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Remake the Prequels — Page 3

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I don't really have a problem showing Tatooine because if one does something interesting with it and it demonstrates something about Anakin's character than it can be worth it. Tatooine in my current draft is not quite the complete dump it is come ANH. Its a planet with potential as there's a growing economic interest, a time before a devastating war and 20+ years of Imperial neglect will ensure it never becomes more than the barren rock Luke Skywalker is so accustomed to. 

It ties into why Luke and Anakin having similar origins can work if one his able to highlight the contrasts. In my version, the latter is not really a bored farm kid longing for adventure like his son will be. He's part of a farm that's doing relatively well, a stable spice freighter job that gives him occasional flying time, and enjoyable friendship with his coworker Carima. His dissatisfaction comes from a feeling that he should be doing more for other people, a sense of duty in doing some kind of public service for those who need help.

Anakin is, in a sense, the middle class kid who gave up a decent life to sign up for the peace corp (or alternatively joined the armed services) because he wanted to make a difference. He made the sacrifice of a stable and peaceful existence to indeed follow Obi-Wan on that damn fool idealistic crusade because he was an idealist, a fact that allows him to fall so hard, so badly because his hopes were so high. 

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NeverarGreat said:

 it could be that Anakin made the Kessel run in it during the Clone Wars, and nobody has ever beaten his time. 

This was my thinking as well, although not sure how I would work that in with the current storyline I'm working on.

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Mrebo said:

I know you just want to make lots of money by selling Falcon toys! ;)

You got me.

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If someone decides to actually take up this project, I would leave that up to them.  As much as I would love to go out and direct something like this, my busy life as a student would make it difficult to impossible.  I'll stick to writing for now and let someone else worry about how to make it look good.  XD  I would assume it would not result in a trip to Tunisia though, but then again, you never know.

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For those of you who have Obi Wan as protagonist, what do you see as his character arc?

The blue elephant in the room.

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I'm not using Obi-wan in my version, but I'd expect from the OT that he fought in the clone wars because he was an idealist who genuinely believed that he was making a difference, which is why he became a Jedi, and also a general. He became a highly decorated war veteran, but was reckless in his "crusade" for justice. He discovered Anakin Skywalker, and realized that here was a chance to convert a truly powerful individual to his cause, and so he rushed Anakin's training in an attempt to bring him quickly to his full power. This fails, and when Anakin turns to the Dark Side, Obi-wan learns to take things slower, and gains patience. He goes to Tatooine to watch over Luke, and decides not to interfere in his life the way he did with Anakin. However, events force him to go back to his old methods of teaching, where he gets results at the expense of the student's understanding. He teaches Luke a great deal in the short time available, but realizes that he isn't the best teacher for him, and sacrifices himself to give Luke time to escape the Death Star. That's his story in a nutshell, at least from my point of view!

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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To me, Obi-Wan's character arc is fully explained in the OT.  "You are reckless."  "So was I, if you remember."   Obi-Wan starts out as a kind of hot-headed jedi who lets his feelings get the better of him, similar to Luke running away from his training after getting the vision of Han and Leia.  He jumps into training Anakin without much thought because he is emotionally attached to Anakin and wants him to succeed, without thinking of the consequences.  Over the course of the story Obi-Wan shifts from the hot-headed young Jedi to the wise man we meet in ANH.  How exactly that happens.  Well I haven't completely worked that out yet.

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Darth Lucas said:

To me, Obi-Wan's character arc is fully explained in the OT.  "You are reckless."  "So was I, if you remember."   Obi-Wan starts out as a kind of hot-headed jedi who lets his feelings get the better of him, similar to Luke running away from his training after getting the vision of Han and Leia.  He jumps into training Anakin without much thought because he is emotionally attached to Anakin and wants him to succeed, without thinking of the consequences.  Over the course of the story Obi-Wan shifts from the hot-headed young Jedi to the wise man we meet in ANH.  How exactly that happens.  Well I haven't completely worked that out yet.

I have something similar going on in my mine, though Obi-Wan is more of a deuteragonist with Anakin being the protagonist. 

Kenobi has matured somewhat from his reckless youth, but there's still a thoughtlessness to him albeit surrounded by good intentions. He grows as the films go on, learning to consider and evaluate his decisions, but the tragedy is that his student remains his biggest blind spot. He takes on Anakin as a student without considering there may Jedi Masters who would be a better fit, allows himself to get blinded by how troubled Anakin is getting because of the progress the latter's made, and neglects some of his duties as a teacher because he's so focused on living up the example set by Yoda by acting as a leader to various Jedi. 

He's an intelligent, moral, and loyal knight, but his short sided view on things proves to a real problem and is a source of emotional distance between them.  Kenobi's demonstrations of value in believing in things like the Republic and trusting the in the light side of the force ultimately come across to Anakin as trusting in blind faith. And Skywalker internalizing and compartmentalizing so many of the traumas or troubled emotions is mistaken by Ben to be him being a strong jedi and rising above them. 

Obi-Wan becomes a better leader and Jedi throughout the films, but never quite improves as a teacher until its too late. 

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Random idea sharing time.   I decided to watch the Star Wars trilogy the other day for inspiration/ideas and one of the things that struck me this time around was how Obi-Wan describes Jedi.  He said "I was once a Jedi Knight the same as your father."  Then in Empire he says "There you will learn from Yoda, the Jedi Master who instructed me."  Rather than just saying "Jedi"  he specifies "Knight"  or "Master"  This doesn't strike me as a difference in rank, more a difference in type. I look to Christianity to explain what I mean.  To me, Jedi Knights would be the equivalent of, well, knights.  Jedi Masters to me are the equivalent of monks, or priests.  They all belong to the same religion, but do different things.  I'm thinking of having the Jedi culture be quite similar to this.  Jedi Masters are priests and scholars, trying to uncover the secrets and mysteries of the Force.  The Knights use the Force to protect the Galaxy from evils.  It is the Masters' jobs to train the Knights.  The knights do not train each other.  This makes for an extremely unusual request when Obi-Wan asks to train Anakin.  They finally arrive at the Jedi Temple after their Episode I adventures.  Obi-Wan goes before the council of Masters to request Anakin be trained.  Yoda and the masters can express their unwillingness to train Anakin due to his fear and anger similarly to in TPM.  Obi-Wan then requests that he may train Anakin.  Yoda, after much deliberation, allows it, thinking that perhaps Anakin's unusual abilities may benefit from less than normal training.  This would be the first time a knight has trained another knight in the history of the Jedi Order.  "I thought I could instruct him as well as Yoda.  I was wrong."  We then end Episode I with some kind of Jedi initiation ceremony, whereby Anakin swears allegiance to the Jedi, and Obi-Wan gives him the name Skywalker.

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@Darth Lucas: I like the idea of different sub-orders within the Jedi hierarchy. Do you think there would be any additional ones besides Knight and Master? I'm thinking that if I "burrowed" (hehe) the idea of various branches of the Jedi lineage, that I would include some never-before-seen kind of Jedi in my prequels to differentiate them from the OT and offer something new...but I would try to make sure it is done in a way that renders them extinct somehow by the events of ANH.

Jedi Knights seem to be the most martial (but at the same time the most diplomatic) kind of light-side Force user. The Dark Side analogue would of course be Darth Vader. They are the business end, the ones who travel around the galaxy and either end wars or (in the case of the Dark Side) start them. A Jedi Knight has been established as a Jedi who can navigate diplomatic/social situations with powers of negotiation (bolstered by the occasional use of the mind trick)...but who is not afraid to pull out a lightsaber and start slicing away enemies, but only if that is an absolute necessity. Sith Knights tend to be more inclined to the combat option than their Jedi counterparts, and even their "diplomacy" usually entails blackmail or intimidation.

Jedi Masters are more cerebral. They never use lightsabers because they are not expected to engage in any sort of combat outside of self-defense (which even Light Side Force powers are supposed to allow, correct?). The Dark Side equivalent of this would appear to be the Emperor, the pre-eminent Sith Master. An individual who considers the Dark Side of the Force as a tool with which to dominate the galaxy.

So what's left? Jedi Navigators who use their powers to more effectively pilot starships through hyperspace? Jedi Alchemists who use their Force abilities to create objects that can imbue a user with special powers of some kind? Jedi Scribes who collect information to fill up Holocrons?

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/star-wars-prequels-return-of-the-jedi_n_3313793.html

Here Lucas explains before Return of the Jedi how Yoda isn't a "real" Jedi. Yoda was never supposed to fight, instead he was a guru. Making Jedi Knights only one aspect of the Order is a good idea in my opinion. However, it would seem we need a new designation for the Jedi religion, if the Jedi are only the militarized crusaders. Perhaps Disciples of the Force, or something. I don't know. Order of the Force? Perhaps it doesn't need a name. I guess Jedi is a good name, as Yoda was referred to by Obi-wan as a Jedi Master. I just want the Jedi Order to not be all in one building on Coruscant. Yoda should always have lived on Dagobah, and be one of the less well known of the Jedi. That way he is simply never found in the Jedi Purge, for Obi-wan never told Anakin where to find him. It could be that Obi-wan trained Anakin without Yoda's approval, and so he didn't want Anakin ever seeking out Yoda and blowing his cover.

One other point: Jedi should be rare, even in the Prequels. I think that the assumption in the prequels should be that only humans use the Force, so that Luke (and the audience) would not expect a little alien dude to be a Jedi Master, like it was originally intended.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
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Agreed on there being all kinds of Jedi. I've been considering Knights, Masters, Healers, Navigators, Designers, all types. The Jedi have also largely fallen into legend at this point, with most people in the galaxy having never seen one, though the legends and stories can be found all throughout the Republic. 

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Perhaps the different Jedi "sub-groups" are entire cohesive orders of individuals who have some ideological splits between each other but are all united by a few common principles of "Jedi-ness", they just differ in how they interpret the Force. We see a small glimpse of this in the differences in the descriptions of the Force given to Luke by Obi-Wan and Yoda in ANH and ESB respectively.

Basically, under the large over-arching designation of JEDI, there are various clans that operate autonomously. These are "the Knights", "the Masters", "the Navigators", or what-have-you.

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I was thinking of Yoda. Specifically his words:

No. Not yet. One thing remains. Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.

Does every Jedi face some right of passage? Or was that specific to Luke? At least it shows that having advanced Force abilities does not a Jedi make. Among the Jedi, it makes sense that some would take up the "knight" role. Some would certainly dedicate their arts to healing or whatever vocation they might take up. I'm wary of making it too categorical of formalistic. I'm content with there being JEDI and within that Jedi Knights. Beyond that, particular talents need not comprise a different sects. Taking on the "knight" role is an elevation in responsibility that I don't think exists in other possible roles.

The blue elephant in the room.

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I never thought of "You must confront Vader" as a right of passage.  I think Yoda just meant that Luke had to overcome his the fears and feelings that have been clouding his judgement before he could truly be a Jedi, and that Vader was a living embodiment of those fears and emotions.  By confronting Vader, he is confronting the conflict within himself, and only by doing so, can he truly be a Jedi.  It could also be interpreted in a less symbolic and more literal way by reasoning that Yoda meant that as long as Vader and the Emperor are in power, the Jedi would never rise again.  I prefer the metaphorical, symbolic interpretation, though.

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 (Edited)

I never quite understood the final confrontation between Emperor, Vader, and Luke. How exactly was the Emperor hoping to turn Luke to the side of the Empire by turning him to the Dark Side? I think this is an important question, as Anakin, who was on his side of the war, and Luke, an avowed rebel, are rather different characters. So what if the Emperor's thinking was this:

1. The Dark Side consists of anger and fear.

2. Anger and fear weaken the mind.

3. The Force can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.

This second point is never explicitly stated during the OT, so if the connection is made in the prequels, the Emperor's attempt to turn Anakin would not need to differ from his attempt to turn Luke in any meaningful way, as turning someone to the Dark Side naturally makes them easy prey for someone to control their mind. It's also very Dune: "Fear is the mind-killer".

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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 (Edited)

All this talk of different clans of Jedi has got me thinking...maybe this is the new thing that the prequels should have brought to the table.

 

The way it looks in my head is this...

It is the year 25 BBY, just before the outbreak of the Second Clone War. The Republic is still reeling from its narrow victory against the short-lived Mandalorian Sovereignty, a militant state that used revolutionary new cloning technology to bolster the ranks of its armies. It was thanks only to the intervention of the Jedi Knights that total destruction of the Republic was avoided.

But victory over the Mandalorians came at a price. In their determination to defeat such a persistent and dangerous foe, the Jedi clans known as the "Knights" and the "Masters" discovered that there was a "dark side" of the Force. Some of these rogue Jedi Knights seceded from the order and become the dreaded "Sith Barons". These lightsaber-wielding warriors came to be feared across the galaxy. They practiced the use of the Dark Side as the ultimate expression of anger and hate, the only two things that gave them any power.

Among these traitorous Sith Barons was Anakin Skywalker, who took on the ancient name Darth Vader after his betrayal of the Jedi Knights.

Only one Jedi Master went rogue as a result of the First Clone War. His name was Palpatine. Unlike his more direct Baron counterparts, Palpatine decided that the path to total galactic domination lay in subtlety and manipulation. He decided that one day he would rule the galaxy, but first he needed to convince the public that the Jedi were unworthy to serve as its protectors.

Vader's conversion from Sith Baron to Sith Lord would mark a turning point not just in the life of Anakin Skywalker, but in the history of the entire galaxy.

 

And so the dark times began.

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I would caution against making the story too much about Jedi/Sith, as people in the OT (Han) believe that the Jedi are simply a "hokey religion". This argues against the Jedi being the saviors of the Republic in the Clone Wars, or at least they are not seen as such by the public. I consider that the Jedi were just an entrenched power structure in the Old Republic, one of the many vestiges of a time long past which the Empire was quick to eliminate in its march to a standardized and racially pure military.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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g        ST is the present projected into the future.  ANH is oriented entirely towards the past. with the exception of x-wings and speeders and space ships that are a little futurey in appearance, it is classic tropes from cinema and sci-fi novels informed by history.
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@NeverarGreat: That's a good point. In the prequels I've been working on recently, I've tried to balance out the Force mythos stuff with Solo/Fett/Wedge-style stuff that does not have to do with the Force.

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Slightly off the present course of conversation:  I think I've figured out a storyline where, if you prefer a more complete, whole story and don't mind having OT moments ruined, you can have that, but if you prefer to have those moments preserved, you can also be satisfied.  Here's how it would go down.  Episode I: Obi-Wan meets Anakin while on a dangerous mission.  Takes him as an apprentice at the end of movie.   Episode II:  Obi-Wan and Anakin are sent on different missions, separating for the first time since their meeting.  (not sure what either mission will be yet.)  While on his mission, Anakin becomes increasingly frustrated and angry that the soldiers put under his command do not take him seriously.  Eventually they become mutinous and he cuts them down.  Obi-Wan begins to hear tell of a Dark Jedi by the name of Darth Vader who has risen up and begun hunting down Jedi.  Eventually he discovers the horrible truth that the evil Darth Vader has murdered Anakin Skywalker.  In the end Obi-Wan confronts Vader (who wears some kind of mask to hide his true identity), but he gets away.  This is all set to the backdrop of Palpatine rising to power and manipulating the Senate into transforming the Republic into the Galactic Empire.    Now, if you would like the reveals of the OT preserved, you do not watch Episode III, but continue on to Episode IV, where you now have a good understanding of what happened before, but the shroud of mystery that surrounds Vader remains, if not then.... Episode III:  The Jedi have been exposed to mass genocide at the hands of Darth Vader and the Galactic Empire.  There are less than half the jedi left than there were before the dark times.  Obi-Wan, fueled by vengeance over the murder of his best friend, searches across the galaxy for the villainous Darth Vader.  At the end Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel in a volcano, where Vader reveals to Obi-Wan the shocking truth.  He is Anakin Skywalker.  Eventually Obi-Wan knocks him into the volcano.  Presuming him dead, he leaves, grief stricken.  When Obi-Wan is gone Vader crawls his burned body out of the volcano, where he is rescued by Palpatine and put into the iconic suit and iron lung.  When the news that Vader survived reaches Obi-Wan and Yoda, all seems lost.  Until they discover that Anakin's wife (who has been pregnant since the end of Episode II) gave birth to twins, who have both survived.  The movie ends on a double edged tone.  Low due to the rise of the Empire, and high due to the survival of the twins, and that there is a new hope for the survival of the Jedi.   If you want the OT reveals preserved, but also want to see every movie, then you watch it in this order:  1,2,4,5,3,6.

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It would also be pretty simple in that situation, if demand was high, to provide two alternate versions of Episode III, the normal version, and one where the Vader reveal is taken out.

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A good summary Darth, very similar in plot to the Lucas Prequels episodes 1 and 2, though it seems that if you want to not spoil the reveal, Episode 2 could be split into two movies. Actually I thought at first that Anakin cutting down his own troops and being "murdered" by Vader happened at the end of Episode 2, and that the destruction of the Jedi and Obi-wan's quest happens between 2 and 3, and during Episode 3 as well.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Workprint V4 Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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Apart from the quests of Obi-Wan and Anakin, Episode II would focus mainly on the transition between Republic and Empire, and Episode III would focus mainly on the destruction of the Jedi.  My goal with this storyline wasn't to not spoil the reveal, but to give people an option to, if they choose, not spoil the reveal while still getting a fulfilling story.  I wan't to give people a lot of options when it comes to viewing order, something that I consider to be a big problem with the Lucas prequels is that there really isn't a definitive viewing order at all.  I would like to give people not one definite viewing order, but several that can all work equally well based on what they are looking for story-wise.  The idea for Anakin cutting down his troops after losing their trust actually comes from an idea Lucas had around the time of ROTJ, though I can't remember where I read it.   In terms of how characters get from one place to another, you're right to say my Episode I is similar to the Lucas prequel.  However, the overall plot and characters are so different that I don't think it will matter.