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¡BANG!
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ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 13
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Which Star Wars movie has the best message? In my opinion, the central messages are thus:
The first one has the message that if you use your innate talents, you can singlehandedly defeat Empires. "Use the Force, Luke."
Empire states that in order to do something, you must commit yourself completely to its completion, forsaking even your friends, instead of simply "giving it a shot". "Do. Or do not. There is no try."
Jedi communicates the idea that a you are great not only because of what you have done and what you are, but because of what others have allowed you to do, and to be. "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
So to me, the message of the first movie is rather unrealistic. It is Luke alone who destroys the Death Star, and this point is made by having everyone abandon him in his final test, except for Obi-wan, though it is implied that in the end, Luke uses the Force without Obi-wan's help. Empire as well has the message that to accomplish your dreams, you must abandon your friends and strike out on your own. It is Jedi that provides the message that all people, no matter how humble or broken, can help in toppling empires, and it is this message that I think is the most important of all.
So on the basis of message, Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars film.
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Bingowings said:
¡BANG!
Are we still talking about Star Wars?
;-)
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NeverarGreat said:
Which Star Wars movie has the best message? In my opinion, the central messages are thus:
The first one has the message that if you use your innate talents, you can singlehandedly defeat Empires. "Use the Force, Luke."
Empire states that in order to do something, you must commit yourself completely to its completion, forsaking even your friends, instead of simply "giving it a shot". "Do. Or do not. There is no try."
Jedi communicates the idea that a you are great not only because of what you have done and what you are, but because of what others have allowed you to do, and to be. "I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
So to me, the message of the first movie is rather unrealistic. It is Luke alone who destroys the Death Star, and this point is made by having everyone abandon him in his final test, except for Obi-wan, though it is implied that in the end, Luke uses the Force without Obi-wan's help. Empire as well has the message that to accomplish your dreams, you must abandon your friends and strike out on your own. It is Jedi that provides the message that all people, no matter how humble or broken, can help in toppling empires, and it is this message that I think is the most important of all.
So on the basis of message, Return of the Jedi is the best Star Wars film.
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ANH Message : No matter how exotic human civilization becomes, no matter the developments of life and society nor the complexity of the machine/human interface, there always come interludes of lonely power when the course of humankind, depends upon the relatively simple actions of single individuals.(Ben gives up his life so the Falcon can leave. Artoo carries the plans to the rebels, the one man fighter finds the small exhaust port and destroys the metal moon and it's planet smashing weapon, Han changes his mind and saves Luke.).
ESB message : Fear is the mindkiller. Fear motivates almost every major action in the piece. It leads the characters into peril and overcoming it leads them back to safety.
ROTJ message : There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
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ROTJ: Sometimes, you don't need technology to win (or logic). And anyone can be redeemed.
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The first part is a simplified version of the message of ANH.
And yes anyone can be redeemed if they throw an old man down a well.
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Bingowings said:
ANH Message : No matter how exotic human civilization becomes, no matter the developments of life and society nor the complexity of the machine/human interface, there always come interludes of lonely power when the course of humankind, depends upon the relatively simple actions of single individuals.(Ben gives up his life so the Falcon can leave. Artoo carries the plans to the rebels, the one man fighter finds the small exhaust port and destroys the metal moon and it's planet smashing weapon, Han changes his mind and saves Luke.).
ESB message : Fear is the mindkiller. Fear motivates almost every major action in the piece. It leads the characters into peril and overcoming it leads them back to safety.
ROTJ message : There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
I agree with your ANH analysis, and fear does play a big part in ESB. But really, the "father is mortal" message of ROTJ doesn't take into account most of the actions in the movie.
The rebels underestimate the Empire's new battle station, the Imperials underestimate the Ewoks, both Jabba and the Emperor underestimate Luke's power, and Vader underestimates his own good side. This theme seems to be played again and again.
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Anchorhead said:
Bingowings said:
¡BANG!
Are we still talking about Star Wars?
;-)
Washbot is Star Wars.
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NeverarGreat said:
Bingowings said:
ANH Message : No matter how exotic human civilization becomes, no matter the developments of life and society nor the complexity of the machine/human interface, there always come interludes of lonely power when the course of humankind, depends upon the relatively simple actions of single individuals.(Ben gives up his life so the Falcon can leave. Artoo carries the plans to the rebels, the one man fighter finds the small exhaust port and destroys the metal moon and it's planet smashing weapon, Han changes his mind and saves Luke.).
ESB message : Fear is the mindkiller. Fear motivates almost every major action in the piece. It leads the characters into peril and overcoming it leads them back to safety.
ROTJ message : There is probably no more terrible instance of enlightenment than the one in which you discover your father is a man — with human flesh.
I agree with your ANH analysis, and fear does play a big part in ESB. But really, the "father is mortal" message of ROTJ doesn't take into account most of the actions in the movie.
The rebels underestimate the Empire's new battle station, the Imperials underestimate the Ewoks, both Jabba and the Emperor underestimate Luke's power, and Vader underestimates his own good side. This theme seems to be played again and again.
Jedi only really has the father revelation as a theme.
Other things happen, some of which touches on the themes of the other films on which ROTJ is shamelessly parasitic but the revelation that Vader is truly human. (Not just a robot or a scarred monster... Ben is wrong again) is the one unique angle the film has going for it.
Luke is initially repelled back into sanity by the sight of the mechanical stump that reminds him of the monster he could be.
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
This is understandable because Vader is such an icon for evil that painting him as the 'other' (machine/monster) is comfortable.
The reveal of the old man behind the mask is too good for such a flimsy film but it is the core of the piece and possibly the only thing that holds it together.
Most of this is down to the acting of the four people playing Vader/Anakin, Mark and Ian.
The rest of the film is practically filler.
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SilverWook said:
Bingowings said:
SilverWook said:
Tyrphanax said:
Here's a fun theory:
Since the whole Endor bit was a set-up, what better trap than to present the attackers with something they'd defeated before?
Not to mention deliberately make it look unfinished and vulnerable. That was a touch of evil genius.
Making it actually unfinished and vulnerable (unable to jump into hyperspace when things get too bad, unable to generate it's own shield and playing host to the real Emperor and his 'second in command" and not fakers) was a bit dumb.
Palpatine is overconfident in his old age. And who among his underlings is going to dare say his plan has holes in it? He probably Force chokes people when his soup is too hot.
Where in the film is it implied the DS can't flee? Palpy said it was fully operational.
I do like the idea of Palpatine and Vader having doubles to thwart assassination attempts. That might have been a real issue in the early days of the Empire. Maybe one of the spinoff films will show that.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Death Star only looked incomplete.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
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Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
Keep Circulating the Tapes.
END OF LINE
(It hasn’t happened yet)
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TV's Frink said:
Anchorhead said:
Bingowings said:
¡BANG!
Are we still talking about Star Wars?
;-)
Washbot is Star Wars.
Sounded to me like Bingo was bragging. ;-
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Tyrphanax said:
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
Because Lucas had no story beyond 1977 (no matter how many times he says otherwise). When you write on the fly for marketing tie-in revenue, you fail. Return is a directionless mess.
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Tyrphanax said:
Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
Dammit, you're right. Unfortunately ROTJ is a movie that I dislike more and more every time I watch it, which really hurts considering how much nostalgia I have towards it. The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three. The fact that ANH and ESB still hold up to my childhood adoration (and then some) every time I watch is what seals the deal.
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Tyrphanax said:
Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
The main blame for Alderaan rests squarely on Tarkin. Vader wasn't the one who gave the order.
The realization that her torturer was her father should have been addressed though.
Where were you in '77?
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Similar analysis for the PT:
TPM - if you have a lot of midichlorians, you can do cool stuff and pick up hot older babes.
AOTC - chicks always fall for the jerks, and when it comes right down to it you can't really trust anyone.
ROTS - some people are bad and do lots of bad things. It is advisable to hide from them after they become powerful.
Timeless themes!
"Close the blast doors!"
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Tyrphanax said:
Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
The best way to watch SW movies is never look at the previous movies, and you can forgive the flaws in plot holes.
The great thing about growing up (before the days of VCR/DVD) was that the movies would come on Cable and you would watch them individually and not think of the other movies. I watched SW on HBO a zillion times in 1983, and finally ESB came to HBO in 1986 and I watched that a zillion times. The same with Jedi, as I believe that came to HBO in 1988.
Even though we had a VCR, I never bought movies back then, and because of that I never thought of the SW Trilogy as 'one big story' when I was watching them. You kind of watched them with a grain of salt ignoring the writing flaws.
Once the PT came out, Lucas was so hellbent on fans watching the movies as one big story, in a particular order, and if you do that the plot holes stick out like a sore thumb. Just watch the OT movies as individual movies (with the idea that they are a trilogy in the back of your mind) and you will enjoy them alot more.
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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
TPM - if you have a lot of midichlorians, you can pick up hot older babes.
AOTC - chicks always fall for the jerks
Interesting. Where would one acquire these... minichlorines you speak of?
IT'S MY TRILOGY, AND I WANT IT NOW!
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"They're my movies." -George Lucas. 19 people won oscars for their work on Star Wars (1977) and George Lucas wasn't one of them.
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DominicCobb said:
Tyrphanax said:
Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
Dammit, you're right. Unfortunately ROTJ is a movie that I dislike more and more every time I watch it, which really hurts considering how much nostalgia I have towards it. The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three. The fact that ANH and ESB still hold up to my childhood adoration (and then some) every time I watch is what seals the deal.
amen! Im very fond of ROTJ, but I just feel that Luca$'s attitude for this one was: "This is the last one, lets just throw everything together and get it done chop-chop!" I agree that there was some wasted potential.
"There's no cluster of midiclorians that controls my destiny!" -Han Solo, from a future revision of ANH
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Hoth-Nudist said:
DominicCobb said:
Tyrphanax said:
Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
Dammit, you're right. Unfortunately ROTJ is a movie that I dislike more and more every time I watch it, which really hurts considering how much nostalgia I have towards it. The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three. The fact that ANH and ESB still hold up to my childhood adoration (and then some) every time I watch is what seals the deal.
amen! Im very fond of ROTJ, but I just feel that Luca$'s attitude for this one was: "This is the last one, lets just throw everything together and get it done chop-chop!" I agree that there was some wasted potential.
I would argue that the exact oposit id possibly true. The way the whole trilogy comes to a climatic, neat and beautifully written conclusion is vastly underestimated.
It could have been very different...
Consider a film like TDKR that while generally good, doesn't wrap up that trilogy very well at all. Batman dies but then doesn't die to keep things open for a sequel. A new Robin character is introduced solely for a sequel setup. Batman does not defeat any of the four antagonists. There is no redemption, no real love story of any consequence etc etc
Or consider BTTF3 (A film I love!!) but that doesn't wrap the story up at all. A brilliant film happens and then there is an emotional scene at the end.
And I've already pointed out elsewhere what a collasal waste of the final chapter of the Spock Trilogy Star Trek 4 is.
ROTJ is a great ending to the OT. In a way it defines the OT because looking back all paths lead to it. It could have just been another film...
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DominicCobb said:
The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three.
There wasn't any wasted potential.
The main potential of this film (i.e. Luke's, Vader's and Emperor's subplots) was utilised to perfection. Jabba's subplot was great. Lando's subplot was good. Boba's death was good (Wild Bill style).
As for Han and Leia romance subplot, Lucas almost entirely depleted its potential in ESB and there was not much left for ROTJ. Considering this, they squeezed out the best they could. Ford and Fisher could act a little better but overall it is fine.
真実
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Boba's death was good
You're fond of saying things that make no sense, I've noticed.
JEDIT: Forum text editor and my phone, a winning combination!
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Ryan McAvoy said:
Hoth-Nudist said:
DominicCobb said:
Tyrphanax said:
Bingowings said:
Leia has her own reasons to be repelled by the notion that her hero/brother is related to the thing that killed her homeworld (the glossing over her reaction to her being his daughter is a giant misstep in this film).
The fact that Alderaan is never mentioned again, and especially not during this key scene always bothered me.
Dammit, you're right. Unfortunately ROTJ is a movie that I dislike more and more every time I watch it, which really hurts considering how much nostalgia I have towards it. The sheer amount of wasted potential is enough for it to be easily the least of the three. The fact that ANH and ESB still hold up to my childhood adoration (and then some) every time I watch is what seals the deal.
amen! Im very fond of ROTJ, but I just feel that Luca$'s attitude for this one was: "This is the last one, lets just throw everything together and get it done chop-chop!" I agree that there was some wasted potential.
I would argue that the exact oposit id possibly true. The way the whole trilogy comes to a climatic, neat and beautifully written conclusion is vastly underestimated.
It could have been very different...
Consider a film like TDKR that while generally good, doesn't wrap up that trilogy very well at all. Batman dies but then doesn't die to keep things open for a sequel. A new Robin character is introduced solely for a sequel setup. Batman does not defeat any of the four antagonists. There is no redemption, no real love story of any consequence etc etc
Or consider BTTF3 (A film I love!!) but that doesn't wrap the story up at all. A brilliant film happens and then there is an emotional scene at the end.
And I've already pointed out elsewhere what a collasal waste of the final chapter of the Spock Trilogy Star Trek 4 is.
ROTJ is a great ending to the OT. In a way it defines the OT because looking back all paths lead to it. It could have just been another film...
It could have been worse, you're right. I'll not argue why ROTJ is a disappointment any longer, all my grievances have either been voiced by my or someone else here or anywhere this argument has waged in the past thirty years.
I will also not argue the merits of TDKR because this is not the place and you clearly misinterpreted the ending. I will also not bother with your other two examples because I agree with you on those. But the main reason I will not discuss those films is because they are not Star Wars. Yes, it could have been worse. But it also could have been MUCH better. To be clear, I love ROTJ. But this is a Star Wars film, and in Star Wars, the galaxy is the limit. There was a million places they could go. Sure, they stuck the conclusion landing better than most. But they still missed conclusive opportunities and, most unfortunate in my opinion, failed to match the amount of original content/concepts/ideas present in the preceding two films.
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I was just watching through ROTJ the other day, and I was trying to imagine Star Wars without it. It's not possible. Not for me. Imagine, if you will, Star Wars without a battle between capital ships, without the construction of a lightsaber, without ever really meeting the Emperor, without C-3PO translating a non-robot language (yes, this is the only movie where he is genuinely useful!).
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