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The Acolyte (live action series set in The High Republic era) - a general discussion thread — Page 9

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This is a difficult episode to break down. On the one hand, I barely even want to try because we clearly do not have enough information to explain the sequence of events, but on the other hand, the way these mysteries now hang in the air comes off to me as more confusing than intriguing. Overall, if asked, “Was this episode good for the show’s plot, and was it good for the larger mythos of Star Wars in general?” My answer to both of those questions would be a no.

Many fans didn’t like it, and while some can at least peer through the surface-level cultural criticisms and see the foundation of a mystery that might eventually have an interesting revelation, this show does not appeal to the masses and it will not be seen as a critical or financial success. Whether you enjoy it or not, the viewing numbers are not good for the premiere. 11.1 million viewers over 5 days is an abject failure. Ahsoka got 14 million over the same time with about half the budget of the Acolyte, and Disney wasn’t even satisfied with that performance. Yes, it’s D+'s “biggest premiere of 2024”, but have you looked at the competition? This is only their third show to launch this year, the others were “Echo” and “Renegade Nell”. That news line is an article title spun to create misleading good press for a D+ streaming platform that is hemorrhaging money and sprinting toward another quarter in the red. Iger has stated that their model failed to meet their goals, Star Wars has massively failed to bring in the money they expected it to, and we are seeing a product of that overall planning failure in the Acolyte. That does not at all mean that The Acolyte itself is “the worst thing Star Wars has ever done!!!”, I only preface this review to say that Disney tried something with many of these shows and it didn’t work financially. After Skeleton Crew and Andor S2 (maaaaybe Ahsoka S2) which are products of the old/current D+ model, we should expect to see something very different going forward for Star Wars.

Anyway, I want to focus on analyzing the episode itself now. I thought that some of the introduced ideas were fun to explore on paper, but in the episodic structure of this show, the execution of communicating such ideas was a mess and did not generate increased interest or emotion in me, and perhaps did the opposite.

Pacing and Structure

I was excited upon seeing the 44-minute runtime, as the brevity of the premiere was my primary criticism. I thought the overall pacing of Episode 3 was superior to the first two, however, even though I do generally prefer slower stories, I was actually left feeling sort of bored with this episode until the Jedi showed up. I’ll explain more in another category, but I was having trouble knowing who to empathize with or relate to in this opening 20 minutes, so the slow pacing left me feeling quite lost as to the intended direction of the plot. Overall though, I was actually pleased that this 44-minute episode felt like it had a story to tell in this designated timeframe, and it performed adequately at pacing the events throughout. I would have preferred a driving action at least 5 minutes earlier because the Witch stuff was somewhat offputting and made me feel uncomfortable, but once the Jedi walked in I could understand some of the setup.

The structure of the episode was a bit confusing. They left out scenes (intentionally, I believe) and presented situations that didn’t make any sense due to the information we were missing. Perhaps you can say this is an effort to generate intrigue for future episodes, but I would say that the sequence of events that unfolded did not make me more interested in learning what the revelations are, but rather they simply annoyed me because they seemingly painted other situations as nonsense. For example:

  • Why does Mae hate the Jedi so much when it seems like they were quite willing to negotiate and Sol showed great empathy?
  • Why does Torbin feel so much guilt when Mae was clearly the initiator of the violence?
  • How did all of the Witches die so suddenly in the same place?
  • What were all of the other Jedi doing during this very quick fire/destruction?

I fully expect answers to all of those questions and suspect our Sith figure has a significant role to play in all of this, but even brainstorming possible solutions with that in mind… I struggle to come up with answers that would justify all of these events. There would need to be some extremely high-quality writing to deliver on all of this setup and mystery. I feel worried about potential shallow and unsatisfactory revelations more than excited about the answers. I don’t think that’s an unfair caution I have, because thus far, none of the show’s revelations have given me any reason to think anything groundbreaking/mind-blowing is coming. We are ~38% through the entire show and I still have no idea what the direction is. Full flashback episodes are distracting in nature in general, and this seemed like it was intended at one point to serve as Episode 1, but then moved to Ep 3 due to anticipated backlash if it were to lead as the premiere. It felt very out of place in the episodic structure of the show as a whole.

Dialogue and Writing Quality

The dialogue quality took a complete nosedive in the episode. I would go as far as to say it is the worst dialogue I have heard in any singular episode of a Disney Star Wars show. The poem Mae and Osha repeat is extremely on the nose and awkward to listen to (we have heard it multiple times now, and it really violates the “show, don’t tell” rule), the Witch chant “The power of one! The power of two! The power of maaannnyyy!” was truly painful to listen to, and the worst offender in the episode, “You can’t stop me.” “Yes, I can.” “How?” “I’ll kill you.” was so poorly written I was completely 100% taken out of the scene. I understand a huge theme of the show is this dichotomy of light v dark represented in Osha v Mae, but the dialogue is so beyond elementary it is insulting how simply they are trying to communicate that to me. “The Jedi are good.” “The Jedi are bad.” “It’s not about good or bad…” This is middle school theater writing. I know that outside of Andor and some scenes in the OT, Star Wars has never excelled in this area to begin with, but this is a different level of low quality than even PT criticisms. As Mae and Osha stand on a collapsing bridge, the lines legitimately go, “What have you done?” “What have you done?” “What have you done?” Three times in a row back and forth… The rest of the episode was simply quite bland in this department, and certainly not enough to cover up the smorgasbord of poorly written and delivered lines.

The writing in this episode left us with way more questions than answers, which is strange for a 44-minute flashback. Usually, that is done to reveal mysteries, not create new ones. As I prefaced this review, this is the hardest section to cover because I genuinely cannot critique or praise many of the events because we have no clue why or how they happened. Things like the dead Witches, the character motivations, the Jedi guilt, Mae’s anger, how the fire spread so quickly, why the Jedi were even there in the first place, etc. are all unanswerable. I will leave these open for now and return when we have the proper context to address them as revelations unfold in future episodes. For now, let’s focus on three newly revealed storyline details.

  • A sect of outcast force users (seemingly, EXTREMELY powerful/in tune with the force) band together to form a Witch “coven”. Some seem to have roots and history with the Nightsisters of Dathomir (hinted that they were exiled?), while others in the coven seem to have joined seeking refuge/safety as they delve into practices the “galaxy” doesn’t approve of. It is unclear if all of the women are force-sensitive, or if some are merely there in support of others who are. I find it hard to believe that so many force users went undetected as children and then all banded together in an extremely powerful coven without the Jedi intervening prior. We see humans, Nightsisters, Twi’leks, and some sort of rat-like lady in this coven, so for whatever reason these people have banded together without a common geographic origin. They aren’t Nightsisters themselves and with various species intermixing, I’m not even sure why they are all women. All we know is that together this group was apparently “hunted, persecuted, and forced into hiding,” however we are given no idea as to who did that. The Jedi…? Where/when/why was this randomly assembled coven shown to be such a threat to the Jedi? The Jedi never historically cared about the Nightsisters. As long as they stayed out of the way, they were free to practice whatever cultish beliefs they wanted to. Nightsisters traditionally worshipped “Spirits” rather than the force, rejected the light v dark dichotomy, and believed they communed directly with the beings of Mortis and drew their “Magick” from them rather than having a connection to an all-surrounding force presence. Obviously, they had a somewhat incorrect interpretation, but they still had great power, perhaps some even possessing power greater than the Jedi or the Sith (we saw this in TCW and the Jedi game series). Nightsisters were having their own biological children the entire time with the nightbrothers, and the Jedi weren’t preying on their entire species/people group, so I just didn’t understand where all of this “persecution” to “the brink of extinction” was coming from. Certainly not the main Nightsister clans, because they would never chase this group around the galaxy like the Mother indicates. I really don’t know what could be going on here. The Mother states that they have hidden away because “The galaxy does not welcome women like us.” Again, I was utterly baffled at this idea. The “galaxy” doesn’t give a shit about the Nightsisters or tiny sects of isolated Magick users… They never have. They have always let them live in isolation and practice their rituals in peace as long as it doesn’t disrupt the Republic. On top of this, the Mother is immediately previously shown very peacefully interacting with the local towns in peace, seemingly very welcomed by “the galaxy”. Not only was that oddly phrased, but certainly the persecution had nothing to do with them specifically being women. I am going to avoid the 2024 cultural discussion entirely, but I understand why people feel that they can read modern Earth politics into this. A simple, lore-accurate alteration to avoid this entire drama would have been, “The Jedi do not welcome into their Order Witches like us who use powers they consider to be ‘dark’.” Boom, done, none of the distractions are included, it’s true to Star Wars history, and it’s understandable why they wanted to leave the Republic where the Jedi commonly patrol. I don’t doubt Jedi would be uncomfortable around Magick users and conflict could potentially arise, but this “hunted to the brink of extinction” idea, I just don’t know where it’s coming from.

  • The Mother has a unique perspective of the force, and I have no problem with primitive cultures like this coming to alternative understandings of the force, but I don’t understand what their philosophy even is. She claims that the Jedi “use” and “wield” the force, and portrays that as a negative way to commune with it. She then contrasts that with her Thread theory in a positive light, saying by “pulling it” you can “change everything”, “tie you to destiny”, and “bind you to others”. To me, that sounded exactly like “using” and “wielding” the force… Perhaps I am missing the future context of her beliefs, but I saw absolutely no difference between the two viewpoints and it came off as a different, yet equally exclusive and dogmatic belief. If anything, I would say that her views more closely align with the dark side than the light, as Jedi do not pull the force to intentionally “change everything” and “bind to destiny”, they commune with it in peace with all living things and work toward mutual good and order (ideally, speaking). Either way, Osha and Mae are trained in this alternative understanding of the force and we can see the results. Both are left unbalanced and struggling to maintain inner peace, which is not a good quality to have in Star Wars.

  • Somehow, in a presently unrevealed manner, the Mother created life and implanted twins into her partner’s womb. It’s hard to comment specifically on this yet as we have no clue as to how she accomplished this, but what we can say is that this is beyond anything we have ever seen in Star Wars. It is a power always thought impossible. This is the time period in which Plageuis was experimenting with such powers and attempting to do this to create the perfect apprentice, but he failed. The force itself created Anakin to restore balance as it was, at that time, unbalanced due to the many manipulations and attempted usages of it for purposes it did not will for. So Osha and Mae being directly conceived by the Mother purely through the force is… confounding. We need more information to properly understand what happened here, so I will just say this has the potential to be problematic to lore, but not necessarily depending on where they go with it.

Overall, with these strange new practices and beliefs, I found the writing to be confusing and trying to seem complex when it truly wasn’t. It came off to me as pretentious and not building anything good upon Star Wars mythology. I love the Nightsisters and their religion of Magick, I love alternative beliefs about the force (the ancient Sith, the Rakata, the Zakuul), but this episode was just not well written in communicating a cohesive new understanding of the force in my opinion.

Production Quality and Creative Direction

The episode opens up on a beautiful and colorful setting. It invoked in me a sense of wanting to travel there and experience the galaxy full of mysteries, so I appreciated the design. I thought the sky and atmosphere looked great during the Witch ceremony, dark and purple hues definitely set a voodoo-like tone. The Witch coven building was nothing special, but it wasn’t intended to be. It gave off abandoned dam or mine vibes. The costumes here were okay, I thought it was a little strange for this persecuted and on-the-run group of Witches to have such perfectly coordinated and pressed robes… But I suppose one of them there is an excellent seamstress and they value having noble appearances and jewelry. Nothing wowed me other than the initial garden, but that old rat lady Witch was shockingly poor CGI. Looked absolutely atrocious. I would say that is unacceptably bad for a $180 million budget. I forgot to comment on it in my first review, but I am very disappointed by the soundtrack thus far. I have heard no standout tracks, and while it’s not distractingly bad or anything, I would say it’s the weakest I’ve heard from D+ Star Wars shows. I think TRoS had the worst soundtrack, and I’d put this in the same category of bottom-tier Star Wars music. I hope when the Sith shows up he will at least get things moving musically.

This episode was very focused on beliefs, culture, and identity, so I covered a lot of the creative direction in the Writing section. I would usually cover the combat and choreography here too, but there was none. Strange for the longest episode to not have a single fight scene, and even the only action at all was the 2 minutes of a fire spreading at a confusing rate. I think this episode was bogged down in trying to show the inner workings of the coven and the relationship between Mae and Osha that there wasn’t much room for anything else. I didn’t see anything here that stood out as expanding upon the High Republic era.

Performances and Characters

Again, Sol was the standout in the few scenes he was in. His actor portrayed great ranges of emotion and he continues to be the star of the show whenever he is on. The main Mother did a decent job with her voodoo-inspired performance, as well as translating her love to her children. Unfortunately, this episode was very bogged down by a distractingly poor performance from young Mae/Osha. I absolutely hate having to critique child actors, but this stood out to me as very badly acted and I have to point it out. From the lack of communicating Mae’s emotions believably, to the utterly confusing facial expressions and actions Osha was making at various events (the “I will kill you” and ensuing fire escape gave me major kid Leia in the forest vibes), I was unfortunately pulled out of believing the scenes due to some poor performances. No one else had enough screen time to even evaluate.

Finally, I want to address the characters from a perspective of who I felt like I should empathize with because I think this is one of the biggest missing components of this episode.

  • Osha - She was the clearest person we can relate with here. She doesn’t like being boxed into having no personal choice, she wants to blaze her own path, and others keep pressuring her to conform. However, I was very much not understanding why she was so set on wanting to be a Jedi. Surely, for the past 8 years, she has been told that the Jedi are not her friends, so I don’t know how she got the motivation to leave her mothers and sister and family to join a group that she has been told hates her…

  • Mae - From minute 1 of this episode, Mae is giving major child serial killer vibes. She is immediately shown to be torturing animals, extremely controlling and possessive of her sister, not free thinking and seeking approval of others, desiring personal power and respect, etc. She then tried to murder her dear twin in cold blood by locking her in a room and burning her to death. It’s beyond psychotic behavior. I thought this was a very strange route to take with her character, and this episode destroyed any sort of sympathy I had for her as an adult.

  • Sol - Even though the Jedi aren’t portrayed in a great light here, we can empathize with Sol because he shows genuine love to the children. He is depicted as the Jedi with wisdom and care in this group whereas the others appear cold and stoic.

  • Mother - I suppose we can empathize with her love for her children, but her wielding seemingly dark powers and creating life out of nothing is not something I empathize with. Everything I know about Star Wars lore points to this as a morally bad practice and one that the force itself will harshly rebel against. She leads a very black magic-inspired cult with incorrect views of the force and is just as intolerant of the Jedi as they are of her. If anything, she comes off as true neutral to me because she possesses basic decency toward others and is not entirely self-centered as we expect from Dark side users, but she isn’t someone to cheer for either. She seems to enjoy being worshipped and respected by her cult and speaks as though her word is truth, except only to her daughters.

Conclusion
Rating: 2.2/10 (I’d call it “very weak”, but not “horrible” or “unwatchable”)

Pros:

Another standout performance by Sol
Attempting to explore other views of the force
The worlds in day and night looked great

Cons:

Plot threads left open in a confusing, rather than intriguing, manner
Worst dialogue I have heard from D+ Star Wars yet, combined with bad deliveries
Newly presented ideologies are not internally coherent and do not align with the larger mythos of Star Wars

Best scenes:

  1. Sol giving Osha his lightsaber
  2. Sol testing Osha
  3. Opening garden scene (purely for the setting)

Worst Scenes:

  1. “I’ll kill you” Mae attempting to burn her sister alive (horrendous dialogue and awful characterization of Mae)
  2. Witch “ascension” chant (extremely goofy looking, felt like a corny fantasy b-movie)
  3. Bridge collapsing and dead Witches (these events were very confusing as they were playing out, and I was looking for any sort of explanation until the episode inexplicably ended with Mae in the garden looking for Osha. I know it’s a mystery, but mysteries have to be structured so that each clue and subsequent next question is a satisfying process, not a frustrating one)

(The Force Awakens) Heirs of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Last Jedi) Fate of the Jedi | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Rise of Skywalker) Legacy of the Force | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

(The Bad Batch) Cinematic Version | A More Mature Edit

(The Mandalorian+Boba) The Way of Mandalore | A Compilation Edit

(Kenobi) | A Star Wars Legends Re-edit

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I hope the ‘mystery box’ element of what happened to the witches isn’t The Acolyte’s raison d’etre, as once all becomes clear the show might have little or no rewatchability.

So far, for myself I am really enjoying some of the incidental elements, such as the set designs and new environments (particularly in this 3rd episode which had a rather medieval castle feel to it), and I really like the atmospheric soundtrack.

The performances and script… hmmm, not so great. For all the amazing work the set builders and prop makers have done, if the actors fail to convince that they exist in that world and are part of those environments then it all comes off as a little bit cosplayish and lacks human ‘truth’. A couple of the more experienced actors are just about managing to sell it, but for the most part the cast appear to me as actors performing and reciting lines.

It’s lower tier Star Wars to me right now, but y’know Star Wars is like pizza. Even bad pizza is still pretty yummy, and I’d rather watch the next episode of The Acolyte than 99% of other things on TV.

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Enjoying reading everyone’s thoughts. I know others have already shared similar feelings but love your thorough write-up Acbagel. Definitely think those are all valid thoughts. I feel like when I watch the new movies or shows, I try to have fun with it as someone who just enjoys seeing new Star Wars stuff (especially when I watch something with my dad who also is a life-long casual fan), but also can’t help but be critical a lot of the time too. I want to enjoy it, but also think it’s fair to want the franchise to be as good as it is capable of being.

Wanted to add some thoughts on one of your points. It seems a lot of people agree that Sol is a standout performance in the series so far. I definitely think his ability to express emotion is a highlight, and from what I’ve read in interviews it seems like being able to express his emotions physically was important to him. I think it speaks to the long-time dilemma of how to portray Jedi as stoic monks in control of their emotions, but also get a good performance out of Jedi characters. While I don’t think this is impossible to do it is interesting that this dilemma has come back around in the form of this character.

Actually found some snippets from an interview where Lee Jung-Jae, who plays Sol, speaks on this dilemma.

Kim: What was the hardest part about playing Sol?

Lee: I’d have to say it was successfully pulling off the role of a Jedi. If you take, say, a film like Il Mare, there’s no history behind it since it’s a standalone work. So I can act freely according to my own imagination. But with Star Wars, it’s a franchise with a 50-year history, and we’ve seen many other Jedis during that time, with a number of different actors playing them. So I had to think a lot about how this role and this series ties into the broader Star Wars saga, and also about how to portray a Jedi in a way that’s consistent with the Jedis from previous works, that’s consistent with the image of the Jedi Order. But at the same time, there were also parts about Sol that I had to make up on my own. So there were a lot of things I had to keep in mind while playing Sol in order to successfully convey both aspects—both the traditional image of a Jedi and Sol’s individual personality—simultaneously.

Kim: Sol definitely seems like a character that would be difficult to portray. Is there anything you did in particular to make it easier to play Sol?

Lee: I wouldn’t say I did anything in particular—rather, Director Leslye and I talked a lot on set about how to make Sol’s character more multifaceted and three-dimensional. I also watched how Jedis were portrayed by different actors in previous Star Wars films and shows. As I mentioned before, it was most important for me to figure out how to simultaneously convey the image of a classic Jedi and the image of Sol as a Jedi.

Also, The Acolyte takes place before the other Star Wars shows and films, so that means that Sol is from an older generation of Jedis. So I imagined that Sol became a Jedi at a time when Jedi training was a bit less developed and formalized, and I thought that could translate into Sol having a harder time controlling his human emotions. I thought it could seem more interesting if I were to express his emotions a bit more candidly. So when the situation called for Sol to be friendly, I’d show him as being more openly friendly and warm-hearted. And when Sol was feeling fear, I would try to express his fear more. But as a result, audiences have been saying that this Jedi seems to be rather different. (laughs)

It is sort of a chicken/egg question for me. Did Headland want to portray this Jedi as more emotional from the get-go, or was that decision from Lee’s desire to play a character that could express his emotions, and they found a story way to rationalize it. If I had to guess, the fate of his character will tie into the theme of the Jedi becoming more stoic by the time of the Prequel Era. It’s possible this was inline with Headland’s plans and it conveniently worked out with how Lee wanted to play him, though it also sounds like Headland hand-picked Lee because of his ability to express his feelings.

When The Acolyte creator Leslye Headland saw Lee in Squid Game, she knew she’d found the right person to play Sol. “He just ran the gamut of every single emotion,” she said in a promo video for the show. "And then when I worked with him I was like, ‘this is the best actor I’ve ever worked with,’ " she told IGN.

Anyway, not trying to paint a black or white opinion on the matter, just thought it would be an interesting topic to discuss!

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Enjoyed episode 3, but the dialogue still feels utterly uninspired.

And the presumably twin girls who play young Osha and Mae look nothing alike, and it seems inconceivable that they would as adults.

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I’ve regarded the show as Nancy Drew/Hardy Boys Star Wars until this episode, not bad per se, just not what I am geeking out about the most for Star Wars.
What I really liked about Ep 3 was how The Coven has a very Taoist approach to The Force and the Jedi are more Confucian. I’d love to see this explored more throughout not just the show but the entire franchise however I suspect this episode is a one-off for that sort of thinking.

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I’ve been enjoying the series so far. It’s a bit boring, with awkward pacing and poor dialog, yet perfectly watchable. On the positive side, it feels like Star Wars, looks reasonably good, and has an overall interesting story.

Not great, but also not a disaster, just average. Would benefit from a series to movie fanedit!

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4throck said:
Would benefit from a series to movie fanedit!

This is true of much of the current uvre of streaming-original shows. Especially the Disney+ Star Wars shows.

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I feel like we’re in for a roshoman scenario that will give us a new perspective on this episode hence why I’m still going to hold back judgement until the end of the season

Peace is a lie
There is only passion…

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Acbagel said:

The structure of the episode was a bit confusing. They left out scenes (intentionally, I believe) and presented situations that didn’t make any sense due to the information we were missing. Perhaps you can say this is an effort to generate intrigue for future episodes, but I would say that the sequence of events that unfolded did not make me more interested in learning what the revelations are, but rather they simply annoyed me because they seemingly painted other situations as nonsense. For example:

  • Why does Mae hate the Jedi so much when it seems like they were quite willing to negotiate and Sol showed great empathy?
  • Why does Torbin feel so much guilt when Mae was clearly the initiator of the violence?
  • How did all of the Witches die so suddenly in the same place?
  • What were all of the other Jedi doing during this very quick fire/destruction?

I agree - the direction of the Coven fire scene was disjointed and confusing. Mae lights a small flame, which nearly instantly engulfs the surrounding area, then some sort of “reactor room” is shown, causing further explosions/damage to the compound. We then see all the witches dead, their corpses piled up on the floor, but they don’t appear burned.

Giving the show the benefit of the doubt and assuming all of this was meant to suggest some deeper mystery, one possible interpretation is that we’re meant to suspect that the Jedi massacred all those witches for some reason. This would explain why Mae later hates the Jedi, and also explain why Torbin willingly committed suicide, seemingly out of guilt. Of course, it’s a really hard sell to convince an audience the Jedi would do something like this, but perhaps it has something to do with the “dark magic” used by the witch Mother to spawn life using the Dark Side, “an ability some consider to be unnatural”.

Another possibility is Mae believes (perhaps due to some misunderstanding) that the Jedi massacred all those witches, but she is mistaken, and different POV perspectives of the Coven fire will later shed light on what really happened.

Who knows. We’ll see. But the worst possible outcome is probably that what we saw of the Coven fire is simply meant to be a straightforward, face-value depiction of what happened. Meaning that Mae’s little fire inexplicably killed everyone because the writers were too lazy to think of anything else. I lean more in the direction of believing the disjointed footage of the Coven fire is meant to suggest a deeper mystery that will be later revealed via a different POV of the same events.

I guess the general problem is there’s no directorial cues in the Coven fire scene that lead the audience to experience a sense of mystery or intrigue, or suggest something is “off”. Like the sort of directorial cues you’d see in a Hitchcock or Kubrick film where even a normal conversation can be made to feel “off” and laced with mystery/intrigue. The Coven fire is presented in a straightforward, but weirdly disjointed manner, in a way that feels more like bad editing rather than imbued with intrigue. But I suspect there is, in fact, a greater mystery here surrounding what actually happened during the Coven fire.

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Mae lighting the fire is a misdirect (duh).

This show is great, I have the feeling we’ll get another extended flashback down the line showing the events of ep.3 from somebody else’s perspective (the Jedi? or several perspectives). But anyway, I saw on a previous page that someone was recommending some youtubers who discuss this show, I’d like to chime in and give a shoutout to the What The Force podcast, I like their discussions because they analyze star wars from a mythological/storytelling perspective and this show has a lot to unpack in terms of symbolism and archetypes and such. They delve deep, just a little tease: they unpack how the poison tree is supposed to be a representation of the force.

By the way, do we think the sith apprentice teeth mask person was also present the night of the fire and thus integral to the whole plot from the start? Or nah

reylo?

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Sideburns of BoShek said:

I found it thoroughly entertaining, if unexpected, and slowly revealing both the mystery and the answers. A little like:

 
For anyone looking for some non-toxic YouTubers talking about The Acolyte; while having balanced discussions; praise, flaws, criticisms, what worked & what didn’t, as well as aspects they enjoyed or liked, or where they think future episodes may go:

Mainly Breakdown Videos:

ScreenCrush: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDVUo0d8uHheoSOkZDx3pAxP5TbXrwHdv
Heavy Spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGC5wT7cYxYUjnX2kG584Al6jZH6_B4nC
CinePals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1iFrkrLXwI
New Rockstars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsdheMKN4oc
Reel Rejects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zux0GH4MA8I
Corey’s Datapad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFdfhvK6v7o&list=PLsBzKyQ6EH-VI2SUAP5YNLVOwi3uLmzm2&index=4
Star Wars Fanatic: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTiIzqijSPCe13CQE6mmk7qcFiNn3Vc5j
Star Wars Explained (a little bland for me, although I can see why so popular): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJi6c1bHRE4
What The Force (podcast): https://whattheforce.ca (credit to KumoNin for the suggestion)

Mainly Reaction Videos:

StruggleNation: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRURips3qv-TrxsZt-Oz0H0ix7-Mng84y
Kyle Katarn: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEeI7MyP8QuLV0i7w1ZUVUKUSu8JjXTO6
LouiseJulie: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT798_VVJTLfCAOpE2N7hJxObI2JnhO5Y
Nerdy Nightly: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvahTXNi_Ea0gnSM_4Z8GERmesxd7sXNj
Heroes Reforged: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgg_dS3XFBim81DyPq5YG1KcHwahe_84q
sesskasays: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzXdyoq6SmsqfhNzU7Anc4tuVS7J1bWmO
Wave Squadron: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5Ejcb5no0KwoGuncTh-I_Y0x-zEo3ql7
Remote Rebels: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL07Y8s2oWyAvMnS-CUi1UcbS0ca-Di51m
Jedi Jive: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZif8ENrpW7wkVFU1ksG4hHmspG9xxLmN
Late to the Party: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrOFRkMEjFp1Bi-NTX0B-aIJQVq8NqStq
Jessie Gender: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp2EuUJQ2uCOrAbnXl66a7CyVfD-brVnQ
emme reacts: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaQZmg8DbvNY9TNZr5Cc5OcaOdVirBfSk

Looking forward to seeing Acolyte content from the following:

TrashCompactor: https://www.youtube.com/@trashcompod/videos
HelloGreedo: https://www.youtube.com/@HelloGreedo/videos
Watch with Marcella: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeIbetXaQDPPKHe97W5E2NY63VPxaIRgw
Kim Ellendale: https://www.youtube.com/@KimEllendale/videos
Media Musings: https://www.youtube.com/@Media-Musings/videos
The Normies: https://www.youtube.com/@Thenormies/playlists
Laura Reactions: https://www.youtube.com/@LauraReactions/videos
rocknroll41: https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com
 

I hope anyone interested finds something they like, or astute, or just fun. More like-minded channels are out there!

If anyone has any suggestions of channels or podcasts etc to be added to the above list please post them in here or PM me.

Thank you very much for including me here! I really appreciate it!

I’m starting to think that acolyte would work better as a binging show, rather than week to week. I’m gonna wait until it’s over before I watch the rest, I think.

That said, it could still end up being my favorite sw show (depending on how it ends).

My blog: https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/
My books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08SLGZJ11
My bandcamp: https://nunohenrysilva.bandcamp.com/
My SoundCloud: https://m.soundcloud.com/user-327161148
My playlists: https://m.youtube.com/@nunohenrysilva/playlists
My Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/user/goldendreamseeker/submitted/

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Anjohan said:

Vladius is right on the money.

The fact that people have to reiterate that the reason the fandom is toxic is because women are now the dominant force in Star Wars is laughable. That is all coming from the manipulative media spout going on. Nothing creates more clicks than putting people up against each other. America is one of the best in the business at this; not to mention Hollywood. Create a problem and then be the solution. 90% of all male and female viewers want to be entertained and enthralled in a good story. The rest is the 10% hateful and spiteful people that hate regardless of what is put up for show.

Take game of thrones. A worldwide phenomenon - the last generation’s most beloved show that had an arsenal of powerful and empathetic male and female characters. Why were they all so beloved? A good fucking story.

  • Margery Tyrell? Flawed, ambitious, smart and fierce.
  • Cersei? Flawed, loving mother, determined and extremely cunning.
  • Daenerys? Queen of Thorns? Ygritte? Melisandre? Arya? Sansa? Brienne? Talysa? The list goes on and on. Every single female character I could write an essay about. And also, most of the people that survive through game of thrones are the females! Did anyone EVER say ANYTHING about that? Or that Olenna Tyrell says straight out to the audience - almost 4th wall breaking “Do you know why I’ve outlived them all [all the men]? I ignored them!”

Women are cunning and clever, whilst the men were too ambitious and too impulsive. That’s why she outlived them all, and so did most women.

Did a single male fan go berserk? Where was the toxic fandom then?

The toxic fandom starts when the stories turn shit and the creators disrespect the fans. You saw it with Game of Thrones season 8. You saw it with Star Wars The Last Jedi. You saw it with The Witcher.

Why were these stories so good and beloved at a time? A good fucking story with three dimensional arcs, and deeply flawed character traits in every single one. And the promotional material? Focused on the STORY and the CHARACTERS. Not on politics, diversity and toxicity.

Why is current Star Wars laughed at and mocked? Because the stories and characters seem to come second. They’re the weakest part of current Star Wars. It’s turned into political statements and self-proclaimed diversity heroes rather than filmmakers and storytellers.

It’s not because of a gender or diversity. The only PROBLEM with those two is that it’s the only narrative spun to try and justify the negative reactions to their absolute trash execution of the last 10 years of storytelling (generalized).

Nobody and their aunt gives a fuck about the gender on screen. Literally nobody. Here in Europe we’re mostly completely baffled by the insanity in how this is the presented narrative abroad. It’s actually insanity. Insanity!

Write a good fucking story, listen to feedback from ALL parts of the fandom and write compelling character arcs that are planned and executed; characters with huge flaws, very specific character traits and let them all FAIL, together and alone, regardless of any background, gender or skin color. Let them all struggle, and unite, and overcome.

Strong male and female characters is a complete diversion, just like the ancient “Best Actress/Best Male Actor” categories. You have strong characters, and you have good actors. All the rest is noise.

I totally agree. If what you said happened in the current shows, there wouldn’t be any strange controversy, only the points concerning the stories would be discussed. In my opinion, the heavy insertion of political agendas into products is destroying the world of entertainment in general, not just Star Wars. A lot of people just want to relax and watch something cool, and fantasy/sci-fi stories should be that escapism for people from the crap that goes on in the world every day, not a constant reminder. I saw the first two episodes and thought they were ok, but this third one was a big no for me.

I can’t understand why everything you said isn’t a consensus, since it’s basic logic for good stories to be told, but whatever. Each with their own points of view.

Edit: I saw here that I was banned, sorry for breaking the rule about politics. I really hadn’t noticed this rule. But, rules are rules, and I agree and understand the ban 100%. May the force be with you

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Tobar said:

Rule 4: No politics; only light discussion of current events is permitted, and only in the Off Topic section.

Let’s keep the discussion focused on the series itself. If not the thread can/will be locked and offenders will be issued temp bans.

Forum Moderator
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I’m not sure to what extent the show wants us to sympathize with Mae. If the Jedi were somehow responsible (either directly or indirectly) for the death of all those witches, it makes it easier to sympathize with Mae’s desire for revenge. But we also see that Mae was always kind of psychotic and had severe abandonment issues: she sort of torments this small animal for fun, and then later flips out and tries to murder her sister (assuming that actually happened as depicted).

It’s the same problem with how Anakin was depicted in the Prequels. We’re supposed to sympathize at least somewhat with him before he eventually turns evil, but even early on he’s already kind of unhinged and then slaughters an entire village.

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Tobar said:

Tobar said:

Rule 4: No politics; only light discussion of current events is permitted, and only in the Off Topic section.

Let’s keep the discussion focused on the series itself. If not the thread can/will be locked and offenders will be issued temp bans.

I’m a little confused.

Hatred for the colour of a person’s skin is not politics. It is racism and hatred. That is not political.

The same applies to homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance. It is hatred.

None of it is political. Politicised, for sure. Incorrectly labelled as “political agendas” to give the ignorance some sort of “legitimacy”, “acceptance” or a platform, also for sure. But it is not political.

It is simply and purely hate and ignorance.

So why is it deemed “political” on here? Is there a post or thread on here that explains that in more detail?

I don’t mean to derail the thread, and would like to continue on just the series itself. There was some posts with suggestions where to continue such discussions but they’ve since been deleted, so I guess they weren’t okay? Is there a relevant thread where to discuss this, or is already being discussed?

Or is it a “that’s just the way it is” thing? And don’t talk about the issues of race, sex, gender, homophobia, transphobia etc in here?

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Some people consider it political to give minorities representation or to call out racists.

Sad world.

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rocknroll41 said:

Sideburns of BoShek said:

I found it thoroughly entertaining, if unexpected, and slowly revealing both the mystery and the answers. A little like:

 
For anyone looking for some non-toxic YouTubers talking about The Acolyte; while having balanced discussions; praise, flaws, criticisms, what worked & what didn’t, as well as aspects they enjoyed or liked, or where they think future episodes may go:

Mainly Breakdown Videos:

ScreenCrush: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLDVUo0d8uHheoSOkZDx3pAxP5TbXrwHdv
Heavy Spoilers: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGC5wT7cYxYUjnX2kG584Al6jZH6_B4nC
CinePals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1iFrkrLXwI
New Rockstars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsdheMKN4oc
Reel Rejects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zux0GH4MA8I
Corey’s Datapad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFdfhvK6v7o&list=PLsBzKyQ6EH-VI2SUAP5YNLVOwi3uLmzm2&index=4
Star Wars Fanatic: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTiIzqijSPCe13CQE6mmk7qcFiNn3Vc5j
Star Wars Explained (a little bland for me, although I can see why so popular): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJi6c1bHRE4
What The Force (podcast): https://whattheforce.ca (credit to KumoNin for the suggestion)

Mainly Reaction Videos:

StruggleNation: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRURips3qv-TrxsZt-Oz0H0ix7-Mng84y
Kyle Katarn: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEeI7MyP8QuLV0i7w1ZUVUKUSu8JjXTO6
LouiseJulie: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT798_VVJTLfCAOpE2N7hJxObI2JnhO5Y
Nerdy Nightly: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvahTXNi_Ea0gnSM_4Z8GERmesxd7sXNj
Heroes Reforged: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgg_dS3XFBim81DyPq5YG1KcHwahe_84q
sesskasays: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzXdyoq6SmsqfhNzU7Anc4tuVS7J1bWmO
Wave Squadron: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5Ejcb5no0KwoGuncTh-I_Y0x-zEo3ql7
Remote Rebels: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL07Y8s2oWyAvMnS-CUi1UcbS0ca-Di51m
Jedi Jive: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZif8ENrpW7wkVFU1ksG4hHmspG9xxLmN
Late to the Party: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrOFRkMEjFp1Bi-NTX0B-aIJQVq8NqStq
Jessie Gender: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp2EuUJQ2uCOrAbnXl66a7CyVfD-brVnQ
emme reacts: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaQZmg8DbvNY9TNZr5Cc5OcaOdVirBfSk

Looking forward to seeing Acolyte content from the following:

TrashCompactor: https://www.youtube.com/@trashcompod/videos
HelloGreedo: https://www.youtube.com/@HelloGreedo/videos
Watch with Marcella: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLeIbetXaQDPPKHe97W5E2NY63VPxaIRgw
Kim Ellendale: https://www.youtube.com/@KimEllendale/videos
Media Musings: https://www.youtube.com/@Media-Musings/videos
The Normies: https://www.youtube.com/@Thenormies/playlists
Laura Reactions: https://www.youtube.com/@LauraReactions/videos
rocknroll41: https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com
 

I hope anyone interested finds something they like, or astute, or just fun. More like-minded channels are out there!

If anyone has any suggestions of channels or podcasts etc to be added to the above list please post them in here or PM me.

Thank you very much for including me here! I really appreciate it!

I’m starting to think that acolyte would work better as a binging show, rather than week to week. I’m gonna wait until it’s over before I watch the rest, I think.

That said, it could still end up being my favorite sw show (depending on how it ends).

Nah, man. Thank you for the blog. I enjoy reading it, though I often forget about such platforms over time. I remembered seeing a similar list of balanced non-toxic channels on r/Andor, so thought I’d give it a try on here for this. It has certainly helped de-clog my YouTube feed that was once full of FandomMenace, toxic, and rage4hate type videos covering Star Wars that YouTube’s algorithm really likes to promote.

And I’ve learnt of a few new channels. Not all of them great (to me personally), but hopefully something for everyone.

Interesting point about The Acolyte maybe being better suited to binge watching. Given the non-linear approach of the series so far, and that we may get another flashback/Rashomon episode or a good amount of scenes from a different POV, soon.

Either way the show goes, or how it is thought of the at the end of its run, it has engaged me so far. Which a welcome plus, despite a few clunky moments and iffy dialogue.

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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Lexa C said:

Tobar said:

Tobar said:

Rule 4: No politics; only light discussion of current events is permitted, and only in the Off Topic section.

Let’s keep the discussion focused on the series itself. If not the thread can/will be locked and offenders will be issued temp bans.

I’m a little confused.

Hatred for the colour of a person’s skin is not politics. It is racism and hatred. That is not political.

The same applies to homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance. It is hatred.

None of it is political. Politicised, for sure. Incorrectly labelled as “political agendas” to give the ignorance some sort of “legitimacy”, “acceptance” or a platform, also for sure. But it is not political.

It is simply and purely hate and ignorance.

So why is it deemed “political” on here? Is there a post or thread on here that explains that in more detail?

I don’t mean to derail the thread, and would like to continue on just the series itself. There was some posts with suggestions where to continue such discussions but they’ve since been deleted, so I guess they weren’t okay? Is there a relevant thread where to discuss this, or is already being discussed?

Or is it a “that’s just the way it is” thing? And don’t talk about the issues of race, sex, gender, homophobia, transphobia etc in here?

Well, some political ideologies incorporate racism. Like National Socialism (Nazism) - it’s a political ideology, but it’s also based on racism. I agree that Nazism is basically just hatred and ignorance at the end of the day. But strictly in terms of semantics/definitions, it’s also a political ideology (that thankfully has mostly been consigned to the dustbin of history). I think because historically racism has been a facet of many political ideologies (from Nazi Germany to the American South), we tend to think of it as part of the political domain.

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Lexa C said:

Tobar said:

Tobar said:

Rule 4: No politics; only light discussion of current events is permitted, and only in the Off Topic section.

Let’s keep the discussion focused on the series itself. If not the thread can/will be locked and offenders will be issued temp bans.

I’m a little confused.

Hatred for the colour of a person’s skin is not politics. It is racism and hatred. That is not political.

The same applies to homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance. It is hatred.

None of it is political. Politicised, for sure. Incorrectly labelled as “political agendas” to give the ignorance some sort of “legitimacy”, “acceptance” or a platform, also for sure. But it is not political.

It is simply and purely hate and ignorance.

So why is it deemed “political” on here? Is there a post or thread on here that explains that in more detail?

I don’t mean to derail the thread, and would like to continue on just the series itself. There was some posts with suggestions where to continue such discussions but they’ve since been deleted, so I guess they weren’t okay? Is there a relevant thread where to discuss this, or is already being discussed?

Or is it a “that’s just the way it is” thing? And don’t talk about the issues of race, sex, gender, homophobia, transphobia etc in here?

As always, if you want to discuss such topics you’re free to discuss them over in the Off Topic section of the forum. This is the Star Wars section of the forum and thus meant for discussing Star Wars. Anything else is a distraction.

The discourse in this thread has up to now been far more pleasant and cordial compared to most other corners of the internet and speaks well of our community. Let’s try to keep it that way and this thread on topic. Any more discussion of anything not related to the topic of this thread will result in an immediate ban.

Forum Moderator
Author
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 (Edited)

Tobar said:

Lexa C said:

Tobar said:

Tobar said:

Rule 4: No politics; only light discussion of current events is permitted, and only in the Off Topic section.

Let’s keep the discussion focused on the series itself. If not the thread can/will be locked and offenders will be issued temp bans.

I’m a little confused.

Hatred for the colour of a person’s skin is not politics. It is racism and hatred. That is not political.

The same applies to homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance. It is hatred.

None of it is political. Politicised, for sure. Incorrectly labelled as “political agendas” to give the ignorance some sort of “legitimacy”, “acceptance” or a platform, also for sure. But it is not political.

It is simply and purely hate and ignorance.

So why is it deemed “political” on here? Is there a post or thread on here that explains that in more detail?

I don’t mean to derail the thread, and would like to continue on just the series itself. There was some posts with suggestions where to continue such discussions but they’ve since been deleted, so I guess they weren’t okay? Is there a relevant thread where to discuss this, or is already being discussed?

Or is it a “that’s just the way it is” thing? And don’t talk about the issues of race, sex, gender, homophobia, transphobia etc in here?

As always, if you want to discuss such topics you’re free to discuss them over in the Off Topic section of the forum. This is the Star Wars section of the forum and thus meant for discussing Star Wars. Anything else is a distraction.

The discourse in this thread has up to now been far more pleasant and cordial compared to most other corners of the internet and speaks well of our community. Let’s try to keep it that way and this thread on topic. Any more discussion of anything not related to the topic of this thread will result in an immediate ban.

Thank you and I agree, it is more pleasant and cordial in here.

Although is there a specific thread in “Off Topic” that already discusses these issues, to look at and learn from, and explains why racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance and hate falls into the bracket of being “politics” on here?

(“Off Topic” is 3 big sections of the site and I’m struggling to find such a thread so far. Can you point to the thread, or threads, or a “general discussion thread” that covers the above, please? The usually superb and helpful “Index & Help” threads don’t appear to list any?)

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Lexa C said:

Thank you and I agree, it is more pleasant and cordial in here.

Although is there a specific thread in “Off Topic” that already discusses these issues, to look at and learn from, and explains why racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance and hate falls into the bracket of being “politics” on here?

I don’t believe anyone has claimed racism, homophobia, transphobia, or sexism are political. That’s just simple hatred and bigotry.

What is political are topics like racial justice, representation and diversity. None of which belong in this section of the forum. But are welcome topics to be discussed in the Off Topic section.

Feel free to start a thread about any and all of them in the appropriate section of the forum. Unfortunately I did give fair warning about derailing this thread further so that will have to wait until at least a week from today.

Forum Moderator
Author
Time

Tobar said:

Lexa C said:

Thank you and I agree, it is more pleasant and cordial in here.

Although is there a specific thread in “Off Topic” that already discusses these issues, to look at and learn from, and explains why racism, homophobia, transphobia, sexism or other such similar ignorance and hate falls into the bracket of being “politics” on here?

I don’t believe anyone has claimed racism, homophobia, transphobia, or sexism are political. That’s just simple hatred and bigotry.

What is political are topics like racial justice, representation and diversity. None of which belong in this section of the forum. But are welcome topics to be discussed in the Off Topic section.

Feel free to start a thread about any and all of them in the appropriate section of the forum. Unfortunately I did give fair warning about derailing this thread further so that will have to wait until at least a week from today.

You banned her for that? What the hell, man? She wasn’t derailing the thread, she was simply asking you, as a site moderator, if you could link to an existing thread in Off Topic to read up on the subject that you mentioned, in more detail, to continue the conversation in the very place you told her to. Yet she was obviously struggling to find such a thread where you told her to go.

“Don’t tell anyone… but when ‘Star Wars’ first came out, I didn’t know where it was going either. The trick is to pretend you’ve planned the whole thing out in advance. Throw in some father issues and references to other stories - let’s call them homages - and you’ve got a series.” - George Lucas

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She was given a temp ban of a week for failure to remain on topic after a clear warning of such a consequence would follow for anyone failing to do so. It’s not a hard request.

Forum Moderator
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New post up on my blog regarding the acolyte (and the state of the franchise in general):

https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-acolyte-past-present-future-of-star.html?m=1

My blog: https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/
My books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B08SLGZJ11
My bandcamp: https://nunohenrysilva.bandcamp.com/
My SoundCloud: https://m.soundcloud.com/user-327161148
My playlists: https://m.youtube.com/@nunohenrysilva/playlists
My Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/user/goldendreamseeker/submitted/

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rocknroll41 said:

New post up on my blog regarding the acolyte (and the state of the franchise in general):

https://henrynsilva.blogspot.com/2024/06/the-acolyte-past-present-future-of-star.html?m=1

Nice summation and without Hyperbole, but you didn’t mention Willow the tv series being erased from existence or Dial of Destiny flopping. And I disagree on Solo, I feel like Alden didn’t at all come off as Harrison. What Disney needs is a Star Wars film in the cinema that breaks a billion at the box office. If Dial can fail and Harrison was in it, what does that say about Lucasfilm? The same actor who was a draw when they made Force Awakens, couldn’t get people to see the 5th Indiana Jones film. And also the Rey movie isn’t going to have Harrison or Mark or Carrie to carry it, we shall see what the box office says on that one if it ever gets released.

As for the Acolyte itself I just got into the older shows on disc, when is Disney going to put out Mando season 3 and Ahsoka? Because I would have to sign up for Plus and other than some of the cartoon shows and maybe Light and Magic it doesn’t seem like all that good a deal at the price point for no ads.