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Ranking the Star Wars films — Page 160

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That’s something I’ve literally never thought about watching star wars.

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I think about how many angels from the Moons of Iego can dance on the head of a lightsaber.

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yotsuya said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

yotsuya said:

MalàStrana said:

For myself I would say I don’t hate any of them and I would, some day, rewatch every single one of them, but I can’t pretend that I like TPM, AOTC, R1, Solo, TFA… (I like some of them when propertly fan edited though) I can enjoy them, find qualities, rewatch a few sequences and be glad to see the “SW soul” supplement in them compared to the average blockbuster, but I honestly don’t like all of them. As a whole, it’s different, and maybe the “I-IX” experience may give the Saga something more as a complete movement than what just separate entries do.

ATOC and TFA are the only ones I did not fully enjoy on my first viewing. Both have segments that just took me right out of the film and derailed the story for me and I have never been able to recover from that. Both need a good fan edit (I would do it very lightly with as few changes as possible) to bring them up to the nearest stories. I cannot say I hate any of them, but those two I have the most profound issues with. Though in contemplating it, one of my issues with TFA has led to a personal retcon that solves a lot of issues for the entire Star Wars universe. Still, it would be a better movie if that was not needed. And the sections of ATOC are just bad and need to be axed.

Indeed AotC’s bad bits, while pretty bad, are relatively harmless. It doesn’t uproot the story or universe. It’s just bad scenes and/or dialogue that can easily be cut. It’s not the same as the problems some people have with TLJ or that I have with RotJ that come from taking the saga in an infuriatingly terrible direction. Granted, some of the problems are also the sort of harmless, easily removed, stuff with no implications down the line, like AotC, which just makes them even worse.

Out of curiosity, what is the headcanon you mentioned concerning TFA?

Both TFA and TESB have some issues with the use of the word system. Take it as it is typically meant, that of a star system, and both those movies are derailed by science. But if you take that to be a planetary system (a planet and its moons) you can have the Millennium Falcon fly from Hoth to Bespin in a reasonable amount of time and you can have the people on Takodana watch the destruction of the Hosnian system without it being completely impossible. But even in the same system, watching the destruction of the Hosnian system stretches believably too far for me.

That would mean a weapon designed to destroy an entire system is actually not destroying the entire system, and also begging the question of why a pirate hideout is right next door to the Republic capital.

You probably don’t recognize me because of the red arm.
Episode 9 Rewrite, The Starlight Project (Released!) and ANH Technicolor Project (Released!)

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yotsuya said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

yotsuya said:

MalàStrana said:

For myself I would say I don’t hate any of them and I would, some day, rewatch every single one of them, but I can’t pretend that I like TPM, AOTC, R1, Solo, TFA… (I like some of them when propertly fan edited though) I can enjoy them, find qualities, rewatch a few sequences and be glad to see the “SW soul” supplement in them compared to the average blockbuster, but I honestly don’t like all of them. As a whole, it’s different, and maybe the “I-IX” experience may give the Saga something more as a complete movement than what just separate entries do.

ATOC and TFA are the only ones I did not fully enjoy on my first viewing. Both have segments that just took me right out of the film and derailed the story for me and I have never been able to recover from that. Both need a good fan edit (I would do it very lightly with as few changes as possible) to bring them up to the nearest stories. I cannot say I hate any of them, but those two I have the most profound issues with. Though in contemplating it, one of my issues with TFA has led to a personal retcon that solves a lot of issues for the entire Star Wars universe. Still, it would be a better movie if that was not needed. And the sections of ATOC are just bad and need to be axed.

Indeed AotC’s bad bits, while pretty bad, are relatively harmless. It doesn’t uproot the story or universe. It’s just bad scenes and/or dialogue that can easily be cut. It’s not the same as the problems some people have with TLJ or that I have with RotJ that come from taking the saga in an infuriatingly terrible direction. Granted, some of the problems are also the sort of harmless, easily removed, stuff with no implications down the line, like AotC, which just makes them even worse.

Out of curiosity, what is the headcanon you mentioned concerning TFA?

Both TFA and TESB have some issues with the use of the word system. Take it as it is typically meant, that of a star system, and both those movies are derailed by science. But if you take that to be a planetary system (a planet and its moons) you can have the Millennium Falcon fly from Hoth to Bespin in a reasonable amount of time and you can have the people on Takodana watch the destruction of the Hosnian system without it being completely impossible. But even in the same system, watching the destruction of the Hosnian system stretches believably too far for me.

I assumed Han and co. being right next to the Republic planets with a good view of their destruction was simply another outrageous TFA coincidence (along with Han finding the Falcon and then saying “Jakku?” as if he didn’t realise he was in Jakku’s system at the time)!

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There are canon (or at least common headcanon) explanations for these two things.

The ESB one has been debated for years. But basically, the Falcon has a secondary, albeit extraordinarily slow, backup hyperdrive. It’s like a spare tire for space travel. This also explains how the Empire and Boba Fett got there before they did once they knew where they were going.

As for why everyone can see the destruction of Hosnian Prime… it’s definitely a hand-wavy explanation but this is what Wookiepedia says.

When the Starkiller Base superweapon released the quintessence [dark energy] it had collected within its core, it was transformed into phantom energy [another state of dark energy], which would follow the line of egress that had been provided by the weapon’s technicians according to planetary rotation, inclination, etc, through a hole in “sub-hyperspace”, until it was intercepted by an object of sufficient mass. When the beam of phantom energy interacted with a planet, it ignited its core, creating a pocket nova. Large amounts of phantom energy could create temporary rips in sub-hyperspace, which allowed the Hosnian Catacylsm in 34 ABY to become visible from across the galaxy as it happened.

So basically, since the weapon made light/energy travel faster than lightspeed itself, it created a disruption in space-time, which made it so the light from the destruction was visible at hyper-light speeds across the galaxy. So not only could the people on Takodana see it, but so could everyone else if they were facing the right direction. I know in the video game Battlefront 2, the characters can see the Hosnian destruction from another planet called Vardos.

But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?

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NeverarGreat said:

yotsuya said:

Anakin Starkiller said:

yotsuya said:

MalàStrana said:

For myself I would say I don’t hate any of them and I would, some day, rewatch every single one of them, but I can’t pretend that I like TPM, AOTC, R1, Solo, TFA… (I like some of them when propertly fan edited though) I can enjoy them, find qualities, rewatch a few sequences and be glad to see the “SW soul” supplement in them compared to the average blockbuster, but I honestly don’t like all of them. As a whole, it’s different, and maybe the “I-IX” experience may give the Saga something more as a complete movement than what just separate entries do.

ATOC and TFA are the only ones I did not fully enjoy on my first viewing. Both have segments that just took me right out of the film and derailed the story for me and I have never been able to recover from that. Both need a good fan edit (I would do it very lightly with as few changes as possible) to bring them up to the nearest stories. I cannot say I hate any of them, but those two I have the most profound issues with. Though in contemplating it, one of my issues with TFA has led to a personal retcon that solves a lot of issues for the entire Star Wars universe. Still, it would be a better movie if that was not needed. And the sections of ATOC are just bad and need to be axed.

Indeed AotC’s bad bits, while pretty bad, are relatively harmless. It doesn’t uproot the story or universe. It’s just bad scenes and/or dialogue that can easily be cut. It’s not the same as the problems some people have with TLJ or that I have with RotJ that come from taking the saga in an infuriatingly terrible direction. Granted, some of the problems are also the sort of harmless, easily removed, stuff with no implications down the line, like AotC, which just makes them even worse.

Out of curiosity, what is the headcanon you mentioned concerning TFA?

Both TFA and TESB have some issues with the use of the word system. Take it as it is typically meant, that of a star system, and both those movies are derailed by science. But if you take that to be a planetary system (a planet and its moons) you can have the Millennium Falcon fly from Hoth to Bespin in a reasonable amount of time and you can have the people on Takodana watch the destruction of the Hosnian system without it being completely impossible. But even in the same system, watching the destruction of the Hosnian system stretches believably too far for me.

That would mean a weapon designed to destroy an entire system is actually not destroying the entire system, and also begging the question of why a pirate hideout is right next door to the Republic capital.

Well, first off, what we see destroyed is a planetary system, not a star system. We see a planet and its moons destroyed. No star visible on screen or indicated at all. The phrase system destroying would thus be defined as a planetary system, not a solar system. As for a pirate hangout right next door, its not like that is unusual in real history or the Star Wars universe. Capitals seem to be a good place for crime.

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RogueLeader said:

But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?

It’s this

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Possessed said:

RogueLeader said:

But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?

It’s this

It’s true. All of it. From a certain point of view.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

Possessed said:

RogueLeader said:

But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?

It’s this

It’s true. All of it. From a certain point of view.

Definitely saving that quote.

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Possessed said:

RogueLeader said:

But the better answer is that it’s just Star Wars, the same galaxy where starships fly like there is air friction, where you can hear sound in space, and giant worms live in asteroids. Did I forget to mention the space wizards with laser swords?

It’s this

Is it? It shows a lack of background in science fiction and what the genre covers. Sure, they bend the laws of physics all the time, but the thing you don’t do is throw it in the audiences faces. Lucas managed to do that in 6 consecutive films. Abrams comes in and breaks that cardinal rule right off. The glaring issues with the final cut of the film are why I rank TFA last - below ATOC. It is such an basic rule of filmmaking in the science fiction genre.

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Star Wars isn’t sci-fi though.

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 (Edited)

Thinking star wars is science fiction shows more a lack of background in science fiction than anything in star wars.

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Yeah, Star Wars has always been fantasy in what’s traditionally a sci-fi setting. Large chunks of the EU in the 90s-00s were more sci-fi oriented and I think that may have skewed some people’s perceptions of the franchise.

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I don’t know, I think SW was always science fantasy like Leonard Maltin said. At least into the 90’s including EU right after 1977 (just read the B&W comics or play the simulator games, which were like the best part). In the 2000s it’s all fantasy and that is why it has lost me, because I enjoy a little more scientific angle for my SW. Kinda like Stargate etc.

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

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ChainsawAsh said:

Yeah, Star Wars has always been fantasy in what’s traditionally a sci-fi setting. Large chunks of the EU in the 90s-00s were more sci-fi oriented and I think that may have skewed some people’s perceptions of the franchise.

This exactly. One of the main reasons I find portions of the EU hard to get into.

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I have an extensive background in science fiction. I have read most of the great masters of the mid 20th century. I have read Dune, Foundation, watched Star Trek, and there is absolutely nothing in Star Wars that isn’t in classic science fiction. The Force is not fantasy, it is science fiction. Not so different from Paul Attredies or The Mule or Gary Mitchell. There is no genre called space fantasy. That is something Lucas made up and what he created fits snugly into science fiction as it was written at that time. And he knew it.

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There was no such genre as heavy metal when Black Sabbath made their first album, but what would you call it?

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Yeah, Star Wars is Sci-Fantasy. It has more in common with The Hobbit than it does with Star Trek (in terms of theming and ‘realism’).

Star Wars isn’t realistic, nor is it trying to be realistic.

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In A New Hope, all of a sudden there was sound in space.

In Empire, all of a sudden you could fly to other planets without the need of hyperspace.

In Return of the Jedi, all of a sudden a moon sized space station can be flown through under the span of a couple minutes, besting even an explosion.

In The Phantom Menace, all of a sudden every star system in the galaxy could meet in one room.

In Clones, all of a sudden you can erase the existence of a planet and no one will notice.

In Sith, all of a sudden the galaxy will just unanimously join a new Empire led by a scary guy making contradictory claims despite a prior civil war having just ended.

Star Wars physics have been contradicting themselves since day one.

Maul- A Star Wars Story

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snooker said:

Yeah, Star Wars is Sci-Fantasy. It has more in common with The Hobbit than it does with Star Trek (in terms of theming and ‘realism’).

Star Wars isn’t realistic, nor is it trying to be realistic.

Name me one force power that Gary Mitchell didn’t use in the 2nd Star Trek pilot. And if not him, some other seemingly humanoid being in another episodes. Star Trek is no more realistic than Star Wars. not one bit. The stories differ with Star Trek being based on a variety of topics, from current issues to myths while Star Wars was based on some other very classic SF franchises, Samurai movies, and Cambell’s Heroes’ Journey.

And if you recall how much magic is in The Hobbit, there isn’t much. Most of the story is just a good, down to earth adventure. While Gandalf is a wizard, he much display his power in The Hobbit. Most of what he does is on display in Lord of the Rings so your argument doesn’t really hold up. Gary Mitchell used more powers in one Star Trek Episode than Gandalf does in the entire series.

The fantasy genre is based on magic. Science fiction is based on science. Typically you get horses or space ships, wizards or telepaths. Star Wars has as much science in it as Dune (which a lot of Star Wars was based on).

Now many may be confusing the narrower sub-genre of hard science fiction for science fiction in general. In hard science fiction everything must be scientifically possible, but the wider spectrum of science fiction does not follow those rules. It doesn’t now and it never has. Hard science fiction does not include faster than light travel, laser swords, telepathy, telekinesis, transporters, or anything that isn’t solid science. The rest of the field, which is the majority, doesn’t care and will include whatever the writer wants to make the story work. Lucas thought he was being clever by inventing the name space fantasy, but what he created in Star Wars is just part of the overall science fiction genre. Most people ignore his label and file it under science fiction. After all, people with telepathy and telekinesis are a standard trope of science fiction, as are princesses, pirates, farm boys, laser guns, space ships, hyperspace, galactic empires, and strange aliens. The lightsaber was a new one, but not totally original. Just about everything in the saga was borrowed from either myths (a favorite source for science fiction stories) or other science fiction franchises. Well, some history as well, but again, a favorite source for science fiction stories. Nothing in Star Wars can’t be found in a thousand other science fiction stories.

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OutboundFlight said:

In A New Hope, all of a sudden there was sound in space.

Not the first SF film to do that.

In Empire, all of a sudden you could fly to other planets without the need of hyperspace.

Not the first SF film to do that. Besides, if you consider each system named to be a planetary system rather than a star system, all those planets could easily be circling the same star and no laws of physics are broken.

In Return of the Jedi, all of a sudden a moon sized space station can be flown through under the span of a couple minutes, besting even an explosion.

They aren’t flying faster than light so what’s your point?

In The Phantom Menace, all of a sudden every star system in the galaxy could meet in one room.

This is just silly - not SF at all and not the first council of many civilizations seen.

In Clones, all of a sudden you can erase the existence of a planet and no one will notice.

Well, as this was just in the Jedi Archives, this is hardly SF related in any way.

In Sith, all of a sudden the galaxy will just unanimously join a new Empire led by a scary guy making contradictory claims despite a prior civil war having just ended.

Now you are stretching things. It is based on 1930’s Germany and many other countries that have let a dictator/emperor take over.

Star Wars physics have been contradicting themselves since day one.

Well, as a lot of those had nothing to do with physics, that really isn’t a point. Shall we talk about how Star Trek constantly broke the laws of physics? Don’t pretend any hollywood SF franchise or film was truly faithful to physics. They take short cuts and break the rules all the time. Constantly. That does not make Star Wars some other genre besides science fiction. But even so, most do a pretty good job of not being too obvious or providing some in-universe explanation to gloss over the errors. TFA didn’t even bother to do that.

Besides, that is just the worst of Abrams many failings in TFA that I feel eclipse those of Lucas in the prequels. Lucas’s main failings were in dialog and directing actor. Abrams main failings are in story and editing and that is far more serious as far as I’m concerned.