(Spoilers)How could The Force Awakens have been more original? — Page 11

John Doom said:

I’m saying they should’ve showed him this threatening since the beginning, because at that point his role as the main villain was already ruined to me.

“I don’t like TFA because Kylo is shown as super evil and skilled din the beginning, but then it turns out that he can’t do anything.” - "I don’t like TFA because Kylo is not threatening enough in the beginning and only does something impactful towards the end."

So what is it now? Ask ten people why they didn’t like TFA and you will get ten contradictory answers.

BmB said:

Abrams raped my childhood.

You do realize that you have seriously wounded, possibly beyond repair, any points you hoped to make by exhuming that vile phrase? It’s probably the fastest way to lose an argument on this site.

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
You already know what I mean, though you disagree with me. No need to bore you repeating myself 😄

No, I kind of don’t. Kylo’s abilities with exception of being able to successfully pull information from Rey’s mind and his loss in the lightsaber duel were pretty consistent throughout the film. The latter failure being the result of numerous extenuating circumstances and without those in play his victory would have been an absolute certainty.

I’m talking about his ability to overall be seen as an actual threat throughout the movie. Please, I don’t want to repeat myself on this : (

It’s not his fault. His duty was to slow down the emperials to let the other escape, and he did a good job.

I could have sworn his duty was to stop the Walkers from destroying the power generators…which is precisely what they do once the battle turns in the Empire’s favor.

Excuse me, but saying this was Luke’s fault is pretty ridiculous. I’m not even sure we’ve seen the same movie.
Yes, the Walkers have to destroy the power generators, but the Rebels’ objective is not to defend them, but to protect them for as long as possible until the transports are away, because they know there’s nothing that can be done against the AT-AT and an entire Emperial fleet. Here’s from the script:

CONTROLLER: General, there’s a fleet of Star Destroyers coming out of hyperspace in sector four.
RIEEKAN: Reroute all power to the energy shield. We’ve got to hold them till all transports are away. Prepare for ground assault.

And then:

RIEEKAN: (into comlink) Launch patrols.
LEIA: (to an aide) Evacuate remaining ground staff.

They were just buying time to escape, they knew there was no way to win that battle. Luke’s not responsible for any of this, look it up :\

Can Vader actually just choke people out?

Why wouldn’t he be able to when people can do a rear naked choke and knock someone out by more conventional means?

He didn’t want to actually hurt the Emperor’s prey and his potential weapon against him.

Knocking Luke unconscious wouldn’t have done a thing to him that beyond well…unconsciousness.

For all we know, controlling oneself when using the Force to choke someone may not be easy: he might’ve not been able to stop before killing Luke, but that’s just speculation, or it may take time to focus (every time we see the Force being used in TESB, it takes more than a few seconds to take effect).

I meant pushing him into the freezer.

Oh well technically he still fell in but got out before it was too late.

And Vader admired him for his ability to overcome his trap.

EDIT: About Chocking-Vader, it may very well be that he was also testing Luke to see if he was skilled enough to help him against th Emperor (in fact he keeps questioning or admiring his skills), so he didn’t want to end the fight too soon.

That’s fine but at first he tried to freeze him and then after that plan fell apart he continued testing him. If he really wanted to freeze Luke initially he could have still choked him out and thrown him in the chamber.

Exactly, that’s what I mean. He initially thought he was “not as strong as the Emperor thought”, then, when he exceeded his expectations, maybe started testing him to see if he could be of some use to him.

Frank your Majesty said:

John Doom said:

I’m saying they should’ve showed him this threatening since the beginning, because at that point his role as the main villain was already ruined to me.

“I don’t like TFA because Kylo is shown as super evil and skilled din the beginning, but then it turns out that he can’t do anything.” - "I don’t like TFA because Kylo is not threatening enough in the beginning and only does something impactful towards the end."

So what is it now? Ask ten people why they didn’t like TFA and you will get ten contradictory answers.

Well, in my opinion he’s not constantly an actual threat from the beginning to the end. When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux) who can’t take control of the situation, and I lost any interest in him, certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters. And I remember finding this boring, that’s it :\

DuracellEnergizer said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Ask ten people why they didn’t like TFA and you will get ten contradictory answers.

Well, they are ten different people; they’re bound to have their own differing tastes and biases …

Yeah, but if there really was a big underlying problem in the movie, these complaints wouldn’t contradict each other so much. Among the people who don’t like the PT, there is at least a general consensus about what exactly is bad, not someone saying “Jar-Jar was stupid and unnecessary!!!” and the next one saying “Not enough Jar-Jar scenes!!!”.
In the case of TFA, it’s all about personal preferences and interpretations, not about things that are truly objectively bad. Notice that I didn’t say “what they don’t like about TFA”, sure you may not like villains to have a personality apart from being evil, but this doesn’t mean every movie that has such a villain is bad.

Lord Haseo said:

John Doom said:
I’m talking about his ability to overall be seen as an actual threat throughout the movie. Please, I don’t want to repeat myself on this : (

Well I don’t like repeating myself either but as stated before he was a continued threat to our heroes to the end. His “ultimate” failing being the result of other factors. Other factors you have been actively avoiding. Other factors that have never been in play before a lightsaber duel in the film saga.

I mean if you have to severely injure your antagonist and nerf his abilities so that your protagonist can beat him doesn’t that show how much of a threat he is?

I’m not specifically questioning the reason why he couldn’t kill Finn or Rey, I’m not avoiding the fact he was injuried, which may have weakened him for the final duel. My point is only his ability throught the movie to be seen as a constant threat to the viewer. I already explained you why I don’t think he was, but I’m not going to force you to agree with me, so let’s just end this discussion already or we’re going to repeat our stances forever 😄

Vader’s able to kill someone with Force Choke from thousands of miles away. You think that he wouldn’t master the subtelty of knocking someone out via Force Choking?

We can’t say this for sure because we’ve never seen him chocking someone out in either ANH or TESB.

Also in Lords of The Sith he choked out a main Twi’Lek character at the end of the book and in Revenge of The Sith he Force Choked Padme to unconsciousness.

You can’t use them as examples: both of them were written/shot way after TESB, so the concept of what Vader could do back then was different to Kershner and Kasdan. For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed. The Force is also used much more frequently during duels in the PT, while this isn’t the case in the OT.

I think he was trying seeking to use him anyway though his abilities showcased in the early stages of the duel only furthered him wanting to test Luke. But he was still trying to freeze him at first and that could have been done by much simpler means. He also could have picked him up, held him down with The Force and froze him that way.

It depends on whether his attempt to push him into the freezer was a first test (so without using all of his abilities, just to test if he was at least able to overcome that one).

John Doom said:
When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux)

And as you said before, just like Vader in STAR WARS. Someone we both consider a great villain.

You mean Tarkin by Leia? Nobody harrass Vader in Star Wars, except for Motti(?) who nearly gets killed because of this. Every character either respect him or fear him.

certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters. And I remember finding this boring, that’s it

gif

^ I’m sure this pleasantly surprised you.

😄 It did, but too late. I remember my reaction was “That fool is finally doing something!”. And then he was suddenly defeated by Rey after her short nap, and I started laughing 😄

TV’s Frink said:

John Doom said:

Well, in my opinion he’s not constantly an actual threat from the beginning to the end. When I saw TFA, I got from the beginning he was just some dude who was constantly being harrassed by almost anyone in that movie (from Poe to Hux) who can’t take control of the situation, and I lost any interest in him, certain he would’ve never harmed any of the main characters.

So you were wrong…great defense of your opinion!

My impression that he would have never harmed a main character was wrong because of his final duel in the very end of the movie, but my opinion isn’t: he was not a constant threat. As I said, LF could have handled this better by having someone else as the MAIN villain, an actual constant threat, so nobody would’ve said Kylo was not a believable main villain.

Frank your Majesty said:

“I don’t like TFA because Kylo is shown as super evil and skilled din the beginning, but then it turns out that he can’t do anything.” - "I don’t like TFA because Kylo is not threatening enough in the beginning and only does something impactful towards the end."

Frank your Majesty said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

Frank your Majesty said:

Ask ten people why they didn’t like TFA and you will get ten contradictory answers.

Well, they are ten different people; they’re bound to have their own differing tastes and biases …

Yeah, but if there really was a big underlying problem in the movie, these complaints wouldn’t contradict each other so much. Among the people who don’t like the PT, there is at least a general consensus about what exactly is bad, not someone saying “Jar-Jar was stupid and unnecessary!!!” and the next one saying “Not enough Jar-Jar scenes!!!”.
In the case of TFA, it’s all about personal preferences and interpretations, not about things that are truly objectively bad. Notice that I didn’t say “what they don’t like about TFA”, sure you may not like villains to have a personality apart from being evil, but this doesn’t mean every movie that has such a villain is bad.

PT preferences had many years to consolidate, while TFA just got out, so people are still figuring out what specifically is that they didn’t like, and if it’s a subjective or objective problem. By now, you could say both of these opinions on Kylo point out there may be a problem with how his charcter was either written or executed.

TV’s Frink said:

Not just the final duel…perhaps you forgot he killed someone as well?

You didn’t believe in him as a main villain, but plenty of people did.

He killed someone, but that was at the end of the film too. I didn’t like his character at all, regardless of villainy. I was actually kind of annoyed by him.

TV’s Frink said:
Not just the final duel…perhaps you forgot he killed someone as well?

You mean Han? Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\

You didn’t believe in him as a main villain, but plenty of people did.

I’m relieved. At least they were able to enjoy TFA more than us.

John Doom said:

Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\

Isn’t this exactly what a villain would do?

Dek Rollins said:

TV’s Frink said:

Not just the final duel…perhaps you forgot he killed someone as well?

You didn’t believe in him as a main villain, but plenty of people did.

He killed someone, but that was at the end of the film too. I didn’t like his character at all, regardless of villainy. I was actually kind of annoyed by him.

I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.

I guess I did, but they were referring to Han specifically. Either way, that whole opening piece of the film put me off from the start. (Well, after the crawl went by and an actual scene started, I mean)

Lord Haseo said:

If someone can either choke you out or choke you to death by normal means why can’t The Force do that? And what about the other suggestion I made?

We don’t know how the Force works. Consider chocking needs to be in anger, would it be possible to control oneself so to just choke out instead of killing? Maybe, maybe not, we don’t know, they’ve not told us.
Is the other suggestion related to that novel and ROTS? I said they can’t be used as examples because they were written way after TESB.

For example, lightsabers necessarily had to be handled with two hands, while in the PT only one hand is needed. The Force is also used much more frequently during duels in the PT, while this isn’t the case in the OT.

Vader used one hand early on in his duel against Luke in ESB

He was just playing with Luke, he’s not using all his strength. According to Lucas and Hamill, the only way to fully use a lightsaber back then, was with two hands.

It depends on whether his attempt to push him into the freezer was a first test (so without using all of his abilities, just to test if he was at least able to overcome that one).

I don’t think it was a test. Him freezing Han just to test out whether Carbon Freezing was viable likely indicates that was his primary motive early on.

His objective was to bring him to the Emperor, so he decided he would’ve freezed him using the Carbon Freezing. What I’m suggesting is that if Luke could be easily captured with no effort using the Carbon Freezing, he would’ve brought him to the Emperor. If Luke were to overcome this test, he would’ve instead tried to make him join him.

You mean Tarkin by Leia? Nobody harrass Vader in Star Wars, except for Motti(?) who nearly gets killed because of this. Every character either respect him or fear him.

Yes I mean Tarkin, Leia and Motti. Neither of them show no respect. In TFA Poe cracks a joke to him and tells him the First Order should rethink their technique after his initial interrogation (which was not by Kylo) and is promptly mind raped, Hux warns him not to let his personal reasons interfere with the Supreme Leader’s wishes but is silenced when his life is threatened by Kylo and is scolded by Snoke when he is resisted by Rey. But that’s his Master; I don’t remember Vader every giving Palpatine any crap before he killed him. And just like with the few exceptions of those who don’t respect Vader everyone else either fears or respects Kylo Ren.

Tarkin does respect him, Leia fears him. Vader does have a master, but in TESB he also shows bravery for his plan to overthrow him, and in ROTJ he’s not the main villain anymore.
Poe is not “promptly mind raped”, he’s just brought away after an embarassing silence. He’s tortured later in the movie, because that’s Kylo’s mission, not as a rection against his taunt.

Frank your Majesty said:

John Doom said:

Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\

Isn’t this exactly what a villain would do?

Anyone can kill someone unarmed with no skill, that’s not threatening :\

Lord Haseo said:

Tricking your father into believing you’ll come home and end this path of evil you’re going down only to stab him and tell him “Thank you” is pretty heinous dude. I don’t even think Vader would do something that vile. Much less to a family member.

Vile, but not threatening.

adywan said:

I guess you forgot about Lor San Tekka, who he killed right at the beginning of the film.

Another unarmed man, old too.
😄 Also, since we’ve mentioned him, I’m bound by contract to show this.

John Doom said:

Frank your Majesty said:

John Doom said:

Killing someone disarmed doesn’t count :\

Isn’t this exactly what a villain would do?

Anyone can kill someone unarmed with no skill, that’s not threatening :\

Lord Haseo said:

Tricking your father into believing you’ll come home and end this path of evil you’re going down only to stab him and tell him “Thank you” is pretty heinous dude. I don’t even think Vader would do something that vile. Much less to a family member.

Vile, but not threatening.

I’d also like to add that Kylo was pretty much an angsty teen who was proving his loyalty to the gang, and that he’s ‘real bad’, by swiping the Butterfinger from the grocery store. Or, in this case, by murdering his father, with whom he obviously didn’t have a good relationship anyway.