logo Sign In

STAR WARS V8 - A Final Attempt (Released) — Page 3

Author
Time
Arnie.d said:

 

About the capture card settings, wouldn't it be best to just set them to the defaults and manually adjust brightness and saturation later using avisynth?

 

No. For the simple reason that if the white or black level is clipping, there is no way to retrieve the detail that gets lost.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Mother beat me to it! Yeah, you don't want to risk losing detail in the white or dark areas so you need to check your settings/captures for each project. In fact (although rare) there can occasions where one section of a film will need to have a different brightness setting than another part of that same film! And make sure your monitor is calibrated to at least some degree before all this of course (I know a lot of us can't afford a pro calibration; at least I can't).

LightWave = fun times with gfx for me 😃

Author
Time

Well, the blacks aren't crushed and the whites aren't clipped (in my opinion).

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time

Arnie.d, I take it the median filter wasn't as good?

-G

Author
Time
 (Edited)

I didn't test the median filter. I thought the temperalsoften was better?

Not only does the telecine settings change sometimes from scene to scene, the black bars on the side and top and bottom change also from time to time which means I have to use multiple cropping settings for different scenes. Bummer.

 

Anyway, I made a testclip. It's just a raw capture upscaled to anamorphic, no other filters were applied (also no averaging). It was captured using the default capture settings:

Movealong

And another one:

Leia

And the flyover, average of 3 captures:

Flyover

 

I welcome suggestions about the contrast, color, saturation, brightness etc. (or any other suggestions or ideas).

 

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Arnie.d said:

I didn't test the median filter. I thought the temperalsoften was better?

 

 

It all depends on what type of noise you have. Only one way to tell really...

Any chance you could post the same clip from 3 different captures?

-G

Author
Time
g-force said:

Arnie.d said:

I didn't test the median filter. I thought the temperalsoften was better?

 

 

It all depends on what type of noise you have. Only one way to tell really...

Any chance you could post the same clip from 3 different captures?

-G

 Does it have to be uncompressed or is mpeg2 ok?

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
Arnie.d said:

g-force said:

Arnie.d said:

I didn't test the median filter. I thought the temperalsoften was better?

 

 

It all depends on what type of noise you have. Only one way to tell really...

Any chance you could post the same clip from 3 different captures?

-G

 Does it have to be uncompressed or is mpeg2 ok?

 

mpeg2 should be just fine for what I have in mind!

thanks,

-G

Author
Time
Arnie.d said:

Well, the blacks aren't crushed and the whites aren't clipped (in my opinion).


Check the luma waveform, either with the colortools plugin for VirtualDub or the Histogram("classic") filter in AviSynth. Then you can remove the last three words from your above statement! :p

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Arnie.d said:

 

Anyway, I made a testclip. It's just a raw capture upscaled to anamorphic, no other filters were applied (also no averaging). It was captured using the default capture settings:

Movealong

And another one:

Leia

And the flyover, average of 3 captures:

Flyover

 

I welcome suggestions about the contrast, color, saturation, brightness etc. (or any other suggestions or ideas).

 

 Arnie,

these are looking nice so far. I'll play around with these and (hopefully) the 3 different sources you will post and get back to you on some suggestions.

BTW, it is so nice to see a source without so much telecine wobble! I also agree that the whites and blacks don't appear to be clipped, but I would still take Moth3r's suggestion of checking these objectively just in case.

Keep up the good work!

-G

Author
Time

D'oh! I completely missed that you had posted some samples!

Downloading now...

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time

Arnie.d,

here's my first crack at it.

 

ConvertToYV12()

########## set black level, adjust gamma, saturation/hue
Levels(15,1.2,240,0,255)
Tweak(sat=1.5,hue=-5)

########## prefilter (for obtaining motion vectors)
source = last
source.TemporalSoften(7,255,255,25,2).Repair(source,9)

########## get motion vectors
bw_vec1 = last.MVAnalyse(isb=true, delta=1,pel=2,sharp=1,overlap=4,idx=1)
fw_vec1 = last.MVAnalyse(isb=false,delta=1,pel=2,sharp=1,overlap=4,idx=1)

########## apply motion vectors
bw1 = source.MVCompensate(bw_vec1,idx=2,thSAD=400)
fw1 = source.MVCompensate(fw_vec1,idx=2,thSAD=400)

########## 1st degrain stage
inter = Interleave(bw1,source,fw1)
inter.Clense(reduceflicker=false).TemporalSoften(1,255,255,25,2)

########## limit 1st degrain stage
last.Repair(inter,9)

########## 2nd degrain stage
TemporalSoften(1,255,255,25,2)
SelectEvery(3,1)

########## temporal min/max sharpening stage
pmax = source.MT_Logic(bw1,"max").MT_Logic(fw1,"max")
pmin = source.MT_Logic(bw1,"min").MT_Logic(fw1,"min")
MT_lutxy(last,last.RemoveGrain(12,-1),"x y - 1.7 * x +",U=2,V=2)
MT_Clamp(pmax,pmin,2,2,U=2,V=2)

 

 

-G

Author
Time

Here are some random thoughts about your rip Arnie.d:

That's a lot of noise (but I guess we had been warned of this by Laserman) on those laserdiscs. This makes it difficult to turn up the saturation, contrast and sharpness without making this thing nearly unwatchable. I tried to do some noise removal in my script, but still not enough in my opinion.

There is some sort of ringing or haloing most noticable on straight vertical objects. My guess is that this is the LD player. These become even more noticable with any sort of sharpening that is added.

It's nice to see SW stable and DVNR smear free!

My Levels, saturation and Hue are just what I could do quickly. You may have more luck playing around with these in RGB space (of which I have little experience)

I'm still excited to see how different the 3 captures are in terms of noise. might be a little more that could be removed.

I'm going to start another thread on this, but the opening sequence (Tantive and Destroyer) stars and planet are totally different from the GOUT. It appears that the SE was used for the GOUT. Did we already know this?

Keep us up to date on any progress you make!

-G

Author
Time

G-force, I think you need a piece of raw capture to make a good script. The test clips I posted were compressed at an average bitrate of 4000 kbps. I think there's a lot of mpeg artifacts introduced.

I'm not sure about the haloing. Could it be possible it's on the LDs itself? They are also present on DJ's transfer.

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time

Arnie.d this sounds like a wonderful project you've undertaken.

I was disappointed when dark_jedi discontinued his second SC project, although his "HD2DVD" endeavors probably seemed like greener pastures to him at the time, and I can't fault him for that.

I'm very excited to see your results.

 

Two months ago I picked up an LD-V8000 thinking I might have a go at preserving a couple non-SW LD's. Prior to that I spent some time using the Dark/Sega ANH as an example while teaching myself manual IVTC using native Linux tools. I quit after the first reel, but to some degree I can feel your pain brother, and I don't envy you the task of IVTC'ing the whole movie.

 

Regarding haloing, do you suppose a cable impedance mismatch could be affecting it?

Didn't you say you're using a BNC/RCA adaptor? Would that be an RCA cable with BNC adaptor on the LD end?

I wonder if you'd get any different results using a true 75-Ohm BNC cable with the adaptor on the PC end?

 

Any chance you could post a snapshot of your LD-V800 rear panel? I'm curious to compare the connectors with my LD-V8000.

 

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time

All good ideas Darth Mallwalker!

-G

Author
Time
 (Edited)

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2535/dsc63141280x768ur4.th.jpg

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/971/dsc63181280x768ol7.th.jpg

With BNC to RCA adapter:

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/3560/dsc63191280x768oh6.th.jpg

 

Darth Mallwalker said:

Regarding haloing, do you suppose a cable impedance mismatch could be affecting it?

Didn't you say you're using a BNC/RCA adaptor? Would that be an RCA cable with BNC adaptor on the LD end?

I wonder if you'd get any different results using a true 75-Ohm BNC cable with the adaptor on the PC end?

Can you explain how that can possibly make any difference? 

 

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time
 (Edited)
Arnie.d said:

 

Darth Mallwalker said:

Regarding haloing, do you suppose a cable impedance mismatch could be affecting it?

Didn't you say you're using a BNC/RCA adaptor? Would that be an RCA cable with BNC adaptor on the LD end?

I wonder if you'd get any different results using a true 75-Ohm BNC cable with the adaptor on the PC end?

Can you explain how that can possibly make any difference? 

 

 

Arnie.d,

Im not a big advocate of the whole "the cable makes all the difference" that is so prevalent in the Audiophile community. But in this case it really does. At higher frequencies, cables stop acting like "wires" and more like "waveguides". So if you have some high frequency component of the signal that is (due to impedance mismatch like DM said) bouncing back and fourth between the mismatched impedance ends, you will set up standing waves and have the same signal arriving multiple times.

Give it a shot. Can't hurt right? Might even want to clean off some of the corrosion on the jack with a metal polish of some sort.

-G

Author
Time
 (Edited)
g-force said:

Arnie.d said:

 

Darth Mallwalker said:

Regarding haloing, do you suppose a cable impedance mismatch could be affecting it?

Didn't you say you're using a BNC/RCA adaptor? Would that be an RCA cable with BNC adaptor on the LD end?

I wonder if you'd get any different results using a true 75-Ohm BNC cable with the adaptor on the PC end?

Can you explain how that can possibly make any difference? 

 

 

Arnie.d,

Im not a big advocate of the whole "the cable makes all the difference" that is so prevalent in the Audiophile community. But in this case it really does. At higher frequencies, cables stop acting like "wires" and more like "waveguides". So if you have some high frequency component of the signal that is (due to impedance mismatch like DM said) bouncing back and fourth between the mismatched impedance ends, you will set up standing waves and have the same signal arriving multiple times.

Give it a shot. Can't hurt right? Might even want to clean off some of the corrosion on the jack with a metal polish of some sort.

-G

 

OK, so a cable like this and a plug like this?

Yes, I'll remove the corrosion.

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time

Broadcast/professional equipment uses BNC connections for video cabling, to minimise signal degradation from back-reflection caused by impedance mismatch. The X0 team actually modified their PDI Deluxe capture card to swap the RCA with a BNC connector.

Arnie, in those clips you posted, did you crop then add the black bars back in? I'm asking because the black level of the bars is pure black, whereas the black in the actual video is elevated a fair bit higher. There is no clipping of the whites - in fact, I would recommend increasing the contrast.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Moth3r said:

Broadcast/professional equipment uses BNC connections for video cabling, to minimise signal degradation from back-reflection caused by impedance mismatch. The X0 team actually modified their PDI Deluxe capture card to swap the RCA with a BNC connector.

Arnie, in those clips you posted, did you crop then add the black bars back in? I'm asking because the black level of the bars is pure black, whereas the black in the actual video is elevated a fair bit higher. There is no clipping of the whites - in fact, I would recommend increasing the contrast.

 

Yes, I cropped the black bars and added new ones (to get rid of the subtitles).

Do you mean increasing the contrast of the capture card or avisynth?

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.
Author
Time

Those captures look quite good already, and it is clear that averaging the captures has had positive results, as for the levels I'm no expert but I'd say you need to reduce the brightness and increase contrast on the capture card settings to try and use the full range of the capture card, this will give much better results than adjusting afterwards with Avisynth.

When setting the capture settings the letterbox bars should be your best black reference so reduce the brightness until they are just above the minimum, then adjust contrast until the whites are just below the maximum, if the subtitles are white they might be a good reference for white levels, otherwise you'll have to search for some scenes that have pure white in them.

If possible (and I'm no laserdisc expert so it might not be) find a frame with a pure white area and pause on that frame, then adjust the capture settings while running the waveform filter in Vdub, I think this works with my capture card but yours may be different. I'm sure Moth3r will correct me if I've got anything really wrong.

 

 

Author
Time

Max is right. If you capture a reduced luma range, then extend it afterwards with AviSynth, you can get banding effects. Conversely, the risk in calibrating the capture card brightness (black point) and contrast (white point) to grab the full range is that if something changes you may end up clipping the waveform. So it's important to check several sections, and to re-check when capturing the next side of the laserdisc.

You should definitely use the waveform monitor in the colortools plugin, because then you are not relying on your visual judgement or your monitor being correctly calibrated. I would say use the starfields as a reference for black rather than the letterbox bars - I remember a spot in Empire when the black level suddenly increased at a scene change, so the blackness of space became instead a washed out dark grey. And blaster flashes or explosions are a good reference for peak white.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Arnie.d said:

Can you explain how that can possibly make any difference?

 

Well that's a definite maybe....

 

Imagine standing in an empty hall and clapping your hands. The sound bounces back from the wall at the far end, and you hear it as an echo.

Well your BNC/RCA adapter behaves a little like the wall. Most of the electrical signal passes through the adapter as it should, but a small percentage is reflected back along the wire. Part of the signal bounces back from that point inside the adapter where the impedance changes just as sound waves bounce off the wall and ripples bounce back from the side of a pool.

 

Moth3r said:

back-reflection caused by impedance mismatch.

 

g-force said:

bouncing back and fourth between the mismatched impedance ends

 

Yes, that's the idea I'm trying to get at (don't know if it's correct or not ;)

Your current setup has impedance mismatch at both ends of the cable. [Yes, even with the "native" cable -- RCA cable to card's RCA jack -- there's still some impedance mismatch because of the physical properties of the RCA connector. The diameter of its centre pin prevents it from reaching 75Ω.] So the possibility of standing waves like G mentioned or multiple bounce-back-and-forths between the two "impedance boundaries."

With the alternative setup having a 75Ω BNC connector on the LD end of the cable, there's no impedance mismatch at that end -- hence no signal bouncing back from that interface, and no echo to be captured at the PC end.

 

Too bad Laserman isn' t in a position to give input. I'll bet he's tried it both ways already, but we're stuck reinventing the wheel through our own (your own) experiments. Nevertheless it seems worth a try to me....

The ebay link for the adapter is just what I mean.

The link for the BNC cable is RG-59. That might well have been what was used back in the day when your player was new. Today with cable modems and satellite TV boxes RG-6 is more prevalent than back then, and should be even better. They're both 75Ω, so backward-compatible in that sense. Even though you're not sending the very high frequecies associated with digital data, RG-6 might offer a slight advantages even at the lower frequencies of composite video. I found a USA vendor selling 2m RG-6 with BNC ends for $5. If you can find RG-6 for similar price, then why not?

 

Thank you for the pics. I'll show you mine ;) . . . as soon as I can beg, borrow or steal a camera or phone from somebody.

 

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Well, I'll give it a try. Does the length of the cable matter? I mean, would I see any difference in image quality if I use a 0.5, 1.0 or 2.0 meter cable? Wasn't BNC made to be a good signal over long distances?

Also, left of the EXT SYNC connectors on the back of my player is this 75Ω on/off switch. Any idea what it's for?

Fez: I am so excited about Star Whores.
Hyde: Fezzy, man, it's Star Wars.