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StarWarsLegacy.com - The Official Thread — Page 56

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It's interesting what Mike said about the danger of releasing the Legacy edition. It's as if Lucasfilm have been keeping an eye on the fan restorations up to now but generally letting them pass. Then Mike appears and they start to get a sense that this effort might just trump what a multi-billion dollar company can release with access to the best negatives and the best scanning equipment and you'd presume the best people on the job.

I'll echo the sentiment that if the theatrical editions appear on HD and 4K blu-ray and are of a noticeably inferior or revised quality to the Legacy edition or Harmy's, I say we get vocal about it and assure people that this is yet another ruined chance to obtain what the audiences saw thirty years ago and in turn, a piece of cinema history.

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Well, it's really gonna say something if the "best" they can do gets outclassed by a bunch of fans with film scanners and off-the-shelf hardware.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Limitations breed innovation. If there's no route to a $5,000,000 film scanner for us mere fans, someone is gonna have the bright idea of utilising a digital SLR camera and a myriad of sprocket guides and motors and construct a proof of concept for $500.

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SVHS said:

It's interesting what Mike said about the danger of releasing the Legacy edition. It's as if Lucasfilm have been keeping an eye on the fan restorations up to now but generally letting them pass. 

 Legacy seems to be a unique case. From what I can tell, Mike knows or is in contact with people at Lucasfilm and folks who worked on the original SW, and he has discussed Legacy with them. He also has had access to archive materials (at some point, at least).

I'm sure the overall quality of Mike's work indeed makes it more of a commercial concern. But as far as awareness of the project goes, it seems like he directly told the people who would be in a position to caution him. 

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Then the question is... what is the Legacy Edition to Lucasfilm and Disney?

Put aside questions of it being released for now.

Is Legacy a proof of concept for just how good you bring the theatrical editions up to standard. Keeping in mind this is by definition a fan restoration which makes it all the more wild.

Is it, for lack of a better phrase, an audition tape so that Mike can get the commission for the trilogy and at that point utilise their best elements and scans. Maybe even work with a small team (under careful supervision of course).

Is it, when completed, able to be utilised as is for HD and 4K blu-rays which there is no doubt as Mike is working with a 16-bit 4K scan (I think). This would mean Star Wars would be presented and derived from an unofficial scan but there's no worries quality-wise judging from the samples posted up so far.

All in all, this edition has gotta appear and it'd be really nice and a real testament to the love and work put in by fans if they were able to step forward and say here's the theatrical editions that we grew up with and it was made possible by both Lucasfilm and the fans.

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I know this is a little off topic but given Mike's last big post I figured I should share this upcoming Star Wars Celebration panel:

Star Wars Original Props and Costumes

Sat. April 18| 3:00 PM - 4:00 PM | Collectors Stage – 210AB

Experience the stories behind the discovery and preservation of the most amazing film-used original Star Wars props and costumes in private hands! Featuring in-depth spotlight discussions about key props and collections, slideshows filled with newly uncovered production artifacts, and the chance to ask questions of the panelists, this presentation is not to be missed! Sharing their decades of experience will be collectors Brandon Alinger and Stephen Lane, of the Prop Store's LA and London offices, Star Wars collector Gus Lopez, and Tom Spina, effects artist and movie prop conservation and display specialist.

Definitely something worth checking out if anyone else here will be in attendance.

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SVHS said:

Then the question is... what is the Legacy Edition to Lucasfilm and Disney?

Put aside questions of it being released for now.

Is Legacy a proof of concept for just how good you bring the theatrical editions up to standard. Keeping in mind this is by definition a fan restoration which makes it all the more wild.

Is it, for lack of a better phrase, an audition tape so that Mike can get the commission for the trilogy and at that point utilise their best elements and scans. Maybe even work with a small team (under careful supervision of course).

Is it, when completed, able to be utilised as is for HD and 4K blu-rays which there is no doubt as Mike is working with a 16-bit 4K scan (I think). This would mean Star Wars would be presented and derived from an unofficial scan but there's no worries quality-wise judging from the samples posted up so far.

All in all, this edition has gotta appear and it'd be really nice and a real testament to the love and work put in by fans if they were able to step forward and say here's the theatrical editions that we grew up with and it was made possible by both Lucasfilm and the fans.

 Honestly, if it's either of the last two, it would make one hell of a story if these happened.

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What I kind of find surprising is that people are surprised that a 'fan' can do a better job of restoration than a company with (seemingly) endless resources.

The truth is that a fan with the right background and training would often be capable of doing a 'better' or to be more accurate, a more 'genuine' job when restoring a film.

The tools that the pros use are available or can be programmed, film scanning, though hideously expensive (I just got a quote of USD$25,000 for two hours of 35mm to be scanned) is available.

The main differences between a Disney restoration and a fan restoration are mostly twofold.

1) Familiarity with the source. A Disney employee may have a deep understanding of the film, or a passing interest. They may have been alive and immersed in film in the 1970s or they may not have been born in the 1970s. They may have access to original costumes and models, or may have never seen them.

The 'fan' might be old enough to have experienced the 70s films and aesthetic at the time of release (I sadly am more than old enough), have spent more hours than is sane watching the films *on film* and spent 1000s hours pouring over models, costumes and reference materials. They can remember the experience in the cinema, the way the audience gasped and cheered and stood and applauded. Where they laughed and where the cinema was dead silent with anticipation. They have viewed every damn frame of the film countless times, and sometimes are surprised to realise that there is no audio, as they have been hearing it even when playing back the sequences in silence. They know every character, every blink, every nuance of the film. This makes a difference. They know just how important to the story that little flash of colour on the stormtrooper's costume is. They know that the snaking cable at the corner of shot should be hidden in shadow, and that the highlights should be singing in Carrie's eyes.  They know the film, on a level that is hard to understand if you haven't been living in its frames for the last decade or so. You won't make the mistake of balancing out the blue-green of the Death Star's walls to a neutral grey.
It isn't just another cleanup job that you have been assigned to for the next two months.

2) Time.
Stupidly large amounts of soul eating time.
The fan has the ability to spend a day, a week, a month, two months on a 10 second sequence. And then revisit it again later when a new technique gets invented for a different sequence that may give a better result on an old one. You get to agonise over whether the smearing on the stars in the background in this shot is lens coma (leave it in) or channel misalignment (take it out). You get to experiment with techniques like image stacking, deconvolution, light diffraction remodelling and other tools that come from diverse image processing fields, but aren't in the standard 'film repair' product ranges.
Also time to track down people and references and write programs and source equipment etc. etc.

None of this time is really available to a company, no matter how much they love the film. It just isn't economically viable, and has limited usefulness to the general movie buying public. How many customers will really care that the starfield is misaligned by half a pixel, or that the colour of the wires inside Threepio's torso are not consistent from shot to shot?
It just isn't worth it, even to a company like Criterion to spend years on this stuff.

So in short, with the right background, horrible amounts of time, a good skillset, a bit of luck, and flushing most your spare money down the toilet, you can surpass some of the best restorations out there, you just have to give up a large chunk of your income and spare time to it, know what you are doing, know what you don't know, learn, improve and work damn hard.

And have a bit of luck :)

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
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Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

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^This.

And, in this capacity, I'm not a fan; I'm a professional - I've been doing this for 20+ years plus, creating/preparing/restoring assets for marquee commercial projects. Legacy could absolutely be taken straight from my workstation to distribution, and at the minimum is superior to the current Blu-Ray... not that this is hard to do, obviously. :)  But these facts are also why Legacy might garner somewhat more scrutiny.  

But as it is, this thread is 11 years old. And in all that time, what's kept the project alive and prospering is the fact that I have kept it behind the walls. It drives people crazy; it drives me crazy.  I've been called all kinds of names.  The only thing I've been more committed to than keeping it safe is being committed to the work.  And the only thing I've been more committed to than the work is a deeply-held belief that all of this effort spent over all of these years will one day see the light of day.  When Legacy is finished, I will be contacting my friends at both Disney and Lucasfilm.

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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Yes, it helps if the 'fan' also happens to come from the industry, hence my use of single quotes around the term.

For example I work almost purely in log, and in the DCI-P3 colourspace as I want to keep the option of going back out to film and DCP at the forefront of my work,

I know Mike also works in processes designed to be able to go straight out to any current distribution format, whether it be cinema or home video.

Interestingly though, I believe it also helps if you are not just from the restoration industry, a background in FX, lens knowledge, film processing, on-set experience etc. all helps you to make an informed choice when evaluating a film source, and working out just why it is how it is, and how it 'should' be.

It is an area where being a bit of a journeyman can be more useful at times than being a narrow specialist. I don't know about Mike, but I am often blown away by the feedback from guys on the forum, that pick up the strangest little details or make suggestions that end up being quite useful.

Anyway, enough of my derailing rantings, I need to go earn some money to buy more HDDs :)

Donations welcome: paypal.me/poit
bitcoin:13QDjXjt7w7BFiQc4Q7wpRGPtYKYchnm8x
Help get The Original Trilogy preserved!

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Yes I have found the incredible depth of detail knowledge and hawk-like eyes of people here and on the Legacy site to be an amazing resource.  Nothing gets by the group's scrutiny.  My personal feeling is that if Legacy can make it here, it can make it anywhere. :)

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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Yeah, getting feedback directly from the fans of the movie is probably the best possible form of QC. Maybe the studios should try that approach.

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SVHS said:

It's very surreal to think about. It reminds me of a few years back when fans were transferring unplayed vinyl boxsets of Beatles albums and very, very carefully restoring them so that they reproduced the warmth, EQ and general ambience of the vinyl editions in a digital format.

The Beatles remasters were released in 2009 but boy, there was heated arguments about how invasive the noise reduction was, how harsh the compression was and whether or not background errors like chairs and sniffs should've been edited out or left in. In a way, we got revisions, rather than a restoration much like the trilogy. I mean, for pities sake, they took away the crackle on John's wail during 'She's So Heavy', a crackle that was proven to be part of the original vocal take and not an error during the final mix as it can be heard in the isolated vocals of the multi-tracks.

So, yeah, it seems the fans have created the best quality versions of Star Wars available and may well be able to hold that title forever.

Mike, it's up to you to make them see sense...

Now you're talking about something I know something about. Dr Ebbetts, Mirror Spock and the Millennium Remasters series ALL added EQ to their releases, each trying to out-treble the other, and not of it is any good.

As for the crackle in John's voice, it was not present in the original vinyl copies of the album. It wasn't until the Harry T. Moss remasters (which the original CDs are based from) that that error crept in. The crackle was re-simulated in the Rockband multis.

-G

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Would that not indicate that the 2009 version is, in that one respect at least, an improvement?

Oh geez. Don't tell me we need a Beatles albums preservation thread.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Molly said:

Would that not indicate that the 2009 version is, in that one respect at least, an improvement?

 Not to mention that the 2009 releases brought back mono versions of everything that was originally mixed in mono.

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towne32 said:

Molly said:

Would that not indicate that the 2009 version is, in that one respect at least, an improvement?

 Not to mention that the 2009 releases brought back mono versions of everything that was originally mixed in mono.

 but only if you got the rare mono set, of course

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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timdiggerm said:

towne32 said:

Molly said:

Would that not indicate that the 2009 version is, in that one respect at least, an improvement?

 Not to mention that the 2009 releases brought back mono versions of everything that was originally mixed in mono.

 but only if you got the rare mono set, of course

I don't know about the CDs, but if they're that rare I'm sure they're easily 'obtained'. They sell and continue to press the "new" mono releases individually on vinyl, though. 

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They are insanely easy to obtain in lossless quality on certain sites of a certain questionable legal status. 

What’s the internal temperature of a TaunTaun? Luke warm.

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Molly said:

Would that not indicate that the 2009 version is, in that one respect at least, an improvement?

Oh geez. Don't tell me we need a Beatles albums preservation thread.

Most of the work is already done. Japanese Red Wax Mono FTW. PBTHAL FTW.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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AntcuFaalb said:

Molly said:

Would that not indicate that the 2009 version is, in that one respect at least, an improvement?

Oh geez. Don't tell me we need a Beatles albums preservation thread.

Most of the work is already done. Japanese Red Wax Mono FTW. PBTHAL FTW.

 Those are nice! Pbthal does do some clean-up on his stuff, and I've called him out on some that I felt were too revisionist, but he's a great ripper on the whole. I actually slightly prefer his rips of the most recent mono set. Check 'em out!

Sorry Mike!

-G

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Nah, a little Beatles derailment never hurt anybody. 

However, there is a new BTS on clean-up in the Legacy forums if you want to get back on topic. :)

View the Restoration and join the discussion at StarWarsLegacy.com!

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mverta said:

Nah, a little Beatles derailment never hurt anybody. 

However, there is a new BTS on clean-up in the Legacy forums if you want to get back on topic. :)

 I do. Headed over there now!

-G

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SVHS said:

I'll echo the sentiment that if the theatrical editions appear on HD and 4K blu-ray and are of a noticeably inferior or revised quality to the Legacy edition or Harmy's, I say we get vocal about it and assure people that this is yet another ruined chance to obtain what the audiences saw thirty years ago and in turn, a piece of cinema history.

I should clarify what I meant. Regardless of whether they release just the SE, they don't want it to look worse than what is being shown by Mike. Mike isn't showing the full resolution, but he's showing the shots looking amazing - clean, graded, and free from DVNR or sharpening. SE or OOT they should want the quality to at least match what we're seeing from Mike.

[ Scanning stuff since 2015 ]

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That's the thing though. Mverta is restoring the film out of love. An official restoration is going to be a "corporate" restoration.