STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 1191

DominicCobb said:

kk650 said:

doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.

On the contrary it seems like you are not willing to entertain the idea that restoring something to the original version might be better. I'm not the type of guy who thinks everything should be restored, hell, I think I've questioned before if this project is trying to be a preservation (can't remember for what reason, probably colors). But is it so hard to think that ady and me and others might just think that the ESB framing is better?

Also, this wasn't a mistake. Kersh, the DP, and the set crew knew exactly what they were doing when they extended the cockpit and framed the shot the way they did. "Ran out of time when they were shooting"? Are you kidding me? This shot would have been planned before shooting even began. If any film ran out of time it was ANH.

Take a look again at those two cockpit shots again, from ANH and ESB. What's been changed is the set (which is better, by the way, more detailed and undoubtedly more expensive), and the framing, ever so slightly. Yeah, you can see more of the window, but you know that the window's curved, right? It's not just perpendicular? Don't you think they knew what they were doing when they framed the shot? Another thing that's changed is Han and Chewie are farther apart. This is obviously to give space where we can see Leia and 3PO more clearly.

Finally, and probably the most important point, the cropped shot is of lower quality. That should be the first, last, and only reason you need to accept restoring it back.

If this doesn't get through to you, then whatever, so be it. But accept that this is what ady is doing and move on with it.

 Plus, considering ESB went way over budget and schedule, I don't think Kershner was really worried as much as keeping to schedule as he was with making it the best film possible.

doubleofive said:

kk650 said:

doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.

I'm pretty sure this project is FOCUSED on such things. This particular item a late change from the 2nd iteration of the Special Edition that Adywan doesn't care for, and it is his prerogative to change it back.

 It certainly is his perogative and I 100% respect that.

I see where a lot of you are coming from, seeing all that extra information on the sides and detail is very cool but in the context of maintaining the film's visual narrative and visual consistency between the size of the Star Wars cockpit and the Empire Strikes Back cockpit, I think GL did the right thing by cropping the ESB cockpit frames to make the cockpit feel cramped like it was in Star Wars.

DominicCobb said:

kk650 said:

doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.

On the contrary it seems like you are not willing to entertain the idea that restoring something to the original version might be better. I'm not the type of guy who thinks everything should be restored, hell, I think I've questioned before if this project is trying to be a preservation (can't remember for what reason, probably colors). But is it so hard to think that ady and me and others might just think that the ESB framing is better?

Also, this wasn't a mistake. Kersh, the DP, and the set crew knew exactly what they were doing when they extended the cockpit and framed the shot the way they did. "Ran out of time when they were shooting"? Are you kidding me? This shot would have been planned before shooting even began. If any film ran out of time it was ANH.

Take a look again at those two cockpit shots again, from ANH and ESB. What's been changed is the set (which is better, by the way, more detailed and undoubtedly more expensive), and the framing, ever so slightly. Maybe you can see more of the window, but you know that the window's curved, right? It's not just perpendicular? Don't you think they knew what they were doing when they framed the shot? Also, it looks to me like you can see more of the curve in the ANH shot. It's just better lit in ESB. Another thing that's changed is Han and Chewie are farther apart. This is obviously to give space where we can see Leia and 3PO more clearly.

Finally, and probably the most important point, the cropped shot is of lower quality. That should be the first, last, and only reason you need to accept restoring it back.

If this doesn't get through to you, then whatever, so be it. But accept that this is what ady is doing and move on with it.

When I said they ran out of time, I was suggesting that they may not have had time to carefully review the shots they had to see whether inconvenient things were appearing in the corners, as has happened in this case IMHO.

I am very much open to the idea that the original is better. If I was not open to that fact, would I have replaced Jedi Rocks with Lapti Nek or replaced Hayden Christensen with Sebastian Shaw in my Return of the Jedi Semi-Specialised Edition? I am not seeing that same openmindedness in the other direction from some people here though. I can't remember the last time I read a post here apart from myself giving credit to GL for one of the good changes he made to the Special Edition, the focus is always on what he did wrong.

As you say, the edge of the window in the top left corner is better lit in the uncropped ESB frame, making it much more noticable than in the Star Wars frame, where it is in shadow. That it is so noticable is the whole problem, which is why it needed to be cropped IMHO. They should have lit it so it was in shadow and wasn't visible like with Star Wars. Framing trumps detail every time for me, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

People will always get through to me because I listen and am willing to engage with other people and their ideas. All I ask is that others are willing to do the same and can accept that not everything GL changed/added to the Special Editions was bad. I'll leave it at that, I've expressed my opinion I don't want to derail this thread any further, this is Adywan's project so of course he has the final say. He should try to be a bit more respectful of the opinion of others though.

kk650 said:

DominicCobb said:

kk650 said:

doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.

On the contrary it seems like you are not willing to entertain the idea that restoring something to the original version might be better. I'm not the type of guy who thinks everything should be restored, hell, I think I've questioned before if this project is trying to be a preservation (can't remember for what reason, probably colors). But is it so hard to think that ady and me and others might just think that the ESB framing is better?

Also, this wasn't a mistake. Kersh, the DP, and the set crew knew exactly what they were doing when they extended the cockpit and framed the shot the way they did. "Ran out of time when they were shooting"? Are you kidding me? This shot would have been planned before shooting even began. If any film ran out of time it was ANH.

Take a look again at those two cockpit shots again, from ANH and ESB. What's been changed is the set (which is better, by the way, more detailed and undoubtedly more expensive), and the framing, ever so slightly. Maybe you can see more of the window, but you know that the window's curved, right? It's not just perpendicular? Don't you think they knew what they were doing when they framed the shot? Also, it looks to me like you can see more of the curve in the ANH shot. It's just better lit in ESB. Another thing that's changed is Han and Chewie are farther apart. This is obviously to give space where we can see Leia and 3PO more clearly.

Finally, and probably the most important point, the cropped shot is of lower quality. That should be the first, last, and only reason you need to accept restoring it back.

If this doesn't get through to you, then whatever, so be it. But accept that this is what ady is doing and move on with it.

When I said they ran out of time, I was suggesting that they may not have had time to carefully review the shots they had to see whether inconvenient things were appearing in the corners, as has happened in this case IMHO.

I am very much open to the idea that the original is better. If I was not open to that fact, would I have replaced Jedi Rocks with Lapti Nek or replaced Hayden Christensen with Sebastian Shaw in my Return of the Jedi Semi-Specialised Edition? I am not seeing that same openmindedness in the other direction from some people here though. I can't remember the last time I read a post here apart from myself giving credit to GL for one of the good changes he made to the Special Edition, the focus is always on what he did wrong.

As you say, the edge of the window in the top left corner is better lit in the uncropped ESB frame, making it much more noticable than in the Star Wars frame, where it is in shadow. That it is so noticable is the whole problem, which is why it needed to be cropped IMHO. They should have lit it so it was in shadow and wasn't visible like with Star Wars. Framing trumps detail every time for me, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

People will always get through to me because I listen and am willing to engage with other people and their ideas. All I ask is that others are willing to do the same and can accept that not everything GL changed/added to the Special Editions was bad. I'll leave it at that, I've expressed my opinion I don't want to derail this thread any further, this is Adywan's project so of course he has the final say. He should try to be a bit more respectful of the opinion of others though.

I know what you mean by running out of time, it's just not possible that was the case. No shot or framing of shots is haphazard. If you look at the storyboard for that scene I'm sure the shot looks the same. 

This site being devoted to the original trilogy should tip you off that many will not like any changes that George made. But we who do like some of George's changes are not constantly talking about them, because there is no reason to bring them up. Remember ady is using the Blu-ray as a source and is keeping many changes. There's just no reason to discuss those.

That's your opinion and I respect that. I'll stop now as well, there's nothing more to be said. We've stated our peace.

adywan said:

Bingowings said:

I do hope Ady will be as OCD when it comes to making the Executor bridge in ROTJ look as good as the one in ESB (what is it with 80's sequels and buggering up hand-me-down sets?).

 Well, that's the real trick, isn't it. ;) But that bridge is going to be almost impossible to get it to match the better ESB one, thanks mainly to this guy stuck down the bottom, here....

ALL INFERIOR SET DECORATION IS TO BE CONSIDERED AN ENEMY OF THE DALEKS AND MARMALISED!!

adywan said:

kk650 said:

brash_stryker said:

People only see a difference with crampedness when comparing cropped with uncropped. This notion that ESB has ALWAYS looked like the camera is shooting from outside the ship, baffles me. As far as I'm aware, you don't see anything in frame that indicates there ought to be the window "spokes" in frame too, therefore our view is certainly inside the glass (or transparisteel).

The only way that might not work for you is if you fixate on a bulky videocamera not fitting inside the window, and in that case, YOU'RE the one breaking the fourth wall by even thinking about equipment and film crew being present, rather than just getting caught up in the fantasy. In fiction, we are disembodied spectators.

The edge of the window frame on the top left corner of the uncropped ESB frame does draw attention to itself IMHO, it implies a window that the camera is shooting through, hence subconsiously reminding the viewer that its a set and they're watching a film. I don't get that feeling when looking at the cockpit frame from Star Wars.

Nobody ever tries to break their own fourth wall, not unless they're specifically focusing on the edges of frames and looking for mistakes the filmmakers made, but if you leave an uncropped shot like the one from ESB that looks like a set, subconciously people are picking up on that. Will it be enough to break the illusion? Probably not, but I believe it will lessen their appreciation of that film, even if they themselves don't realise it. Is that a worthwhile sacrifice to make for a little more information on the sides and slightly more detail? Everybody will have their own opinion on that but for me, maintaining the illusion is the most important thing of all, extra information on the sides be damned. GL seems to agree with me on that.

 What? Are you thinking that the window frame we see on the edge of the frame is an outer frame from the front? That is the INSIDE frame we are seeing, not a frame from the outside. This is the frame section we are seeing in both shots and NOT one of the forward frames:



You seem to be  seeing things that are not there. I've proved that the camera position and the framing is EXACTLY the same in both the uncropped ESB shot and the ANH shot, yet you still claim it looks like it is being filmed from outside the window in ESB, but not in ANH?

kk650 said:

I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree to disagree about the curved frame of the window being more visible in the ANH shot, to my eyes it is clearly more visible on the uncropped ESB shot, hence why I believe the cropped framing is better. The breaking the fourth wall argument is in MY OPINION very much valid and you thinking that it is invalid is YOUR OPINION, not absolute fact like you seem to believe from your statement.

Your work on Star Wars Revisited was well done but you might want to reign in the ego a touch and show a little more respect for the opinions of others, your opinion is worth no more than anybody elses.

 So, even though it proves that the framing is the same, my refusal to go with YOUR opinion means i have an ego and should show more respect? It seems to be more the other way around about the ego. YOU can't accept the fact that you are wrong about the frame. It IS your opinion that it breaks the fourth wall compared to ANH. But it is FACT that they are both exactly the same so the fourth wall cannot be being broken. If more of the windows were being shown in ESB, then i could possibly agree with you. But there is NO difference apart from the scale of the cockpit.

You are entitled to your opinion and all i was doing was pointing out that what you were saying about the framing/ window frame, camera position etc was in fact incorrect. That does NOT mean that i have an ego problem.

kk650 said:

I see where a lot of you are coming from, seeing all that extra information on the sides and detail is very cool but in the context of maintaining the film's visual narrative and visual consistency between the size of the Star Wars cockpit and the Empire Strikes Back cockpit, I think GL did the right thing by cropping the ESB cockpit frames to make the cockpit feel cramped like it was in Star Wars.

 Well Han did modify the falcon between ANH & ESB ( Adding the extra landing gears etc) so it's feasible to think he would have made modifications to the cockpit to make it less cramped ;)

I'm not referring to that frame but the very first one you put in the screencap comparison, where you see all the characters front on and the edge of the window is on the top left corner of the frame, as i'm sure you know. Setting up straw men by connecting my breaking the wall argument to the incorrect frame doesn't really help your argument all that much. You think that that the frame i'm actually refering to doesn't look like a set, I do, GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

When you start using grand statements like 'the fourth wall argument is invalid' then you clearly believe your opinion is fact and irreputable for some reason. Only someone with a very large ego acts like that. And again in your reply you again prove my point when you say you are 'pointing out that what you were saying about the framing/ window frame, camera position etc was in fact incorrect.' when that is again simply your opinion with no facts to back it. You clearly have a very big ego to be making statements like that all the time. I'm surprised your head doesn't explode its gotten so large.

I'll leave you to make your grandiose statements of fact and rule your own little fiefdom in peace. I've got my own releases to get back to.

Aren't people supposed to have huge chocolate egos this time of year? 

This always happens, months of "why isn't there any news?" followed by an impressive display of hard work achieved, followed by griping, followed by me being even more amazing. When will it end?

<rant>

I think the real question here shouldn't be about framing, 4th wall, etc.  The real question should be, is anyone honestly going to enjoy the film any LESS because of the change?

Yes, we are all Star Wars techies/geeks, otherwise we wouldn't be here.  However, at the end of the day if changing from cropped frame to full frame is going to destroy your enjoyment of the film then don't watch the edit.

However, I strongly believe that for all of the technical discussions that have been had in this thread, at the end of the day when the edit is finally released, nobody is going to care about the arguments.  Instead, they will be watching one of the best interpretations/adaptations of ESB available and will be fully immersed in the experience.

Without the technical discussions, the edit would not be what it is.  That is absolutely and unequivocally true.  However, it is Ady's edit and I highly doubt that anyone who has been waiting for it is going to enjoy the film any less in full-frame vs. cropped.

</rant>

adywan said:

kk650 said:

I'm not referring to that frame but the very first one you put in the screencap comparison, where you see all the characters front on and the edge of the window is on the top left corner of the frame, as i'm sure you know. Setting up straw men by connecting my breaking the wall argument to the incorrect frame doesn't really help your argument all that much. You think that that the frame i'm actually refering to doesn't look like a set, I do, GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

When you start using grand statements like 'the fourth wall argument is invalid' then you clearly believe your opinion is fact and irreputable for some reason. Only someone with a very large ego acts like that. And again in your reply you again prove my point when you say you are 'pointing out that what you were saying about the framing/ window frame, camera position etc was in fact incorrect.' when that is again simply your opinion with no facts to back it. You clearly have a very big ego to be making statements like that all the time. I'm surprised your head doesn't explode its gotten so large.

I'll leave you to make your grandiose statements of fact and rule your own little fiefdom in peace. I've got my own releases to get back to.

 I know that wasn't the shot you were talking about. I posted that shot to show the exact frame you are seeing from a different angle because it seemed like you were thinking that the frame in the uncropped shot from the front viewing was actually one of the front circular cockpit windows and not the inside frame which made it look like you were seeing it from outside the cockpit instead of inside . like how it really is..

But my statement WAS indeed fact. I showed you that you see exactly the same sections of the cockpit inside the frame of the picture. It wasn't merely my opinion, but i backed the statement up with hard facts. I showed you a comparison between the ANH cockpit and the ESB cockpit and they were the same apart from the inner scale.

Funny how, when people disagree with someone, they can only come back with personal insults.

Bingowings said:

Aren't people supposed to have huge chocolate egos this time of year? 

 Yeh, i have a Cadbury's Cream Ego ;)

No personal insults, your ego is fact as you're so fond of stating, it is there for all to see, the posts are yours and the tone of those replies and this reply speak for itself, the disdain you show for opinions you don't share, as if your opinion is somehow worth more than others. Disagree with me if you want but do so respecting the opinions of others. Is that so hard for you? It seems so. Try a little humility for a change, you might find it refreshing and good for the soul to boot.

Why you bring up a totally different frame to the one I say is breaking the fourth wall is beyond me. You have no argument against my breaking the fourth wall argument, you just keep changing subject/setting up straw men. If that's the best you can do then there's no point continuing this. Do what you want to do and good luck.

kk650 said:

GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices. Not that I'm saying this framing issues is a misguided choice. Ultimately it's moot to me as it's barely any different. 

To imply that Ady is being egotistical and pigheaded though, despite it being you that isn't taking FACTS on board, is the pot calling the kettle black. 

Ady has backed up his own opinion with facts and what he has said is right there in the screenshot for your own eyes to see. Yet you keep parroting on that everyone else is wrong and we're all just unwilling to accept change.

Edit: and stop harping on about that screenshot. He didn't post it to prove his point. He posted it because he thought YOU had made a mistake in mistaking one curve for another. He was being informative.

There is more than enough info in the shot from the front to disprove everything you say. Ady is not claiming his opinions are facts. He is claiming facts are facts. His opinions are backed up by said facts and yours aren't. Simple.

brash_stryker said:

kk650 said:

GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.

What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.

Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc.  I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.

I would say the guy doing all the work is entitled to the last say, and also the option of having the biggest ego if he so chooses to have or not. I would say that Adywan is fairly benevolent in this regard to listening to opinions expressed in the forum, and providing detailed reasoning for his decisions. 

Everyone else is entitled to start their own edit with their own ideas if they so choose. 

Kapheen said:

I would say the guy doing all the work is entitled to the last say, and also the option of having the biggest ego if he so chooses to have or not. I would say that Adywan is fairly benevolent in this regard to listening to opinions expressed in the forum, and providing detailed reasoning for his decisions. 

Everyone else is entitled to start their own edit with their own ideas if they so choose. 

Which is exactly what i'm doing. However I don't agree that doing my own semi-specialised releases entitles me to have a big ego in my own thread and belittling the opinions of others with statements of supposed fact. He clearly believes it does. Interesting interpretation of benevolance though, not the word that comes to mind when I read the replies to my posts, arrogance more like.

We'll leave it at that and I wish him all the luck in the world with this release, when it finally does see the light of day. In the meantime, my own star wars releases await.

kk650 said:

brash_stryker said:

kk650 said:

GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.

What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.

Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc.  I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.

Now THAT is a strawman argument if I ever saw one. You have  taken my stance on his many misguided choices and made out I think everything he does is automatically wrong.  Just because I stated I disagree with SOME misguided choices. I think I made that perfectly clear, but you chose to bastardise what I said to support your own points. Classic straw man. Maybe you need to look up what a Straw man is, as despite accusing Ady earlier it's you doing it.

I liked a lot of SE changes. Why then, would I like Revisited if I didn't? My point was that for you to consider your argument won because GL "agrees" with you doesn't mean anything. Your point should stand on its own merit without bringing GL into it - which also makes you a hypocrite as you JUST said something similar to me!

And now you're not addressing people's previous points on why you're wrong and are just using the above manipulative tactics as a distraction. Poor form.

adywan said:

kk650 said:

brash_stryker said:

kk650 said:

GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.

What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.

Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc.  I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.

 Which, if you read one of my earlier posts, is EXACTLY what people are doing in here. If i was of the miondset that everything George is doing is wrong THEN WHY WOULD I BE KEEPING A LOT OF THE CHANGES HE MADE? If i was of the closed mindset that everything in the original was better, then why would i be even doing these edits? Wouldn't i just stick to doing a preservation of the theatrical versions and make NO changes to it?

Noted. I don't agree with you about the uncropped ESB frame that breaks the fourth wall for me but like me you have included some of his changes and I respect you for that. In that at least we agree.

I have not posted here in ages, but seeing this pointless argument going on I just get the feeling that every once in a while there must a guy (or a girl) like this just pissing on everyone. In his belief in Adywan's huge ego, his attitude seems by far the worst to me. I have been following these boards for more than 5-6 years, and I have never perceived Ady as arrogant, but of course we are all different. And that is anyway your main argument kk650, YOUR view that Ady has an ego size of the New York, but since no other agrees, either your are mistaken or everyone else is (or just call us Adywan nut hugghers, and be  done with it).

Take your pick, and than decide on the ego issue.

PS,

I really hope to finish my ANH: R - A Stronger Vader re-edit, by the time of the ESB:R release ;)

brash_stryker said:

kk650 said:

brash_stryker said:

kk650 said:

GL agrees with me, hence the cropping, we agree to disagree, there's not much left to be said.

So would JarJar Binks. What's your point? The fact you're using such logic on THIS FORUM of all places carries no weight at all. This forum only exists because of George's misguided choices.

What you've said here has exactly proven my point. Essentially what you're saying is because GL agrees, you disagree, without weighing the merit of the change he's made. I know for a fact that there are others on this forum that are able to see beyong this viewpoint but I suspect that many will not be able to be found here in this thread, where every change is treated is sceptisism at best and disdain at worst.

Just because this forum was formed in response to GL and his SE changes doesn't mean that we can't move beyond seeing things so black and white, whatever changes GL does is wrong, how it originally was is right etc. etc.  I want to believe that people here are openminded enough to move beyond that frame of mind and give him credit for some of the changes which are improvements IMHO.

Now THAT is a strawman argument if I ever saw one. You have  taken my stance on his many misguided choices and made out I think everything he does is automatically wrong.  Just because I stated I disagree with SOME misguided choices. I think I made that perfectly clear, but you chose to bastardise what I said to support your own points. Classic straw man. Maybe you need to look up what a Straw man is, as despite accusing Ady earlier it's you doing it.

I liked a lot of SE changes. Why then, would I like Revisited if I didn't? My point was that for you to consider your argument won because GL "agrees" with you doesn't mean anything. Your point should stand on its own merit without bringing GL into it - which also makes you a hypocrite as you JUST said something similar to me!

And now you're not addressing people's previous points on why you're wrong and are just using the above manipulative tactics as a distraction. Poor form.

We're not going to agree here Brash, you give little value to GL and his choices, I do, a lot, he created Star Wars unlike you and me, so in my mind that gives his creative decision a lot of weight. My point stands on its own, the edge of the window frame in the top left corner of the first uncropped screencap where all four characters are visible from the front is there for all to see, making the shot look like a set, breaking the fourth wall.

Its not something you can argue about, either its an issue for you or not. It is for me, as it was for GL. The opinion of Adywan and yourself doesn't weigh even near as much as my own and that of GL combined, no offense. Let's agree to disagree and move on. I don't want to stink up this thread any further than it has been.