Since when did ROTJ become less highly regarded than even Episodes II or III? — Page 3

Well, zombie, I saw you on that YouTube clip recently and all I can say is there must be a painting of you in your attic that would put Dorian Gray's portrait to shame!

I don't put the fact that my parents weren't into Star Wars as being anything to do with my having time on my hands. They didn't watch it when they were children, simple as that. I'm sure they might have had a soft spot for Muffin The Mule or Andy Pandy because they were their reference points growing up in the thirties. And while I can't speak for other peoples' kids, I really don't know that they have that much time to watch endless tv and films. They're in school for a good part of the day five days a week then they come home, have their tea. At weekends they go swimming and play other sports. If they do watch a film then invariably it's either me or the missus (or both) who watches it with them. So, no, I'm not buying that "kids have all the time in the world" point I'm afraid.

I wish I did! My hair started to recede about ten years ago so I've adopted the "shaven" look now. I feel it gives me an ageless quality (although the kids derive endless amusement from telling me to "keep your hair on" whenever I lose my rag).

Easterhay said:

But the audience did get a sequel to TESB. The tone was different, yes, but no more or less than the change in tone from ANH to TESB.

Yes, it was a sequel in the technical sense but IMO and by many others who had invested their time in the gripping tour de force of ESB, it was only a mediocre wrap up much like Bingowings described it, an obligation. The drop in quality is epic, if you don't see it I think you're just lying to yourself and I believe many do because it's technically ESB part 2 of 2. If you weren't happy about how ESB turned out most people just settled with the first film and were fine with it, ESB is open ended, hence a more complex situation if you liked it, where most people choose to accept ROTJ just because of the fact that it ends the story no matter how bad that ending may be.

And there is of course those who genuinely love it and think it's a good film or just don't look at the situation as melodramatic as I describe it and can just enjoy the film from time to time for what it is even though they hold it below the others. I'm sorry if I am talking bad about your darling, it's only my opinion and the way I see it.

It's all about the execution, I don't think anyone expected the third one would be as compelling and dark as ESB but at least that it would feel like a natural conclusion to the bold narrative we were presented with in the previous film, all interesting plotting in ESB was thrown out the window just to get it over with.

Easterhay said:
ROTJ has a job to do, which is to tie up the loose ends and bring closure to the story.

That doesn't necessarily mean you cannot do it in a good and compelling way. The job it has to do is also to entertain us along the way otherwise the plotting just becomes a cheap trick.

Easterhay said:

It also serves to remind us that Star Wars is kids' fare.

Why does it have to remind us of that, can it not just be a sincere kids movie and tell us a good story that appeal to adults at the same time? just like the previous two films did. A good story is a good story, you never grow to old to appreciate good storytelling even if the subject is fantasy. Does a "kids movie" automatically mean no quality control needed in your world.

And if you need to remind the audience that this is kids' fare doesn't that raise an alarm that something went slightly wrong in the previous picture? (which I btw still believe to be a kids film) "What's the kind of film we are doing here? right we need to remind them this isn't a continuation of ESB..." "insert a burp joke or some slapstick humor."

Easterhay said:

That job done, we can now go back to having fun and if one word can sum up ROTJ then "fun" would be it.

Did you never have fun when watching SW or ESB?

I guess the big surprise is not that the second sequel was an average movie (how often does a sequel match the quality of the previous ones) but more that ESB was so f***ing good, perhaps that's the whole problem.

msycamore said:

And there is of course those who genuinely love it and think it's a good film or just don't look at the situation as melodramatic as I describe it and can just enjoy the film from time to time for what it is even though they hold it below the others. I'm sorry if I am talking bad about your darling, it's only my opinion and the way I see it.

I'm something else entirely. I know and acknowledge that ROTJ is objectively worse than SW and TESB, but it's still my favorite regardless.

I agree with all of your points and I therefore know that my favorite of the three is the worst of the three, but still... nostalgia is a drug... and I love me some Yub Nub. :-)

Lapti Nek!

Well, I really enjoy the film and have never had any big issues with it at all. I don't believe I'm lying to myself in that; it's a shame that you don't seem to be able to simply accept it and instead seem to feel the need to grandstand. It's only a difference of opinion; I'm not hurting anyone by liking the movie.

It was actually Richard Marquand who wanted to make the film more "fun". I believe he achieved that and yet, at the same time, there is serious drama in the scene between Luke, The Emperor and Darth Vader.

I don't think you and I are going to find agreement on this, though.

We can roughly break people up into four categories wrt ROTJ:

1. Good Film / Hate it

2. Good Film / Love it

3. Bad Film / Hate it

4. Bad Film / Love it

You'd have to be insane for #1 to hold, so I'm crossing it out.

Easterhay seems to be a #2er, msycamore seems to be a #3er, and I'm a #4er.

Then again, maybe you'd have to be insane for #4 to hold, so that means I'm insane... Oh, no!

Well some films are so bad they're good...I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, though :)

Easterhay said:

Well some films are so bad they're good...I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, though :)

The Delta Force (1986)? :-p

Easterhay said:

Well some films are so bad they're good...I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, though :)

Santa Claus Conquers the Martians.

"Crush them Torg!!!"

Easterhay said:

Well, I really enjoy the film and have never had any big issues with it at all. I don't believe I'm lying to myself in that; it's a shame that you don't seem to be able to simply accept it and instead seem to feel the need to grandstand. It's only a difference of opinion; I'm not hurting anyone by liking the movie.

Yeah, that was a bit much of me to say really, I cannot dictate what you feel about it, sorry about that. Jedi simply never worked for me and I was still a naive kid back then and it was never about the usual complaints of ewoks being in it either. But for every year that went by the problems I had with it had mushroomed until I found out that I am better of ending on a good note rather than a sour note whenever I get the urge to watch the SW-films, that's why I don't find any problem to stop watching with ESB.

AntcuFaalb said:

I'm something else entirely. I know and acknowledge that ROTJ is objectively worse than SW and TESB, but it's still my favorite regardless.

I agree with all of your points and I therefore know that my favorite of the three is the worst of the three, but still... nostalgia is a drug... and I love me some Yub Nub. :-)

Lapti Nek!

Yeah, yet another combination. I think we all can relate to that, some films we have a really strong nostalgic attachment to and we simply like them because of that. And hate is too strong of a word for it, maybe back in those days I hated it somewhat because it disappointed me so much, SW meant so much to me back then. But this is a 30 year old goddamn movie, if I hadn't gotten over it by now I would be a really pathetic guy. I actually rewatched it not that long ago when doing some sub work and I found some aspects of it enjoyable. Maybe I'm beginning to soften up to it. ;)

SpilkaBilka said:

Am I the only one who thinks ROTS is actually even more horrible than AOTC?

No!  I agree with you.  In my opinion, each successive prequel kept getting worse.  Here is my literary synopsis:

TPM has two things going for it:  (1) badass choral music over the climactic lightsaber duel, and (2) Creepy Puppet Yoda, who for some perverse reason I find mesmerizing.  AOTC and ROTS, lacking those tidbits, are just unwatchable.  Plus, they have Hayden Christensen, who actually manages to do what everyone thought impossible: make us miss Jake Lloyd.

AOTC has only one thing going for it - the existence of Christopher Lee.  He's NOT actually good in the film, but just his being there, making us wonder if he's going to raise his cape and bite someone, earns AOTC 2nd place among the PT.

ROTS is a mind-numbing video game with nothing going for it at all.  I've seen it three times and cannot remember a single scene or character from the film, apart from 10 seconds where someone on a speeder goes to Ben's hut with a baby.

He needs a better agent.

Puggo, for instance.

awesome ROTJ trailer

I still think you can make a case that ROTJ is the best out of the entire trilogy.  Sure, there are things about it that are weaker than the previous 2.  A 2nd Death Star seems redundant, the ewoks seem a little too cute, and Han doesn't have much to do. But that is just because ROTJ is the most daring, takes the most chances.  It has the weakest moments, but like somebody else said it has the strongest moments, stronger than any of the previous 2 movies. The part where Luke snaps, for instance. But maybe the biggest thing is how it is done, the execution is much, much better than the prequels.  The film stock, lenses, lighting.  John Williams in his prime culminating the trilogy with a  really really good score.  Emperor's theme.

BLAST!  THIS WHOLE POST WAS BASED ON A MISREADING OF 'ROTJ' AS 'ROTS'. 

I AGREE WITH TB.  I WILL ALSO SET YOU ON FIRE IF YOU THINK E2 WAS BETTER THAN ROTJ. 

ORIGINAL POST RESUMES:

 

TheBoost said:

Anyone who said Ep II was better than ROTJ would get set on fire by me. 

This logic works for me, so let's try it out on you.

Let's say I owe you $30 and I plan to pay you back in $10 installments over three weeks.

The first week I cough up $3.  Not too bad since I promise to make up for it by pay $14 each of the following weeks.  Final score: 3/10. (30%)

The second week, I pay you $4.  You have to admit, it's more than last week, but is it 4/10 (40%) or 4/14 (29%)?  However, I promise I'll pay you $26 the final week to make up for it.

The third week, I pay you $5.  I am forced to admit I have no more money nor intention of paying you the remainder of what I owe you or have promised.  Did I pay you 5/10 (50%)?  Or did I pay you 5/26 (19%)?

Which week did I pay you the most?  Which week did I most fall short?  Can it be the same week?

As the middle episode of the prequel trilogy, I have the least amount of requirement for AotC.  Is it better than TPM?  Yes, I think it is.  Does it sufficiently muddy the waters in preparation for a... water... purifying... Episode 3?  I think so.  However, it was still pretty bad.  Meaning that if the Prequel Trilogy as a whole was going to redeem itself, then Episode 3 not only had to be good, but it had to be good enough to ease the debt of Episodes 1 & 2.  It wasn't. 

I maintain that Episode 3 was better than Episodes 1 and 2, but still fell well short of "good" and way way short of "good enough to ease the debt". 

If I was forced to watch one again, and not in the Ridiculously Improved Frink Format, it would probably be AotC.  I find it to be the least disappointing, even it's only the second best made.

And a movie that had more than 16 years of hype and waiting that (generally) lived up to the hype: Fellowship of the Ring.

Davnes007 said:

Bingowings said:

...

Luke returns to complete his training (we are lead to believe this is the first time he has seen Yoda since rushing off to 'save' his friends, therefore he has had days of training not years).

...

I was under the impression that Luke's training (and Han/Leia/3P0/Chewie's journey in the MF) had been several months long.

"Bespin...it's pretty far, but I think we can make it"
-Han Solo, TESB 

I think what Bingowings is getting at, is that the major plot of ROTJ is that Luke needs to confront Vader in order to become a Jedi, that's what both Yoda and Ben tells him now. But in ESB they both warned him and insisted that he shouldn't rush off to face Vader because his training wasn't complete. When he return to Dagobah in ROTJ his training is suddenly complete because the script says so. "All other planned films are in the trash can, wrap it up guys!"

ESB - Don't rush off to face Vader, you need to finish your training first, he choose to face vader...

ROTJ - Luke: "I have returned to complete my training." Yoda: "Your training is complete, you need to face Vader."

I think in the first exchange Yoda is referring to Luke's physical training.

In the second exchange he's talking about Luke's mental training, control of his emotions, etc.

zombie84 said:

I don't think it's a contradiction. Yoda is saying there is nothing more he can teach him, but that he still needs to confront Vader to graduate; confronting  Vader isn't something Yoda can provide so this is something Luke needs to seek out. I think in fighting Vader in ESB, and learning from that and meditating on it, and practicing in the months since then, he is in the place that Yoda wished he was at the end of ESB--capable of taking on Vader, emotionally and physically--and now he just needs to go ahead and finally do it.

This is what I've always thought. By confronting Vader and not succumbing to the Dark Side at a very emotionally vulnerable stage, showing that he would rather die than to join the Dark Side, despite the fact that his own, long-lost father was asking him to, he proved that he was indeed ready to be a Jedi.

At that point, whatever else Yoda might have wanted to teach Luke during ESB was moot because Luke had already surpassed it with real experience.

I think that, if you take the prequels into account, the confrontation on Cloud City also showed Yoda that maybe he had a thing or two to learn himself and that maybe the Jedi Order's teachings were flawed all this time; that maybe this young upstart was actually more right about what it is to be a Jedi than Mr. 900-year-old, "my-own-counsel-I-will-keep" professional Jedi Grandmaster did, and I feel that this is proven at the end of ROTJ when Yoda and Ben look on at Luke proudly alongside Anakin (who not long before they had written off entirely): they acknowledged that their way of doing things was wrong, that they had been dealing in absolutes themselves (Anakin being irredeemable), that there's no such thing as "too far gone", that anyone can be saved, and perhaps things like emotions and attachments are not so bad after all.

For the record, though, I also agree that Yoda's death was kinda lamely handled.