Star Wars Canon EU (potential spoilers) — Page 3

I think a combination of the old Marvel run (the hunting down of leads and a long quest) coupled with his reaction to learning the name in the new Marvel run would be best.

I feel like the way it was handled in the new Marvel run was just a lame excuse to shoehorn Boba Fett in because he hadn’t been in much of the new canon yet, and Boba wasn’t great in those issues.

Lord Haseo said:

Boba was actually better in the comics than he ever was in the OT. Tracking the Millennium Falcon was cool but other than that Boba was about as lethal as a Storm Trooper in ESB and ROTJ.

Eh. Boba to me was never about killing everyone all the time just because. To me it was about the threat that he could.

That whole cantina scene was silly to me. Boba just wrecking shit and making a huge spectacle of himself while completely losing his cool is #NotMyBoba.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Tyrphanax said:

That whole cantina scene was silly to me. Boba just wrecking shit and making a huge spectacle of himself while completely losing his cool is #NotMyBoba.

I agree. I’ve always pictured Boba as the SW equivalent of The Man with No Name – calm, cool and collected.

Exactly. That’s exactly what Boba Fett is to me. He doesn’t always have to kick your ass to have kicked your ass.

DuracellEnergizer said:

DominicCobb said:

Tobar said:

Lord Haseo said:

I think they handled it pretty well despite the shitty premise. The “duel” would have been less than 10 seconds if it were in film or TV and it sewed the seeds of Vader finding out he had a son. Though he could have found that out some other way such as having looking at Luke through a security recording and seeing his old lightsaber and putting two and two together later on.

Meh, it was awful. Vader’s quest for the pilot who destroyed the Death Star in the original Marvel run was pretty epic. Through multiple issues he hunted down any leads he could find to discover the name of the pilot before he finally succeeded:

Very cool but a bit of a continuity snag in hindsight as Vader’s reaction isn’t quite what it would be considering the revelations of certain film yet to be released at the time.

Well, there is also Dark Horse’s version of how Vader discovered Luke’s identity. In that story, Vader goes into a batshit homicidal panic attack when he learns the news.

I think I prefer Marvel’s original version.

Wait, wasn’t the Marvel comics officially part of the EU even when Dark Horse had the comic licence? So how can there be two versions?

(PS I wasn’t even born on the 70’s, and apart from the slightly off “narration”, I much prefer the Marvel version. Also I hate how the post ROTS Vader always has to throw a tantrum over everything, I much prefer the calmer Vader from the 70’s.)

Lord Haseo said:

Compared to Kylo Ren’s outbursts Vader cracking glass of a Star Destroyer doesn’t really count as a tantrum. Also Vader wouldn’t just shrug off at the fact he has a son. That’s just not who he is.

Well, “tantrum” might have been a poor choice of words, but it is a bit too similar to the end of ROTS for my taste. One of he things that I liked with old EU stories is that they would acknowledge Vader’s feelings, but without having him smash stuff in the process (SOTE is a good example of this). He tended to keep it to himself.
I personally just find the more ambiguous pre-PT Vader more interesting. But I do agree that Vader’s reaction in the old Marvel comics is, retroactively, somewhat bland. But even that reaction is up for interpretation.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

One of he things that I liked with old EU stories is that they would acknowledge Vader’s feelings, but without having him smash stuff in the process (SOTE is a good example of this). He tended to keep it to himself.

I think it depends on the situation. Finding out that your Master lied to you about killing your pregnant wife and kids is something that warrants some anger. Visible anger. No one other than a droid would be able to hold that in.

You know I could be cheeky and simply write “he’s more machine than man, now”, but I more or less agree with you. Smashing the bridge of a Star Destroyer however just seems a tad silly and reckless to me, and as I mentioned, a bit too obviously taken from ROTS. I probably would have preferred him to maybe choke someone over a tiny mistake or something like that, or maybe just growl at people like he did at the end of ESB (pre-SE). Something to visualize/illustrate his anger without smashing stuff around him. Had it been a novel I think I’d simply preferred a description of his frustration/anger/etc. (maybe him snapping at some officers, etc.), but I understand that a comic needs to visualize this anger. This new version however just has too much of a Hayden-Anakin-vibe for me.
I’m not really saying it’s terrible, I just find it to be a bit too much.

I also feel that it’s very important that Vader at this point in his life is pretty emotionless and machine-like. He has after all been Vader for almost 20 years at this point. And keep in mind that this is the Vader that killed his old master and friend without any hesitation what-so-ever. Finding out about Luke should be not so much an explosion of feelings, but rather a tiny crack in his emotional barrier which gradually grows over the course of the next-few-years/movies. Even in ESB, a few years later he’s still emotionally cold enough to cut his own son’s hand off, and when he actually thinks he’s died, he only grows a bit at his men. And when Luke actually drops into the abyss his reaction is surprisingly neutral, disappointment at most. It’s not really until ROTJ that he’s starting to show real emotions. That crack has had plenty of time to grow in those years.

(PS, my first statement about Vader throwing tantrums wasn’t directed at this comic in specific, I just find a lot of the post ROTS Vader stories to be kind of annoying. Even the Dark Horse comics over-used ROTS references for several years. (Seriously, for a couple of years every Vader comic I read had him experience random flash-backs to Padme. I get that they wanted to acknowledge the PT, but it got tiresome really fast, and it did make Vader seem like an moody teenager). Over-all I think Disney is actually doing it pretty well so far. Although I haven’t seen any episodes of Rebels, I did read somewhere that they were told to not humanize Vader since it was pre-ESB/ROTJ, and that he should more-or-less just be a cold-hearted killing machine.)

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

But even that reaction is up for interpretation.

It was released pre ESB, was it not? If so then it shouldn’t be. At that time Vader was just a one dimensional (but great) baddie. He wasn’t like the Vader of ESB and ROTJ and Kylo Ren.

Totally, what I meant was that it was ambiguous enough to be interpreted from a post-ESB standpoint, hence I don’t need to alter anything in my personal head-canon.
But yes, it was definitely intended to be the pre-Luke’s-father, purely an evil guy, Vader.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I probably would have preferred him to maybe choke someone over a tiny mistake or something like that, or maybe just growl at people like he did at the end of ESB (pre-SE).Something to visualize/illustrate his anger without smashing stuff around him.

I would rather him hack someone to bits with his lightsaber or break someone’s neck. Something more brutal to show that this isn’t generic Vader rage but something more

Maybe, it just seems savage even for Vader as far a I’m concerned. Vader used to be tactical and patient, sure he killed a lot of his own men in the OT, but never out of rage. Yes, finding out about Luke is different, I just don’t see the adult Vader doing a Anakin/Kylo moment. Maybe early days Vader, but not post ANH Vader. I feel that with someone like Vader, even if he simply killed an officer for a less-serious mistake than usual that it could convey that he was holding in a lot of frustration and anger.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I also feel that it’s very important that Vader at this point in his life is pretty emotionless and machine-like. He has after all been Vader for almost 20 years at this point. And keep in mind that this is the Vader that killed his old master and friend without any hesitation what-so-ever.

He hated Obi-Wan though…

Yeah, that’s true.
I’ll retract that observation.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Finding out about Luke should be not so much an explosion of feelings, but rather a tiny crack in his emotional barrier which gradually grows over the course of the next-few-years/movies.

If anything finding out Ahsoka was alive would do this minus the gradual growing. Family bonds are different.

I guess. But did he really care for Luke prior to ROTJ? Maybe he did, I just never got that impression. He seemed more interested in killing the Emperor with his help at first. I just don’t really see Vader caring for anyone that much at this stage. Even in ROTJ his immediate reaction to learning about Leia, without hesitation, was again, turning her to the dark side.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Even in ESB, a few years later he’s still emotionally cold enough to cut his own son’s hand off,

That’s true but he had to because Luke wouldn’t give up.

I dunno, there’s plenty of moments there where he’s just pounding on him with his lightsaber. He even has him sucked out a window. Did he actually predict that he would survive that? But, I’ll concede that this scene probably took some liberties for the sake of making the fight interesting.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

And when Luke actually drops into the abyss his reaction is surprisingly neutral, disappointment at most.

I think he knew fully that Luke would survive somehow and his reaction was just that. Disappointment.

This I just don’t buy, Luke was clearly ready to die there, and I don’ really see how Vader would have known he would survive. Maybe he knew Luke was alive when he growls at the Imperial officer later on, but when Luke fell I don’t see how he’d assume anything other than that his son was falling to his death.

And I personally think that he is, at least consciously, only seeing Luke as an asset at this point.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

It’s not really until ROTJ that he’s starting to show real emotions. That crack has had plenty of time to grow in those years.

Not really. His reaction to the Millennium Falcon escaping at the end of ESB where he turns away then looks back to empty space only to finally walk off is actually telling. Not only that he didn’t even kill the Imperial that failed him. On a side note I can’t believe that scene isn’t up on youtube.

I don’t really see how that’s comparable to finding out about Luke. But still, I honestly wouldn’t have complained if him finding out about Luke had resulted in a similar silent, and in addition, simply thoughtful, kind of a moment.

You know what, I’m not even sure why I’m arguing against this story, I haven’t even read the whole thing, just what I could find online + what’s been posted on the forum. I’m probably just tired of seeing this Vader; https://66.media.tumblr.com/8325f965faf10d6e8fc002f612fee202/tumblr_miznvdiK991rkvurgo1_500.jpg
http://i.stack.imgur.com/R1dGS.jpg
and much prefer the darker and more menacing villain that he used to be. I don’t mind there being emotional depth to the character, I just think that it’s been somewhat cheaply, or at least too “obviously” done in the last ten years.

I think it boils down to why I prefer the original version of the scene in ROTJ where Vader decides to save Luke as opposed to the SE version. The original is subtle, but still conveys great emotional depth. The new version more-or-less does the same, but it’s too blatant and in-your-face.

Good post!

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I probably would have preferred him to maybe choke someone over a tiny mistake or something like that, or maybe just growl at people like he did at the end of ESB (pre-SE).Something to visualize/illustrate his anger without smashing stuff around him.

I would rather him hack someone to bits with his lightsaber or break someone’s neck. Something more brutal to show that this isn’t generic Vader rage but something more

Maybe, it just seems savage even for Vader as far a I’m concerned.

Nothing is too savage for a Sith Lord…

Well, I can’t really argue with that, I just feel that Vader is more tactical than pointlessly brutal.
(Also, as a side-note, I don’t really see what’s so Sith about him, he behaves much more like a dark jedi, but that’s a completely different argument.)

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Vader used to be tactical and patient, sure he killed a lot of his own men in the OT, but never out of rage.

I’m pretty sure his men failing him angered him and that anger is why he killed them.

I’d say it was more his sense of discipline and control. Also killing people like Ozzel was simply tactical. I just don’t see anger in it, but then again I’m seeing this from a pre-PT perspective.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Finding out about Luke should be not so much an explosion of feelings, but rather a tiny crack in his emotional barrier which gradually grows over the course of the next-few-years/movies.

If anything finding out Ahsoka was alive would do this minus the gradual growing. Family bonds are different.

I guess. But did he really care for Luke prior to ROTJ? Maybe he did, I just never got that impression. He seemed more interested in killing the Emperor with his help at first. I just don’t really see Vader caring for anyone that much at this stage.

Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way.

Son, come with me.

Seems pretty personal to me

Again, I’d call it tactical. He’s trying to seduce him to the dark side. Calling him “son” and promising him the death of the emperor, as well as offering him power is all very tactical. I’d hardly call it a heartfelt father-son moment. He’s basically just trying to remedy the situation. (If anything I’d say it’s more akin to the “Dun Möch” thing you brought up further down.)

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Even in ROTJ his immediate reaction to learning about Leia, without hesitation, was again, turning her to the dark side.

I always saw that as Vader trying to draw Luke out of hiding. Vader was proficient in Dun Möch ya know 😉

Fair enough, but I’m not sure if I’m too convinced that Dun Möch was the intention back in 1980. But, yes he was trying to draw Luke out. But if he had such an explosion of emotion finding out about Luke, then isn’t it slightly weird that his immediate though when learning about Leia is to use her as bait.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

This I just don’t buy, Luke was clearly ready to die there, and I don’ really see how Vader would have known he would survive. Maybe he knew Luke was alive when he growls at the Imperial officer later on, but when Luke fell I don’t see how he’d assume anything other than that his son was falling to his death.

Aboard the bridge he instantly know that Luke is alright so the anger stems from Luke slipping through his grasp.

Also he could have known because of precognition just like he knew Luke didn’t fall to his death when he got sucked out of the window.

That’s seem like a bit of a cop out to me.
Also, I wasn’t talking about Vader on the bridge of the Star Destroyer, but a very short moment before when he’s leaving the Carbon Freeze chamber. In the unaltered version of ESB he growls “bring my shuttle” in a clearly angry tone. And outside of any of the fights, it’s the harshest tone he’s ever had in the entire PT.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I don’t really see how that’s comparable to finding out about Luke. But still, I honestly wouldn’t have complained if him finding out about Luke had resulted in a similar silent, and in addition, simply thoughtful, kind of a moment.

I’m not comparing it to anything; I’m just using it as an example of Vader showing emotion pre ROTJ. That’s actually the first genuine emotional moment the audience sees from Vader.

Sure, but even in ANH he does show frustration and even surprise at the end. And this scene really doesn’t convey more than, again, disappointment.

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Lord Haseo said:

ZkinandBonez said:

You know what, I’m not even sure why I’m arguing against this story, I haven’t even read the whole thing, just what I could find online + what’s been posted on the forum. I’m probably just tired of seeing this Vader; https://66.media.tumblr.com/8325f965faf10d6e8fc002f612fee202/tumblr_miznvdiK991rkvurgo1_500.jpg
http://i.stack.imgur.com/R1dGS.jpg
and much prefer the darker and more menacing villain that he used to be. I don’t mind there being emotional depth to the character, I just think that it’s been somewhat cheaply, or at least too “obviously” done in the last ten years.

I think it depends on the timeline. If Vader is still sulking about Padme without provocation (as in having her being brought up) shortly before SW occurs then that would irritate me

Well, that’s kind of my point. Many of these stories that I mentioned were taking place around ANH. One that especially bugged me (and this was before I disliked the PT) showed Vader having a Padme moment right after the Death Star. And she wasn’t brought up, he just saw some woman that looked nothing like her and for some reason the writers decided that this was just what Vader was like now. But I’ll admit that the new Marvel comic in question had a good excuse.

I think we’re both seeing this from two very different perspectives. I see a character that was created and established in the 70’s and 80’s and treat him as such. I keep forgetting that modern SW writers don’t really give a damn about and simply write the character based on a lot of PT-retconning.
So you’re not wrong about him thinking about Padme, or him using Dun Möch, I’m just arguing that it’s not how the original Vader would have behaved.

But how will we ever know if Vader or Boba are feeling emotions if they’re not having an anime-style meltdown!

Subtle emotions are for pretentious artfilm jerks! That’s why adding that “No!” to Vader at the end of Jedi was a masterstroke, now we really know how he felt instead of just guessing like a bunch of idiots!