting that Qui-Gon's wishes be followed, Vader (Anakin as seen in TPM) is given to another Knight to be trained at some point between Episode One and Two.

Anakin feels guilty about this.

He wants to somehow make it up to the displaced young hero and when he senses Vader's mother in danger but Obi-Wan doesn't seem to take these dreams seriously, he tries and fails to save her.

In her delirium Shmi thinks he is her son who has come to rescue her and the impact of her death as he predicted leaves Anakin psychologically scarred.

Vader is assumed killed in an explosion during the first battle of the Clone Wars but in his nightmares Anakin sees a dark hooded figure taking revenge for Shmi's death and killing Jedi.

Anakin becomes more and more convinced that Vader has turned bad and thrown in with this mysterious Sith Lord that everyone is going on about.

The Separatists have a cyborg General who appears to have a grudge against the Jedi and specifically targets them and the Jedi keep giving the task of confronting him to Obi-Wan.

The only person who listens to Anakin is Palpatine, who drip feeds him his concerns that the Jedi may take advantage of the war and take over for themselves.

He constantly tries to warn the Jedi about his predictions but he isn't trusted because of his connections with Palpatine and because he has broken the Jedi code by marrying Padme (who has become pregnant and also dismisses his nightmares).

Anakin concludes that the General is Darth Vader and his dreams take on a more horrific nature when he see the shadowy figure leading a clone army into the temple and killing children.

Obi-wan is leading an assault on the Separatists on a volcanic planet when Anakin seemingly catches Mace Windu in the act of trying to kill the Chancellor.

Palpatine's warnings of a Jedi take over seem to be confirmed.

He 'rescues' the Chancellor and tracks Obi-wan to the volcanic planet where he has evaded 'arrest' and finds the Separatists waiting for Darth Vader to save them. Kenobi is convinced that Anakin is behind the attack on the temple (an event that really happened just as Anakin predicted).

Vader has 'set up' Anakin to either kill his friend or die by his hand.

Anakin ultimately loses the duel and 'dies'.

In reality Darth Vader did die in the Clone Wars and the shadowy figure in Anakin's dreams, was Anakin all along in a fugue state brought on by guilt and paranoia.

Anakin has died and becomes The Sith Lord Darth Vader only we don't discover this for certain until ROTJ.

Obi-wan takes Padme to Dagobah and she gives birth, she goes to live and die young on Alderaan.

After receiving further training from his unseen former Master (Yoda) Obi-Wan takes Luke to live with Kenobi's brother Owen on Tatooine.

A first time viewer would then have plenty of room to believe Vader betrayed and murdered Luke's father by setting him up for a fall and that the man behind the mask was the same man Anakin was seeing in his dreams (which he was from a certain point of view).

In a way Jake Lloyd even gets to become Darth Vader (just not the same one) and the cyborg General also blurs the line.

Anakin/Vader doesn't stop being manipulated by Palpatine either he believes that the Jedi were attempting to take over and the Empire is the only way to prevent another war.

Leia can remember her mother and we don't find out there were twins until ROTJ.

Obi Wan is trained by Yoda alone and though we hear of him we never see him.

It's not a perfect scenario and it's not the only one but it fits and much of the existing footage could be used to tell it.

Darth Bizarro said:

TV's Frink said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Personally, I don't think the prequels are salvagable in any form, as prequels

or episodes 1-3.

Tell you what...you stop repeating yourself, I'll stop complaining about it.

Can't we all just accept the fact that some of us like the prequels and some of us don't.  I was under the impression that we were all pretty much of the common opinion that the original unaltered trilogy ought to be preserved.  Is it really worth throwing feces at one another over something as trivial as little microscopic force generating organisms and a cartoon rabbit who steps in the poopie.

I seriously don't think there is a single person here who thinks the prequels are better than the original trilogy, or even on par.  But that doesn't mean that some of us can't still enjoy them to a certain extent.

Perhaps it would help if you were to read my follow-up post.

EDIT: Wait, were you talking to me or skyjedi?

Darth Bizarro said:

TV's Frink said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Personally, I don't think the prequels are salvagable in any form, as prequels

or episodes 1-3.

Tell you what...you stop repeating yourself, I'll stop complaining about it.

Can't we all just accept the fact that some of us like the prequels and some of us don't.  I was under the impression that we were all pretty much of the common opinion that the original unaltered trilogy ought to be preserved.  Is it really worth throwing feces at one another over something as trivial as little microscopic force generating organisms and a cartoon rabbit who steps in the poopie.

I seriously don't think there is a single person here who thinks the prequels are better than the original trilogy, or even on par.  But that doesn't mean that some of us can't still enjoy them to a certain extent.

That's fair.  

At the same time, I like a good skyjedi vs. frink cagematch.  Good times.

I like Bingo's plot, but regarding the "real" Vader, why would Anakin take his name? Also, such scenario risks diminishing the reveal's impact because some could assume Vader is the one who lies. But then things on the screen take different results than on paper, so I can't say for sure.

Put Captain Solo in the Cargo Hold said:

I like Bingo's plot, but regarding the "real" Vader, why would Anakin take his name? Also, such scenario risks diminishing the reveal's impact because some could assume Vader is the one who lies. But then things on the screen take different results than on paper, so I can't say for sure.

Guilt would be the prime motivator.

Guilt at being chosen over the hero of the hour, guilt at not being able to save Vader's mother, not to mention the freak out moment when Vader's dying mum confuses him with her son.

When Real Vader is believed killed Anakin sees his guilt in the form of the giant dark shadowy Darth Vader doing terrible things he can not prevent, but really this is himself.

Once he awakens to the fact that the real Vader is dead, it's too late to save Anakin (burnt to a crisp, his order shamed and hounded, his friend and mentor has permanently disabled him and left him for dead, his wife has abandoned him and taken his child) so he becomes Vader. His suppressed Id becomes his new Ego.

In the PT as it currently exists we have someone who consciously does terrible things (like killing children) and still bitches about getting overlooked for a promotion, and we are meant to feel sympathy for this guy? He is the guy who can be redeemed by throwing the old man down a well?

If he did those things while suffering a genuine mental illness it's possible to feel sympathy for him and even forgive him because he isn't totally responsible.

If he therapeutically dressed up like Doctor Doom and strangled underachieving co-workers, that would require some redemptive act to compensate.

As for believing that Vader is lying while watching the ESB reveal, I was a ten years old in 1980 I can assure you back then a large number of us were convinced Vader was messing with Luke's mind.

It wasn't until ROTJ that we knew for sure so if that scenario works on that level it's doing it's job.

TV's Frink said:

Whenever we have these "which order to watch" discussions I have to throw out the 4-5-1-2-3-6 idea.

*throw*

As far as incorporating the existing 'official' prequels into a complete whole viewing order of the six 'STAR WARS' movies, this is a notion that I've grown to REALLY like since it was first brought up a while back.  So if I *had* to choose a complete saga viewing order for myself or anyone new to it all...then I'd definately favour the 4-5-1-2-3-6 scenario, personally.

What I like about it most is not just the way that this particular order manages to preserve the various main 'reveals' intact along the way...but that it also importantly retains a more dramatic structure overall that I far prefer...because it allows for the more powerful opening scroll and intro. visuals of 'A New Hope' to initially start everything off once again, which defines the impactful way that the 'STAR WARS' saga used to begin 'mid-action'...and alway should, as far as I'm concerned.

So rather than having to start the saga off on a far less satisfying note with a trilogy of disappointing movies that only retroactively became the new 'official' beginning...things can now hit the ground running for me with my two favourite episodes kicking the whole thing off instead, as they originally did.

And using this alternative order, I find that I can be slightly more tolerant of the underwhelming 'backstory' episodes now, even if unedited in their current versions...knowing that if they are slotted into sequence like this, then at least they won't give certain things away, before we come to them.  In fact, I rather like a lot of the 'Anakin becomes Vader' imagery that's seen in 'Revenge of the Sith', when it's integrated into the context of this re-ordered 4-5-1-2-3-6 sequence.  Although not the ridiculous "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" yell, obviously...

Speaking for myself, I would find it difficult to encourage anyone new to the 'STAR WARS' saga to progress through the movies in their current 'official' order of chapter numbering.  My previous preference would have been for them to at least watch the two trilogies in their theatrical release order of 4-5-6-1-2-3...so that the prequels wouldn't dilute the effect of seeing what occurred in the Original Trilogy.

But I now reckon that the 4-5-1-2-3-6  sequence is an even better option if I had to watch the entire saga in future...since this would allow things to eventually conclude with the satisfyingly upbeat finale that the 'Return of the Jedi' movie offers, overall. :)

...which is why in an ideal world for me, NONE of the movies would be restrictively numbered...  They would just go by their individual titles, so that they wouldn't seem to be out of their 'official' order, if anyone wanted to watch them in a different sequence to GL's retroactive order.

Anyway, where the prequels are concerned, I'm grateful for, and fully in agreement with the various relevant points that cap highlighted on this page -  Here

Darth Bizarro said:

TV's Frink said:

Darth Bizarro said:

TV's Frink said:

skyjedi2005 said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Personally, I don't think the prequels are salvagable in any form, as prequels

or episodes 1-3.

Tell you what...you stop repeating yourself, I'll stop complaining about it.

Can't we all just accept the fact that some of us like the prequels and some of us don't.  I was under the impression that we were all pretty much of the common opinion that the original unaltered trilogy ought to be preserved.  Is it really worth throwing feces at one another over something as trivial as little microscopic force generating organisms and a cartoon rabbit who steps in the poopie.

I seriously don't think there is a single person here who thinks the prequels are better than the original trilogy, or even on par.  But that doesn't mean that some of us can't still enjoy them to a certain extent.

Perhaps it would help if you were to read my follow-up post.

EDIT: Wait, were you talking to me or skyjedi?

I did read it actually, I just accidentally hit reply with quote to the previous one.

I was really talking to both of you.  You guys were getting poo all over the walls.

*deal with it gif*

As I said, I'm willing to shut up as soon as Captain Repetition is.