vaderios said:
Well considering that and taking reference the original schematics, when luke is on the antenna the bottom of cloud city(the top from our pov) should be tilted and not straight ;)
-Angel
Also also in some shots Cloud city seems to be a bit more squeezed compare the schematics. not a problem tho, it looks more good ;)
I wouldn't take this as an "original schematics", as for many things in star wars there never was any schematics made for cloud city, this drawing was made for a book "the essential guide to vehicles and vessels" so it's rather an illustration made to look like one but not really faithful to the original (those illustrators, however talented, can't afford to spend the time we fans spend on that kind of thing). So, generally speaking a lot of the blueprints in that book are not faithful to the original or simply wrong…
Save me savmagoett:D:D:D
Blueprint master :)
Show me what is accurate there
-Angel
vaderios said:
Save me savmagoett:D:D:D
Blueprint master :)
Show me what is accurate there
-Angel
Well… feed me with some HD captures of the city and I will "draw you the truth" :p
Never mind I am a doofus.
Just want to say I'd be in favour of simply flattening the bottom of cloud city to solve the dissonance between the supertotals and the close up shots. There's something about the flat bottom. It just looks good.
And the approach shot doesn't sit right with me, cloud city looks wrong, and the shading appears off too.
Maybe it can be solved in another way:
Maybe a flat area could be created to ring around the central shaft. It would allude to the central spike as the shaft we see (which is what I always thought it was). The picture of Luke underneath might have to be modified a bit (showing the conical feature to the right side, while keeping the area Luke is underneath flat), but then again the area he is under is as large as a few city blocks (compare the flat area to the city on the top), so no change would be necessary except for maybe the far off shots of Cloud City to show the flat ring around the lower base.
It would be interesting to see the shots with the Falcon before, during and after they pick up Luke, to see if any of the main shaft or other underside details could be included. Also, is it me or could something be done to the underside to show it extend a lot more into the background (more antennas, with the grid work extending back more, etc)?
I could also see that establishing shot of the main shaft exterior being modified (when Luke first falls out of the garbage door, he looks down and watches debris fall away), such as more skyscraper style pulsing red lights, etc.
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
Nice idea, Monro. Might be a bit more work than it's worth, though, for reasons you pointed out.
vaderios said:
Something like this for example..
Also see some schematics about the two cloud cities
Curse your sorceror's ways Darth vaderios, for making me want to throw in a few thoughts on all this, considering I've had some maddening computer glitches for a couple of days now, lol.
Anyway, I personally far prefer the 'thicker' proportions of the existing 'Cloud City', I'd have to say.
I think it's because it allows for many levels (and deep shaft areas) to be below the main city buildings on the top of it (which I prefer the look of too), as well as the extra layers of lighting around the main structure, as seen here -
Turns out it's actually a very different shape to the recent diagrams you posted here vaderios, and is a very elegant shape, just as it is, I reckon.
The actual 'stem' seems to be nicely 'tapered' too (with a 'ball'-shaped end to it, to my eyes), unlike the versions you've shown of it -
I'd have to say that this example of the movie version's basic shape is a reasonable representation, as far as diagrams go - http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8033/2220bespin20cloud20cit2.jpg
....by the way, if anyone knows....can you please mention what that object actually is that falls down beside the 'stem'? Was it meant to be something that fell out at the same time as Luke? I certainly can't figure out what it could be if that's the case, as there's nothing obvious in the footage....
But if it's just intended to be a 'random something' from the City above to give a sense of 'vertigo' to the shot, I don't think it's required, as the movement of the billowing clouds far below do that adequately anyway. And as it seems to still be visible to us as it passes the 'ball' of the huge structure's 'stem', it must be a pretty BIG something! I reckon it lessens the vast scale that the 'stem' matte could indicate though....
Anyway, 'colour-correction' aside, I haven't a clue if Adywan intends to tweak any of the shots featuring the underside of the City's structure, or not....but I've never found any of the existing angles to be a problem, if things do remain as they currently are.
The reason why, is that I've always seen this sequence of events as happening somewhere near the central portion of the City's underside, somewhere not too far away from the actual 'stem' in the scheme of things....and although the structure does indeed 'curve' upwards all-around from this central point....I reckon it's such a huge 'surface area' to begin with, that any 'curvature' begins very slightly at this near-central point before it begins to get really noticeable further outwards....
....and I've always been able to imagine that we don't see the wide 'stem' in any of these shots, as the action is always framed in such a way, over such a small portion of the massive City's underside, that it's merely offscreen a little ways, due to the direction/viewpoint that we see during the relevent shots. For instance, I'd say it's very plausable for the 'stem' to be just offscreen from where Luke is positioned in all these following brief shots (where the 'camera' is static, although there is a slight motion of the clouds in the distance) -
1. Luke looks downwards, and across from himself a little, presumably at the massive 'stem' that is shown immediately after this shot....
2. This 1st 'long-shot' of Luke comes just after the 'stem' shot, so as he's shown to still be in the same position on his thin support, I always presume the 'stem' is offscreen somewhere on the right of the following shots....
3. And here's the 2nd 'long-shot' of Luke....
4. And here's the 3rd 'long-shot' of Luke....
5. And here's the 4th 'long-shot' of Luke....
6. And here's the 5th 'long-shot' of Luke....
7. And here's the 6th 'long-shot' of Luke....
8. And here's the 7th 'long-shot' of Luke....
None of the slightly different 'camera-angles' in these shots spoils the notion that the 'stem' is offscreen on the right-hand side of this huge surface underneath.
And although it's subtle, there's certainly some distant 'curvature' of the underside already apparent in each of these shots too. It's very obvious in the 7th shot down, but if you were to try lining up a straight edge against the structure's 'distant edge' in this bigger example of the 8th shot, then it's possible to see that this is the case with all of the above shots - http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2584/screenshot124o.png
So I can certainly imagine that this action is located somewhere around the 'flatter', central location near the 'stem', which probably only starts to 'slope off' in a gradual way in all directions over the large surface area around it. Certainly, the fact that the distant outer edge seems almost level with the cloud level beyond, gives the impression that this can seem to be the case. So I reckon the existing 'angles' work fine without the need for any 'acute' ones needing to be added. (Also note that the breezy clouds in these shots above seem to be identical over the duration that we see them! Even down to the 'wisps' being the same, lol....)
Of course, there's a bit more variety in some of the other 'camera' angles during these scenes, that give a further sense of 'curvature' to the expansive underside anyway -
9. Such as this shot, where the Falcon is approaching Luke from the direction behind where we are looking towards him in the shots above. (Meaning that the 'stem' can still easily be imagined as now being offscreen on the left-hand side of the tiny Luke figure that Lando points to) Here's the start of the shot....
10. And here's the end of it....
11. And the same thoughts about an offscreen 'stem' can apply to this similar shot too. Here's the start of it....
12. And here's the end of it....
13. And the same can easily apply during this shot also. Here's the start of it....
14. And here's the end of it...
15. And as far as this shot of the approaching TIEs....well, they could be coming from anywhere that's in a generally opposite direction to where the Falcon approached Luke. I assume this, as the Falcon seems to eventually escape back in the same general direction that it initially came....certainly if you go by the lighting and cloud pattern seen in the top and bottom shots of the distant 'Cloud City' that I've posted here. Here's the start of it....
16. And here's the middle of it....
17. And here's the end of it....
Although the shot above is not a static shot of the underside in this instance, the long 'stem' can still be easily imagined to be offscreen somewhere due to the huge area that makes up the size of the City's underside. Like the previous shots, this one only covers a small portion of it surface, and so can tie in with that notion without any problems....
18. And the same goes for this next shot too. The Falcon only begins to move off from it's 'hovering' position at this point, after saving Luke, and seeing the approaching TIEs. It begins to veer to the right, and the long 'stem' that is presumed to be offscreen on the left of the Falcon would remain unseen. Here's the start of the shot....
19. And here's the end of it....
20. So the Falcon continues to turn around to the right, and we still only see a fraction of the overall surface of underneath the City....so the 'stem' would still be somewhere offscreen on the left of the frame. Here's the start of the shot....
21. And here's the end of it....
And although there is some 'camera-movement' during this shot above, it only moves to the right as well as pulling back slightly....so the long 'stem' on the left of the frame would still remain offscreen.
22. Our final look at 'Cloud City' is where the Falcon is now roughly heading back the way it came, to escape the on-coming TIEs seen in shots 15, 16, 17, 18, and 19. Now we can see the 'stem' again.... :)
So if Adywan doesn't do anything to the existing City underside angles, then they already work for me anyway, I'm glad to say. And just a couple of additional thoughts on some of these particular shots to finish off with -
1. Would making the likes of the red lights on the 'stem' and the outer edge 'flash' on and off, give more interest to the mattes, and 'sell' them a little more?
2. Is it possible to tweak the 'purple-ish' colouration of the City's underside that is seen in shots 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 18, and 19 above, so that they somewhat match nearer to the 'orangy-ish' colours of the other shots? (Not having a copy of the colour-corrected 'Empire', I don't know how they turned out in that)
3. This one's very trivial, but the little bit stuck on top of the Falcon's top guns doesn't seem the correct shape to me. Any chance of a minor tweak or removal there? Here's a bigger shot of it - http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8671/screenshot122.png
4. You'd need to watch the scene in motion, but I reckon it would be neat to see a hint of the TIEs somewhere behind the Falcon in shots 20 and 21 too, as it seems that they have caught up too suddenly in the shots that come afterwards.
Meant to say that while looking at the various underside shots, all the antennas and protrusions seem to stick out at an angle relevant to where they are situated on the 'curvature', rather than all being vertical in relation to each other. So it seems they follow the angle of the curve.
Oh, and I've found a second 'flipped' Bespin shot now vaderios. I know how you like those. Watch this space. :)
The purpleish color is gone in ady's CC version.
The tie fighter shots you mention really solve the angle/curvature problem or can be used as reference..
but in the cockpit shots the curvature of the superstructure gives us teh impression that there are two camera lenses at the same time with weird effects.. and yes camera lens distortion is an other thing from the tilt ;)
The only clue i have from the fallen piece is luke's blaster?
And yes like i said my model based on the wrong blueprints :)
-Angel
@ ImperialFighter:
That makes a lot of "convenient" of screen stern, don't you think.
Forgive me but for saying this but, aren't you going too far trying to make the shots acceptable regardless the common sense?
Personaly I think they made it all flat because it's easier to do, that's all.
And so it can be improved, the stern should be seen in some of the shots as well as the slope…
savmagoett said:
That makes a lot of "convenient" of screen stern, don't you think.
Sure. At the end of the day, if Adywan plans to add the 'stem' into some of these shots in some way, then great, and I'm sure it'll turn out terrific. It's just that if he doesn't, then I'm satisfied that the existing shots will still work well enough, whether it seems convenient for the 'stem' to be offscreen throughout, or not. None of the mattes are totally flat though. There is some slight 'curvature' to them all, as things stand.
vaderios, thanks for confirming that those 'purple-ish' Cloud City shots were sorted in the 'colour-corrected' version. Glad to hear that fix was done. :)
Don't think that was Luke's blaster by the way, as it seems to still be in his holster afterwards. I've still no idea what it is.
I had always assumed the 'thing' falling in the shot of the stem was Luke's hand.
I figured it fell down there when it was cut off, landed in the same general area that Luke ended up in, and when the outer hatch opened it went bye-bye.
ImperialFighter said:
There is some slight 'curvature' to them all, as things stand.
Again that is a "negative/bad" curvature.
A curvature from the lens isnt represent a real curvature.. only can create illusions and paradoxes
-Angel
I had always thought it was his hand. But according to the script:
There is an ominous cracking sound from the base of the weather vane and a piece breaks off, falling into the clouds far below.
Even though the EU doesn't count, doesn't someone find Luke's hand on the ground later on in one of the books?
I always thought it was his hand. From another vent that it landed in possibly.
Wait, why does Bespin have ground? I thought it was a gas giant.
But yeah if the script says that, I guess we can assume that's what it's supposed to be. One major improvement that could be made then is to make it more obvious what it is.
Also, why do you need external sources for the shape of cloud city? There are several very nice shots that together show exactly what it looks like in the film.
Tobar said:
I had always thought it was his hand. But according to the script:
There is an ominous cracking sound from the base of the weather vane and a piece breaks off, falling into the clouds far below.
I always thought it was, if not his hand, his lighsaber (the thing falls fast).
Though it can be his hand still holding his lightsaber... But, in the last case the lightsaber shouldn't be switched off...
The only thing that bothers me anyway in all this is the shout of luke when he has his hand cut. I'm sure any one of us would have no time to feel or realise anything if a lightsaber stroke cutted our own hand...
... Hey Ripplin ! How do you say:"J' en mettrais ma main à couper" in English ?... :)
The EMPIRE STRIKES BACK Score: "All-Sourced" Restoration & Sonic Achievement.
ABC said:
Hey Ripplin ! How do you say:"J' en mettrais ma main à couper" in English ?... :)
Hmm, that's a new one. Something like "I'll put my hand out to cut/to be cut." Or "please cut off my hand!" :p
ABC said:
I'm sure any one of us would have no time to feel or realise anything if a lightsaber stroke cutted our own hand...
I'll put my hand out to cut about it ! (French expression)
;) Thanks.
The EMPIRE STRIKES BACK Score: "All-Sourced" Restoration & Sonic Achievement.
Ripplin said:
Even though the EU doesn't count, doesn't someone find Luke's hand on the ground later on in one of the books?
Vader retrieves Lukes hand and lightsaber from the surface of Bespin. The hand was put into storage along with the lightsaber and used to create a Clone of Luke in "The Last Command" by Joruus C'boath.
However, further retconning now says that the hand was found in the bowels of Cloud City by an Ugnaught AND that Bespin has no surface and is a gas giant... Idiots...
Anyway, this makes that random object falling down from the hole after Luke lands on the weather vane ambiguous at best even though it should be Luke's hand/saber.
The impossible is what Rogues do best...
So perhaps as a late change, Ady could change the object to something a bit clearer looking, that something being a hand gripping the saber hilt? It'd be nice getting clearer closure with a weapon so profound in the saga.
Rogue Leader said:
Vader retrieves Lukes hand and lightsaber from the surface of Bespin. The hand was put into storage along with the lightsaber and used to create a Clone of Luke in "The Last Command" by Joruus C'boath.
However, further retconning now says that the hand was found in the bowels of Cloud City by an Ugnaught AND that Bespin has no surface and is a gas giant... Idiots...
Anyway, this makes that random object falling down from the hole after Luke lands on the weather vane ambiguous at best even though it should be Luke's hand/saber.
The first is an EU statement, that doesnt count :P
Well i always thought bespin was a gas giant even the planet from above was like all the rest in ESB... white with clouds(thanks the variation)
All the falling concept was to show depth and define what is bottom and what is top..
So simply remove the no sense falling object or show a visible broken piece from the city..(like an antenna piece like Tobar said) in Luke's close up shot.
IF it was his saber/hand wouldnt be following luke during his vein fall?
isnt the hand/saber was off several time before luke fell?
makes sense?
Monroville said:
Also, is it me or could something be done to the underside to show it extend a lot more into the background (more antennas, with the grid work extending back more, etc)?
Well assuming that luke fell into one of the many holes/tubes/veins then there should be visible hatches/doors in the rest of the area..
Plus again the live action set piece is different from the extended matte.
-Angel
I hate how they change the history/timelines/characters all the time. Obi-Wan is Owen's brother! I don't care what they say! :p
vaderios said:
IF it was his saber/hand wouldnt be following luke during his vein fall?
isnt the hand/saber was off several time before luke fell?
makes sense?
Not really making sense no. But I'll try.
So if it was his hand it wouldn't follow him because it was off for quite a while before Luke jumped. Unless this is what you said, in which case; we don't know how cloud city works. There's a billion not conceived of cases that could make his hand fall in a different vent close enough to be seen when it falls down, and spend enough time there to only fall after Luke has been hanging around for a bit.
But as the script has revealed it is likely not his hand. Adywan, working on an HD version and all should be able to tell what it is anyways.
BmB said:
Adywan, working on an HD version and all should be able to tell what it is anyways.
No clue..
I checked it on HD
Unless is something like the TIE shuttle. When you see the actual prop you got it what it was ;) and not from the movie
-Angel
Remember gang that Luke fell into a garbage disposal/vent; it is conceivable that the object was someone's junk that was sucked into the vent along with Luke.
EDIT: yeah, that tunnel is pretty clean for junk... >:)
I do like the idea of replacing the object with an antenna or something more recognizable.
“You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”
– Homer Simpson
