Star Wars 1977 70mm sound mix recreation [stereo and 5.1 versions now available] (Released) — Page 2

And it is for precisely that reason that I don't believe the list of differences between the 70 and 35mm versions of Empire to be completely accurate.  The 70 was released first, with the 35 having a few additional special effects shots and minor editing differences that were changed afterwards.  So given that, why would several lines of dialogue suddenly go missing from the later version?  Surely it should be the other way around?  I find it counterintuitive to believe that the second mix should released 'less complete'.  The choppy music editing I can almost believe would have been done at a later point, if someone involved in the process decided they didn't like how it sounded in those places as composed (though why they would think that, I have no idea), but really, the whole thing just doesn't make much sense.

Without a proper recording for reference, it would be impossible to make an accurate reproduction of Empire's 70mm mix.  If I were going to do anything with it, I would use the '93 version for its dynamics and just replace the hacked up music cues with the appropriate sections from the SE, since those really do sound better, and possibly insert the missing sound of the snowspeeder crashing, and leave it at that.  The different dialogue just gives me an 'inauthentic' feel every time I hear it, and R2 not tasting very good is funnier anyway.

I'm glad to hear that my edit of the quad laser scene works!  I had some doubts that it was of acceptable quality, but that may have come from listening to it too many times and overanalysing.  It isn't perfect, but it seems to work fine unless you listen really closely and are extraordinarily picky.  ;)

Huzzah, updating my browser sorted out my posting issues.  Teh wootness and stuff.

Every altered sound effect from the DC mix has now been replaced!  One or two may be a bit rougher than I'd like, but they're as good as I can make them, and it sounds great.  There is something thrilling about hearing the film's "true" soundtrack emerge from the layers of revision that have been imposed on it.

All that's left to do is the LFE channel.  I'm going to take a short break to rest my mind and ear before doing that, since it can be a bit wearing listening to the same thing over and over; and I've got a set of Beethoven symphonies conducted by John Eliot Gardiner that just came in the mail demanding my attention, and a half-finished Legend of Zelda story that isn't going to write itself, lol.  But I'll be back on it soon, and it shouldn't be long before this is all finished.  I already have the 2004 LFE track synched up from my previous project, so I just need to synch the 1997 version and decide which bass effects work best for the film.

This is a very interesting project. Nice work, hairy_hen!

Moth3r, I would be very interested in having the comparison track, both for its own sake and to determine if there is anything that I need to re-edit for my version.  By all means please upload it! :)  It's strange how they bothered to mix in something so minor as that water noise when legitimately improved effects such as the mono mix "deceleration" sound when the Falcon comes out of lightspeed are nowhere to be found in the '93.

msycamore: Actually, those scenes weren't all that difficult.  It was only a matter of finding appropriate places to switch--conveniently located sound effects help disguise the transitions.  The dynamics obviously do not reach the levels that they should in the cell bay shootout, but it still sounds good--vastly preferable to those ridiculously loud shattering glass sounds.

I will certainly be uploading the stereo version for anyone who wants it.  I'll most likely save it as a FLAC file and then split it into a few RARs to make the uploading easier, which can then be used as a PCM or high-bitrate AC3 track, whichever is preferred.  This method may yield slightly greater fidelity than what can be had from upmixed 5.1, and would be ideal for those without a surround setup available.

The 5.1 version would be best for those with surround setups, in order to take advantage of the extra bass content.  This is the only real reason to do the upmixing on the computer, since non-standard formats like 2.1 are problematic and the playback results are entirely receiver-dependent.  The bass was an important part of the 70mm theatrical experience, and I would recommend that it be heard this way if possible.

It should be noted that downmixing a previously upmixed surround track back into stereo is not ideal, because the surrounds may have a 20 millisecond delay added to them, which could cause phase issues if combined back with the main channels.  The six-track original wouldn't have this issue, of course, since its mono surround channel would contain discrete effects only.  Upmix results won't be precisely the same--the matrixed surround cues emanate from both rear speakers as they should, but there is also additional stereo ambience derived from the left and right front channels (as well as a bit of unavoidable crosstalk, although much less with modern algorithms than with the original Prologic).

That is a very interesting idea, ABC.  I don't know if I have the necessary skill with audio to make something like that work, but I would like to hear it if someone did.  I've been toying with the idea of making isolated scores sourced from your remastered versions to synch with the dvd's, but that wouldn't be for a while yet.  Some time ago I made an isolated score track for Alien using the Intrada cd release, mostly because I wanted to be able to see the film using the music as composed and not the appalling hackjob of the official mix.  Gave some thought to trying to replace the music in the film itself, too, but it turned out to be rather difficult.  I might go back to it at some point . . .

Anyway, after taking a bit of a break, I've finished with the LFE channel.  All that remains to be done is to make a test file so I can hear the bass effects integrated into the film, and then make any tweaks to the volume levels as needed.  After that I'll upload the files!  Hopefully it won't take long for the 5.1 upmixed version to be made after that.

Synching sound files to each other can be a major pain . . . I'm glad that part is done with.  I ended up using the bass from the 1997 version more often than not, because it usually sounds closer to the original; though there were instances where I thought the 2004 effects sounded better, so occasionally I went with those instead.  There may be a few instances where a particular bass effect was not actually in the original soundtrack, or was mixed differently than either SE version, but I've tried to keep it as authentic as possible in spirit.  The volume levels are basically my best judgement of what sounds right.  Sometimes the SE's have really loud bass in strange places that don't warrant it, and can be surprisingly subdued in others.  In general I've aimed at making the bass powerful, but not to the point of being overwhelmingly loud.

We're nearly there, folks . . . I listened to the test file today and I need to go back and lower the LFE level a bit in a few places--I had overcompensated for the oddly subdued volume sometimes found in the SE's.  The newer versions tend to let their loudest bass impacts come from changed CGI shots or added sound effects; I toned those down considerably and gave the original bass moments greater prominence, but inadvertently overdid it in a couple places.  I haven't been able to turn it up as much as I'd like for fear of disturbing others, so I'll have to check again when I have the place to myself, but even at low volume I could tell I hadn't done it right.  Fortunately, these should be easy enough to fix.

You're right about the 1999 Alien dvd having an isolated score track--but I only have the 2003 version, plus the cd is said to sound better.  ;)

msycamore said: I just hope that ridiculously loud bass when R2 fall down in the canyon isn't included ;)

A 12 decibel reduction takes care of that, no worries.  Just a tiny bit of oomph, instead of a dumpster hitting the ground from ten stories up. ;)  I don't mind that sort of thing in recent films, but the aural aesthetic of Star Wars doesn't support an overly exaggerated low end for that type of sound effect.  If it's really objectionable I could remove it entirely, though it does sound good as it is at present.

I've been trying to find more information about the technical specifications of 70mm magnetic audio, but haven't really found much that I didn't already know.  I'm not sure exactly how much headroom each channel contained, or what sort of mixing standards were in place at the time.  Various sources have suggested that the modern digital surround formats brought the powerful sound of 70mm to a much greater number of theaters; it's probably reasonable to assume that the dynamic characteristics were fairly similar, but I'm sure it's not exact.  Specifically I'm wondering whether the practise of lowering the LFE level by 10 decibels to increase the headroom was in place when Star Wars was mixed, or if that came about afterwards.  I can pretty much tell when I've made the bass too loud just by listening, but it would be helpful to have a concrete maximum db figure to refer to.

That would just be for my own edification really--aside from fixing the Alderaan explosion and checking a test file again, I'm basically done.  It really sounds awesome!  I'll always wonder how close it is to the real thing, but I can definitely live with this version.

If by some miracle the 70mm mix was ever given an actual transfer and official release, depending on how it was done it might not be possible to put it out exactly as it is without some tweaking.  The two LFE's would have to be summed together, and the mono surround probably distributed equally among both rear channels to get a proper 5.1 format.  If there is bass information in the boom tracks that goes above 120 hz--possible, since it was a new format and obviously Dolby Digital standards hadn't been established--those would have to be put back into the mains.  A bit of stereo panning in the surrounds or from front to back might not be objectionable if it was done tastefully, or possibly boosting the bass response if it seemed necessary; though the goal should clearly be to keep it as authentic as possible.  This is Lucasfilm we're talking about, however . . .

So what would it take to create a "Lucasfilm Pwnage Edition" of ROTJ and ESB? (I mean obviously, apart from doing the Jabba subtitles in ROTJ)?

Are the various theatrical audio tracks for the other two movies in even worse shape than ANH, or better?