Well, the cave question was obviously answered in the EU - and in the good one (at lest for me) too. It's explained in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, and the answer is quite cool IMHO but I won't post it, I don't want to stop anyone's imagination by an official explanation. If you want to know, I'm sure you can find out for yourselves :-)
adywan said:
Well, as i am in a great mood today because it's my Birthday i thought i would give you all a little treat. here is a comparison video that shows the difference between the 2004 official DVD lightsabers and how they will look in ESB:R.
Enjoy :)
Awesome! And Happy belated Birthday, Adywan!
Isn't Ady a nice guy? We all get a gift on his birthday! Thanks!!
I do not fear the Dark Side as you do.
Adywan, happy birthday and congrats on being a grandfather! (sorry I'm late)
You know of the rebellion against the Empire?
Harmy said:
Well, the cave question was obviously answered in the EU - and in the good one (at lest for me) too. It's explained in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, and the answer is quite cool IMHO but I won't post it, I don't want to stop anyone's imagination by an official explanation. If you want to know, I'm sure you can find out for yourselves :-)
I've never considered the EU "official" in any way whatsoever. Feel free to post whatever you like, it won`t dull my imagination one bit ;)
I actually never got to fully understand what the cave was. Somehow it always made me think it was a place under an old tree, under its roots, somewhere not man-made. On the other hand it looks like a structure (with no entrance but a hole under a tree?), but never like in Return of the King when Aragorn recruits the dead. I think it's mostly because, basically it looks like a corridor, not like a cave or room. Infact I always wondered what was on the other side of the corridor... If Luke entered by one side, he went out by the other side?
All this talk about the cave's origins are starting to sound like a Prequel Edit Wishlist item. But that would definitely be World-Shrinkage.
On the other hand, Anchorhead probably doesn't read this.
Darth Hade said:
To tell the truth, I never liked the look of "the cave" in ESB. I didn't like that it looked like some sort of hidden or long buried structure. It should have just been a cave, nothing more.
I see Luke coming into the cave and then being met by fog. After a few moments, Vader appears out of the fog.
That's how I would've done it if I was the director. Vader is merely a manifestation of Luke's mind since obviously he is not there. Luke is surprised/shocked to see Vader, but we all know he shouldn' be since he saw exactly what he wanted to see. Making it look more in line with what I would would call a "dream-like" sequence would have been a better choice for Lucas/Kersh in my opinion.
You acknowledge that Vader is merely a manifestation of Luke's mind, so why can't the "structure" around him be a part of this manifestation, as well? I mean, that's how I've always thought of it. You say that it should be just a cave, nothing more, and I agree completely! The difference, though, is that I think it IS just a cave--a cave that's strong with the dark side of the Force. Given the negative energy swirling within it, maybe its appearance changes depending on who enters it. Think of boggarts from Harry Potter--it's the same general concept.
I agree with Captain Antilles and add to that...
Darth Hade said:
Luke is surprised/shocked to see Vader, but we all know he shouldn' be since he saw exactly what he wanted to see. Making it look more in line with what I would would call a "dream-like" sequence would have been a better choice...
That's totally wrong. At no point is it said that Luke is in control of what he "takes with him" into the cave. I think you're missing the very point of what the cave test is for. It manifests the subconscious, it's not a Holodeck.
Lemonstein said:
That's totally wrong. At no point is it said that Luke is in control of what he "takes with him" into the cave.
You mean other than the very symbolic part where Yoda tells him he won't need his weapons and he chooses to take them in, right? Yeah, you can say that Luke's choosing the weapons betrays the unconscious, the desires and emotions he can't control, but I think the more valid (within the philosophy of Star Wars, of course) view is that by choosing the weapons he also chooses the attitudes revealed by content of the vision.
He takes fear and doubt into the cave and it shows him the object and the consequences of his fear.
This is why I loathe PT Yoda with a saber on principle (besides the fact that it looks stupid on screen).
Yoda is a Jedi Master not a Jedi Knight.
Ben gives Luke a weapon and on day one shows him how to use it, Yoda tells him wars don't make people great and that Luke doesn't necessarily need his weapons, he needs to believe in the Force that surrounds him because he is more than just a bag of flesh.
Luke wins nothing with his weapons in fact he almost loses everything using them.
It's only when he throws his weapons aside (or has them taken away from him) and surrenders to the Force that the light side prevails.
Bingowings said:
he needs to believe in the Force that surrounds him because he is more than just a bag of flesh.
Ugly, giant bag of mostly water!
The cave scene always confused me to some extent as a tyke; why was Luke seeing his own face in Vader's helmet? I didn't think in terms of fear/belief/etc... at the time. And now I see that even as adults, there's no clearcut answer, based on the number of opinions there are. ;)
Darth Hade said:
To tell the truth, I never liked the look of "the cave" in ESB. I didn't like that it looked like some sort of hidden or long buried structure. It should have just been a cave, nothing more.
While I've never wanted the explanation, I've always liked that there was a structure there. It hinted at something ancient and mysterious. Implied a richer backstory than we'd ever get to know.
TheBoost said:
Darth Hade said:
To tell the truth, I never liked the look of "the cave" in ESB. I didn't like that it looked like some sort of hidden or long buried structure. It should have just been a cave, nothing more.
While I've never wanted the explanation, I've always liked that there was a structure there. It hinted at something ancient and mysterious. Implied a richer backstory than we'd ever get to know.
This.
"a domain of evil it is." That's all we really know about it. I've always figured that it's like an ancient Sith temple or something.
ray_afraid said:
"a domain of evil it is." That's all we really know about it. I've always figured that it's like an ancient Sith temple or something.
Thats always how I had seen it in my mind. I had kinda pictured a PT scene where it is mentioned in passing, pointing towards it, but not outright explaining how the dark side specifically imbued the area (perhaps in the scene where Anakin visits Palpy at the opera house). Of course, the way Lucas actually wrote the PT, he'd have said that some dark jedi was killed there, and his blood spilled out on the ground, and his "evil midichlorians" seeped into the earth and still live there to this day, growing into all the plants and vines...blah blah blah
I think it is the force showing him where he is headed, whether it is a good thing or bad is up to Luke.
"The other versions will disappear. Even the 35 million tapes of Star Wars out there won’t last more than 30 or 40 years. A hundred years from now, the only version of the movie that anyone will remember will be the DVD version [of the Special Edition], and you’ll be able to project it on a 20’ by 40’ screen with perfect quality. I think it’s the director’s prerogative, not the studio’s to go back and reinvent a movie." - George Lucas
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Lemonstein said:
I agree with Captain Antilles and add to that...
Darth Hade said:
Luke is surprised/shocked to see Vader, but we all know he shouldn' be since he saw exactly what he wanted to see. Making it look more in line with what I would would call a "dream-like" sequence would have been a better choice...
That's totally wrong. At no point is it said that Luke is in control of what he "takes with him" into the cave. I think you're missing the very point of what the cave test is for. It manifests the subconscious, it's not a Holodeck.
Are you serious?
"That place... is strong with the dark side of the Force. A domain of evil it is... and you must go." - Yoda
"What's in there?" - Luke
"Only what you take with you." - Yoda
Luke wants to fight Vader. He wants revenge for what he believes to be the murder of his father. It doesn't matter what Yoda has said up to that point, Luke is about revenge.
He may not be entirely conscious of his feelings, but he wanted to see Vader in there.
That's what he wanted.
That's what he made happen.
That's what he got.
“Anakin had those qualities so rarely seen, exuding an unmistakable confidence and yet still able to touch one’s heart in simply knowing how he was so flawed… wounded.”
Captain Antilles said:
You acknowledge that Vader is merely a manifestation of Luke's mind, so why can't the "structure" around him be a part of this manifestation, as well? I mean, that's how I've always thought of it. You say that it should be just a cave, nothing more, and I agree completely! The difference, though, is that I think it IS just a cave--a cave that's strong with the dark side of the Force. Given the negative energy swirling within it, maybe its appearance changes depending on who enters it. Think of boggarts from Harry Potter--it's the same general concept.
I hear ya, CA. It could be a part of that. But if I were to do that, I'd show it to the audience. I'd show the cave transform. Have it change right around Luke. After that, I'd show the fog start to appear and... well, you know the rest.
But I can understand the other points of view. Seeing some sort of structure there without an explanation appeals to the imagination of what it might have been.
Bingowings said:
He takes fear and doubt into the cave and it shows him the object and the consequences of his fear.
Excellent.
timdiggerm said:
Lemonstein said:
That's totally wrong. At no point is it said that Luke is in control of what he "takes with him" into the cave.
You mean other than the very symbolic part where Yoda tells him he won't need his weapons and he chooses to take them in, right? Yeah, you can say that Luke's choosing the weapons betrays the unconscious, the desires and emotions he can't control, but I think the more valid (within the philosophy of Star Wars, of course) view is that by choosing the weapons he also chooses the attitudes revealed by content of the vision.
Exactly.
“Anakin had those qualities so rarely seen, exuding an unmistakable confidence and yet still able to touch one’s heart in simply knowing how he was so flawed… wounded.”
This is why the PT falls flat on it's face nine times out of ten.
ESB has a moral centre which is missing in those films.
LUKE : Is the dark side stronger?
YODA : No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
LUCAS AOTC Commentary : We're cementing [Anakin's] determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power, you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the dark side.
I may have missed it but what's the ETA on this?
December, hopefully.Prog5000 said:
I may have missed it but what's the ETA on this?
Star Wars Revisited Wordpress
Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress
blimey.
Bingowings said:
This is why the PT falls flat on it's face nine times out of ten.
ESB has a moral centre which is missing in those films.
LUKE : Is the dark side stronger?
YODA : No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
LUCAS AOTC Commentary : We're cementing [Anakin's] determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power, you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the dark side.
ahhhh! that is awesome!
Bingowings said:
This is why the PT falls flat on it's face nine times out of ten.
ESB has a moral centre which is missing in those films.
LUKE : Is the dark side stronger?
YODA : No...no...no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
LUCAS AOTC Commentary : We're cementing [Anakin's] determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power, you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the dark side.
Proof that Lucas is the Sith Lord we've been looking for.
“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers
There has been so much stuff like that over the years that show they didn't make the PT fit the OT nearly as much as they could have. (apathy? incompetence?) I guess they figured no one would notice. *shrug* The focus is definitely on the pretty green screen stuff, which is aging horribly in some cases.
Surely we can admit that this is the wrong thread for this discussion?