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ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 24

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generalfrevious said:


You know... I just don't remember the chewbacca tarzan yell at all In Jedi; I'm not sure if it was in the original or added in the SE. But that's me: I didn't even remember the Greedo shoots first scene when I saw the SE in theaters.


Yes, it's always been there. It's nowhere near as funny as his offscreen guffaw when Threepio translates the Ewoks believing that he is "some sort of god" though.

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Easterhay said:

generalfrevious said:


You know... I just don't remember the chewbacca tarzan yell at all In Jedi; I'm not sure if it was in the original or added in the SE. But that's me: I didn't even remember the Greedo shoots first scene when I saw the SE in theaters.



Yes, it's always been there. It's nowhere near as funny as his offscreen guffaw when Threepio translates the Ewoks believing that he is "some sort of god" though.

 I guess it never took me out of the movie then. I'l try to spot it next time I Jedi.

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I believe it's one of the few original memories I have from seeing the film back in 1983 (but, at my age, genuine memories often mix with fictional ones with alarming frequency). I noticed it, thought it funny, but it didn't take me out of the film any more than noticing how much the grid sequence in The Phantom Menace reminded me of Whacky Races or the swing across the Death Star chasm in A New Hope made me think of Errol Flynn or the close up on Obi-wan and Grievous in Revenge Of The Sith recalled the Westerns of Sergio Leone.

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Just read through all 24 pages of this thread after rewatching ROTJ and thought it would be worth resurrecting to make a major point in the film's favor. 

In ROTJ we get to see all of the major characters (Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the droids) in the same location embarking on an adventure together! This really hadn't happened since SW! (not counting the Holiday Special or dialogue towards the beginning of ESB referencing three years of awesome adventures we'll never get to see :( 

Am I wrong or was the Hoth medical center the only time all three of our main human characters shared a scene together in ESB? I think that's my sole complaint about that film, that they had to split the stories between training on Dagobah and hiding in the asteroid field. And then when they're stories are about to intersect near the end of the film, that darn Darth Vader has to have Han frozen and shipped away. 

I think the beginning of the Endor section on the film (and I suppose the end of the Jabba sequence) elevate the whole film, just for being an honest-to-goodness adventure involving all of our main characters. 

So, while I wouldn't say ROTJ is my favorite of the three, it gets bonus points in my book for doing the one thing that I missed in ESB. 

*On a side note, I wish they hadn't deleted the sandstorm scene or the shots of those guys running around the Falcon during the battle of Endor. They would have given our favorite bucket of bolts a little more of a presence in the film.

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13las said:

In ROTJ we get to see all of the major characters (Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the droids) in the same location embarking on an adventure together! This really hadn't happened since SW!

Oh yeah you're right. Having our beloved heroes all working towards a common goal throughout (Rescuing Han... then saving the Galaxy once again) is strong point for sure.

13las said:

I wish they hadn't deleted the sandstorm scene

Yes. Sure, the voiceover achieves the same in less time so the plot can move on quicker but that sandstorm scene looks amazing and isn't that long.

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I like Return of the Jedi, but I can see why people hate it because of the Ewoks. That whole concept probably did go too far.

Personally, I would rank the Star Wars films in this order:

The Empire Strikes Back >> Return of the Jedi > Star Wars

With all three of them being very good.

What, there were other movies? Not as far as I'm concerned. Trash is trash.

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Mavericks said:

Now what interested me much was why he wasn’t to direct Jedi too? It turned out Lucas offered this but Kersh himself got out. The reasons he listed seems contradicting to me:

  • It took too long and was too exhausting both physically and emotionally

  • He felt doing two for George would be too much and he didn’t wish to be «an employee of Lucas» (Wow, interesting, isn’t it? He considered Lucas a very creative and adored his earlier work, so why in the name of art and talent not to help him more than once? Eventually, he directed not for «thank you» but for being paid/gyven credits and I doubt that doing Empire didn’t result in his bank account increase)
  • He didn’t want
  • He didn’t believe the script

 It's no surprise that Kershner wanted out as after he cut the film George disagreed with it and re-cut the film (ESB) and then a 3rd cut had to be made to put back in of some of kershner's original cuts. (Secret History of Star Wars -That is where I read this. Not sure how true this is?)

How much of Empire is purely Kershner's Vision remains very unclear.

He then got the job of Robocop 2 that again was altered away from making Robocop more human and a tortured soul. Which was Kersners Desire which to be honest was I think a good call on his part. But the Studio disagreed with it and altered / ordered the footage cut out.

Kershner was of a much older ilk of film maker and he was obviously desired in some sense but also shunned in others, and perhaps did not fit with the modernistic approach that films were taking at that time. But I think that you need not look any further than not having Final cut or limited creative control is enough to walk away and say "not doing this again"

But I doubt Empire is too far different from what was planned. Robocop 2 however I think finished him off as a big budget film director.

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Ronster said:

How much of Empire is purely Kershner's Vision remains very unclear.

I don't think we can speak of "his vision" when it comes to ESB. He was basically an actor director. Pre-production and post-production were directed by Lucas.

真実

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Yes I would Have to agree with you, I would like to have seen the first cut though.

Actually I made a mistake with Robocop 2 It's Peter Weller that was really upset about his character becoming de-humanised further.  Not Studio involvement it was Kershner's choice to cut it apparently which is a bit strange going from Empire a very human film...

But Marquand was not on the same big hitting scale as Kershner he must have been far easier to tell him what to do. But I don't think ROTJ was Chopped about as much as ESB was in Editing. Or ateast I don't think it was?

ROTJ has a lot going for it still but I think Lucus did not want a repeat of Empire where it seems George and Kershner both had to compromise on final cut. Or George was making more compromises than he wanted to.

George wanted more control Back on ROTJ and he got it.

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The question is, how does Jedi measure up against the prequels? Was there less control than in the PT or was it equal?

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Ronster said:

Yes I would Have to agree with you, I would like to have seen the first cut though.

Actually I made a mistake with Robocop 2 It's Peter Weller that was really upset about his character becoming de-humanised further.  Not Studio involvement it was Kershner's choice to cut it apparently which is a bit strange going from Empire a very human film...

But Marquand was not on the same big hitting scale as Kershner he must have been far easier to tell him what to do. But I don't think ROTJ was Chopped about as much as ESB was in Editing. Or ateast I don't think it was?

ROTJ has a lot going for it still but I think Lucus did not want a repeat of Empire where it seems George and Kershner both had to compromise on final cut. Or George was making more compromises than he wanted to.

George wanted more control Back on ROTJ and he got it.

 At the time, he was also more interested in controlling costs than anything else. The Secret History book has a lot on how out-of-control TESB seemed during production. Obviously it made that money back many times over, but to Lucas it seemed like there was a real chance that trusting Kershner and Kurtz would have bankrupted him. He wasn't ready to go through that again with ROTJ so they were gone.

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 (Edited)

This page has gone way off topic in the last few posts. Back to topic...

Since I posted the OP 2 years ago the critical consensus on the 6 current SW films hasn't changed much (According to Rotten Tomatoes) but it has changed...

Star Wars 93% (-1)
The Empire Strikes Back 96% (-1)
Return of the Jedi 78% (-1)
Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace 57% (=)
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones 67% (=)
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 80% (=)

So people still feel exactly the same about the prequels, they like the original-trilogy a bit less (Surprising given the recent OT love expressed in the lead up to TFA) and they still think ROTS is better than ROTJ but now they prefer ROTS even more!

Madness I say! I still can't really understand why many are so dissatisfied with ROTJ, that they'd actually start thinking it was worse than the prequels.

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A prequel...

I wouldn't go that far as the performances of Mark and Ian lift ROTJ up beyond ROTS.

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If you look at Metacritic ROTJ has a score of 52! Slightly worse than AOTC (53) and better than TPM (51). ROTS has a 68 for some reason.

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Bingowings said:

Hayden Flambé presumably.

 Or maybe we were finally done with those Star Wars prequels! Out of all the six movies, I have seen ROTS the least. And I didn't like it when it first came out!

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Ryan McAvoy said:

This page has gone way off topic in the last few posts. Back to topic...

Since I posted the OP 2 years ago the critical consensus on the 6 current SW films hasn't changed much (According to Rotten Tomatoes) but it has changed...

Star Wars 93% (-1)
The Empire Strikes Back 96% (-1)
Return of the Jedi 78% (-1)
Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace 57% (=)
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones 67% (=)
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith 80% (=)

So people still feel exactly the same about the prequels, they like the original-trilogy a bit less (Surprising given the recent OT love expressed in the lead up to TFA) and they still think ROTS is better than ROTJ but now they prefer ROTS even more!

Madness I say! I still can't really understand why many are so dissatisfied with ROTJ, that they'd actually start thinking it was worse than the prequels.

I'd bet that a good amount of this change in attitude comes from people watching the 2011 Blu-rays, which cast the OT in a horrible light.

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NeverarGreat said:

Ryan McAvoy said:

Madness I say! I still can't really understand why many are so dissatisfied with ROTJ, that they'd actually start thinking it was worse than the prequels.

I'd bet that a good amount of this change in attitude comes from people watching the 2011 Blu-rays, which cast the OT in a horrible light.

There's a good chance that is true.

I also think that those ratings are often made subjectively without reference to a master scale.  Empire at 96% and Jedi at ~18% less than that?  Sure, I can buy those.

Phantom Menace at 57% and RotS at 23% above that?  I can buy that too.

Wait- does that leave RotS higher than RotJ?  No way, man.  No way.

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Why would anyone even bother with ratings from film critics?

真実

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imperialscum said:

Why would anyone even bother with ratings from film critics?

True. The audience and critical ratings on RT are quite different for the saga. 95% for ROTJ and 65% for ROTS which isn't too far off the mark IMO.

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Did the prequels have any character as memorable as Admiral Ackbar?

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imperialscum said:

Why would anyone even bother with ratings from film critics?

In this case it seems to be important to some what others think of their favorite movie. This thread is a manifestation of that.

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generalfrevious said:

Did the prequels have any character as memorable as Admiral Ackbar?

Well, in a way they did... but not in a good way ;-)

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generalfrevious said:

Did the prequels have any character as memorable as Admiral Ackbar?

 Sure they did. There was, uh...crap I forget his name.