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Puggo GRANDE - 16mm restoration (Released) — Page 6

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skyjedi2005 said:

I went back and watched the video sample from before and i love it.  I can't wait to see this!

And that sample was before any cleaning or a new gate to capture the full anamorphic image.

One of the major things about this project and why it is so awesome is because it will be much better than the non anamorphic widescreen 1977 xvid moth3r posted years ago.  And like the zoomed in on the center frame pan and scan 77 fan dvd will have the mono mix, just not the low crap bitrate.

Reminder - maintain reasonable expectations!  Cleaning didn't make much of a difference.  If videoFred's avisynth magic script doesn't live up to it's hype, PG is still going to be low-res, grainy, dirty, with lots of spots and scratches, and splotchy with uneven colors.  That said, it IS true that it will be real anamorphic, will have the real original crawl, the real mono mix, and best of all - the original "close the blast doors!".  Maybe I can figure out how to add some CG to get Luke to miss with the grappling hook, too... (just kidding)  :)

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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skyjedi2005 said:

Also the mono mix from a better source than the tv broadcast, is also much appreciated and welcomed.

Don't hold your breath - see post #33.

Nobody has ever put out a disc authored with the belbecus restored mono mix...

Wrong - the Pwnage Edition includes the mono mix sourced from Belbucus' restoration.

 

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I don't post much here anymore as I'm suffering from an illness at the moment, but just wanted to say I'm so excited by this project - perhaps more so than for any other fan release so far (which is saying something!). Even with a dirty print, there's just something so 'pure' about seeing Star Wars this way - no digital schenangiagns (which I've probably spelt wrong lol!) and a roll back to "a simpler age" of film making/watching. I love the quality of the image and the sound clips!

Bravo Puggo, and MANY thanks for sharing your progress on this project step by step!

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Transferred reel 2.  Not as bad as I thought it would be.  The redness was not as severe as in the Swedish print, and was the worst at the beginning of the reel.  The colors are not as rich as for reels 1 and 3, but some compensation will be achievable in post.

So now that the basic transfers are complete, I will begin the even more painstaking assembly, sync, and all the experimentation I inevitably do to try and make it as watchable as I can.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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 (Edited)

Completed sound sync of reels 2 and 3.

One snippet of the Greedo scene is problematic... in the one portion where Greedo's subtitles comprise two lines, the 2nd line is chopped in half.  The Swedish print has the complete two lines, but they are partially obliterated by the Swedish subtitles!  The best I've been able to do so far is to grab a frame immediately prior to the appearance of the Swedish overwrite, and duplicate that lower portion of the frame to build the complete subtitle in the original. However, if you look closely, Greedo's clothing becomes partially separated in the last 1/2 second or so.  It's not a perfect solution.  Moving the frame manually also would look wierd because half of the subtitles would move and the other half not.  So I'm not sure what fix if any is possible.  Any ideas?

I also grabbed the Swedish portion corresponding to the sprocket-hole repair I had to do... it just was too jumpy.  That segment also had a Swedish subtitle, but I was able to remove it cleanly!

I also tried applying that impressive avisynth filter chain by videoFred (thanks for the link, Mothr!) to a segment of reel 1.  The results were disappointing - overemphasis of grain, especially.  But it is making me more aware of some things I can experiment with.

It's getting close to pulldown and some test burns.  But first I can't help but spend some time tinkering with avisynth to see what's possible.  There is a lot of obvious correcting to be done, and that will take some time.  In the meantime, I'll try and get some new screen caps and clips up, since I haven't released any since getting the new gate.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Well, I saw your rescuing Star Wars video. And I noticed the scene where Luke rescues Wedge and blasts a tie fighter right before he would have flown through it that it had the really big scratch that is on the Gout and even one of the 1997 trailers I think.

Take back the trilogy. Execute Order '77

http://www.youtube.com/user/Knightmessenger

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I uploaded some frame grabs and a short sampler video:

http://www.hardbat.com/puggo/grandePics.html

The video is XVid compressed, but still in scope aspect ratio. The pictures are converted to 720x405 to bring them closer to the proper ratio.

 

looks good but the aspect ratio isn't correct. It's stretched vertically. 853x358 would be about correct

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Octorox said:

looks good but the aspect ratio isn't correct. It's stretched vertically. 853x358 would be about correct

I presume you mean that an original of 720x480 should be changed to 853x358?  How is that calculated?  Thanks!!

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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 (Edited)
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Octorox said:

looks good but the aspect ratio isn't correct. It's stretched vertically. 853x358 would be about correct

I presume you mean that an original of 720x480 should be changed to 853x358?  How is that calculated?  Thanks!!

 

It's seems like a lot of the top and bottom of the movie on the 16mm film has been cropped off, making my 853x358 comment incorrect sorry :(. 853x358 is the dimensions of a scope movie stretched anamorphic and with the letterbox bars cut off

I'd just look at the DVDs and use that to decide how much to squash the picture.

 

Photobucket

Revisited DVD:

Photobucket

Therefore this might be more accurate, fixed aspect ratio and basic CC:

Photobucket

Here's your whole vid corrected:

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i128/octolink_64/?action=view&current=grandecorrected.flv

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Octorox said:

It's seems like a lot of the top and bottom of the movie on the 16mm film has been cropped off, making my 853x358 comment incorrect sorry :(. 853x358 is the dimensions of a scope movie stretched anamorphic and with the letterbox bars cut off

I'd just look at the DVDs and use that to decide how much to squash the picture.

 

Here's your whole vid corrected:

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i128/octolink_64/?action=view&current=grandecorrected.flv

Indeed, the frames are not complete... that was clear when I noticed that the bottom of Greedo's subtitles (on the 2-line subtitle) was chopped - not just on my capture, but on the film itself!  My captures are really close to the boundaries of the film.

I will take your advice and eyeball it with the DVDs.

Your version of my vid is nice.  What did you use to change the aspect ratio?  I've been wrestling with an older version of Vegas, and not completely happy with the results.  And I tried using "resize" in VirtualDub, but I keep getting an error message that it's incompatible with the compression (it works if I do it uncompressed - I was attempting it with the Panasonic codec).

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Octorox said:

It's seems like a lot of the top and bottom of the movie on the 16mm film has been cropped off, making my 853x358 comment incorrect sorry :(. 853x358 is the dimensions of a scope movie stretched anamorphic and with the letterbox bars cut off

I'd just look at the DVDs and use that to decide how much to squash the picture.

 

Here's your whole vid corrected:

http://s71.photobucket.com/albums/i128/octolink_64/?action=view&current=grandecorrected.flv

Indeed, the frames are not complete... that was clear when I noticed that the bottom of Greedo's subtitles (on the 2-line subtitle) was chopped - not just on my capture, but on the film itself!  My captures are really close to the boundaries of the film.

I will take your advice and eyeball it with the DVDs.

Your version of my vid is nice.  What did you use to change the aspect ratio?  I've been wrestling with an older version of Vegas, and not completely happy with the results.  And I tried using "resize" in VirtualDub, but I keep getting an error message that it's incompatible with the compression (it works if I do it uncompressed - I was attempting it with the Panasonic codec).

Sadly, I'm on a mac rather than a PC, so you cant use the exact same software. I used Final Cut Pro for everything. The aspect ratio tool allows you to squash the video until you're happy with it. I'm sure Vegas has something similar though.

 

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Octorox said:

Sadly, I'm on a mac rather than a PC, so you cant use the exact same software. I used Final Cut Pro for everything. The aspect ratio tool allows you to squash the video until you're happy with it. I'm sure Vegas has something similar though.

It's times like this I'm jealous of you Mac guys... not that we can't do the same stuff, but it always seems a bit more cryptic.  BTW, that was very impressive how quickly you did all that stuff ... finding the same frame from another edition, redoing the clip, and the still image, and figuring out a good proportion, all in about a half a day!

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Octorox said:

Sadly, I'm on a mac rather than a PC, so you cant use the exact same software. I used Final Cut Pro for everything. The aspect ratio tool allows you to squash the video until you're happy with it. I'm sure Vegas has something similar though.

It's times like this I'm jealous of you Mac guys... not that we can't do the same stuff, but it always seems a bit more cryptic.  BTW, that was very impressive how quickly you did all that stuff ... finding the same frame from another edition, redoing the clip, and the still image, and figuring out a good proportion, all in about a half a day!

 

Quite honestly, half an hour, including converting and uploading the video. It was easy as import, squash, tweak colors, export, upload. of course final cut pro isn't exactly cheap either...

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Indeed, the frames are not complete... that was clear when I noticed that the bottom of Greedo's subtitles (on the 2-line subtitle) was chopped - not just on my capture, but on the film itself!  My captures are really close to the boundaries of the film.

From the screenshots posted above, it looks like it's only the bottom that has been cropped. It probably wouldn't be that obvious if it weren't for the subtitles, which is disappointing. Not knowing much about 16mm film - is this just a badly cropped print or do you often find 16mm transfers that are over-cropped?

I will take your advice and eyeball it with the DVDs.

Your version of my vid is nice.  What did you use to change the aspect ratio?  I've been wrestling with an older version of Vegas, and not completely happy with the results.  And I tried using "resize" in VirtualDub, but I keep getting an error message that it's incompatible with the compression (it works if I do it uncompressed - I was attempting it with the Panasonic codec).

That's because the DV codec only supports resolutions of 720x576 for PAL and 720x480 for NTSC - however, I assume your final resolution will be 720x480 anyway for DVD authoring.

If you are going the AviSynth processing route, just add the following to the end of the script:

Spline36Resize(720, 362)
AddBorders(0, 59, 0, 59)

This will give you a 2.35:1 image letterboxed for a 16:9 anamorphic NTSC DVD. Adjust to suit your source, but note that the final resolution must remain 720 by 480 (= (2 x 59) + 362).

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I uploaded some frame grabs and a short sampler video:

http://www.hardbat.com/puggo/grandePics.html

The video is XVid compressed, but still in scope aspect ratio. The pictures are converted to 720x405 to bring them closer to the proper ratio.

Oh I forgot to ask - what post processing (if any) has been applied to this video?

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 (Edited)
Moth3r said:

From the screenshots posted above, it looks like it's only the bottom that has been cropped. It probably wouldn't be that obvious if it weren't for the subtitles, which is disappointing. Not knowing much about 16mm film - is this just a badly cropped print or do you often find 16mm transfers that are over-cropped?

Well, this is the first time I've worked with a feature film.  All of the other films I've worked with were the myriads of small, instructional, or special films.  So I can't say if this is normal.  But it's pretty clear that at least these 16mm prints of SW were done very sloppily.  Besides the cropping at the bottom, there are missing frames, audio glitches ("thank the maker" is "nk the maker" and had to be fixed).

Moth3r said:

That's because the DV codec only supports resolutions of 720x576 for PAL and 720x480 for NTSC - however, I assume your final resolution will be 720x480 anyway for DVD authoring.

If you are going the AviSynth processing route, just add the following to the end of the script:

Spline36Resize(720, 362)
AddBorders(0, 59, 0, 59)

This will give you a 2.35:1 image letterboxed for a 16:9 anamorphic NTSC DVD. Adjust to suit your source, but note that the final resolution must remain 720 by 480 (= (2 x 59) + 362).

Wow, thank you so much!  I will be taking primarily the AviSynth route.   I didn't know that DV only supported 720x480, but that explains everything.  This is honestly the first time I will have worked with something widescreen, so I hope you'll understand my periodically asking remedial questions.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Moth3r said:
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

Indeed, the frames are not complete... that was clear when I noticed that the bottom of Greedo's subtitles (on the 2-line subtitle) was chopped - not just on my capture, but on the film itself!  My captures are really close to the boundaries of the film.

From the screenshots posted above, it looks like it's only the bottom that has been cropped. It probably wouldn't be that obvious if it weren't for the subtitles, which is disappointing. Not knowing much about 16mm film - is this just a badly cropped print or do you often find 16mm transfers that are over-cropped?

I will take your advice and eyeball it with the DVDs.

Your version of my vid is nice.  What did you use to change the aspect ratio?  I've been wrestling with an older version of Vegas, and not completely happy with the results.  And I tried using "resize" in VirtualDub, but I keep getting an error message that it's incompatible with the compression (it works if I do it uncompressed - I was attempting it with the Panasonic codec).

That's because the DV codec only supports resolutions of 720x576 for PAL and 720x480 for NTSC - however, I assume your final resolution will be 720x480 anyway for DVD authoring.

If you are going the AviSynth processing route, just add the following to the end of the script:

Spline36Resize(720, 362)
AddBorders(0, 59, 0, 59)

This will give you a 2.35:1 image letterboxed for a 16:9 anamorphic NTSC DVD. Adjust to suit your source, but note that the final resolution must remain 720 by 480 (= (2 x 59) + 362).

 

I would think that would not be correct because the video is no longer 2.35:1 because part of it was cropped off, making it an even wider aspect ratio.

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Octorox said:

I would think that would not be correct because the video is no longer 2.35:1 because part of it was cropped off, making it an even wider aspect ratio.

I will tweak the values.  Plus, now I'm mulling over the possibility of re-capturing the film (yet again), including a sliver of the sprocket holes on the left, for stabilizing in post.  If I do that, it may end up closer to the correct aspect ratio.  But I'll need to eyeball it anyways.  On the plus side is possibly better stabilization and a couple of more rows of pixels.  On the minus side is a very slightly smaller image.  It shouldn't affect my sound syncs.  I'll try to do a test capture tonight.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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 (Edited)

Ok, I just re-captured reel #3, zoomed very slightly out so as to grab the film frame boundaries on the outer edges of the video frames.  Although the image is ever-so-slightly smaller, it will ensure that I am not missing even a single row of pixels.  I am happy with the capture, and so I will grab the remaining two reels over the next two evenings.

Since the aspect ratio of the film is slightly different than the aspect ratio of the video (the film is more narrow), there is some leftover usable space on the sides. So I am using that space to grab the rightmost portion of the sprocket holes. Perhaps someday I will figure out how to use those for further stabilization - although if you see my thread in the technical section, it turns out that may be harder than it seems. But I did it anyways because it didn't cost me anything, and who knows if someone will come up with a filter for doing that some day.

Anyone have a favorite filter they want me to try?

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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 (Edited)

Not that I've had any experience with it myself, but the obvious one would be the DePanStabilize/DePanEstimate combination, as used by both gforce's GOUT script and VideoFred's 8mm restoration method.

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Great project!

BTW, "telecine" is film's 24fps converted to video's 30fps using one of various frame or field duplicating techniques. MovieStuff projector output is single frame in film format (24fps). In this non-telecined state, it is perfectly suitable for DVD (with added pull-down flag for the DVD player).

BTW #2, the "anamorphic" format is optically squeezed image for optical expansion during projection. It is perfectly suitable for DVD (with added anamorphic flag for the DVD player to letterbox for 4:3 TV, or widen for 16:9 TV).

Examination of your frame captures shows a noticeable color fringing. This is due to the quality of your camcorder lens? Double-checking the MovieStuff website samples shows similar fringing, only not as pronounced. If you don't mind mentioning, what camcorder are you using? Are you capturing in hi-def (note that 16mm resolution is greater than our present, consumer hi-def standard)? Perhaps you should check with MovieStuff if something may be done to minimize fringing with your equipment. Failing a solution there, it would be useful if someone has a de-prism filter for AviSynth.

Does your new expanded film-gate allow the 16mm stock to be captured edge to edge (including sprocket holes and optical soundtrack)? That might be helpful if there is an film-optical-reader filter for AviSynth (optical sound without the projector amp noise!).

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Spaced Ranger said:

BTW, "telecine" is film's 24fps converted to video's 30fps using one of various frame or field duplicating techniques. MovieStuff projector output is single frame in film format (24fps). In this non-telecined state, it is perfectly suitable for DVD (with added pull-down flag for the DVD player).

Thanks for the clarification!  Yes I was planning to use the pulldown flag, as I had done with the 8mm Puggo Edition.

BTW #2, the "anamorphic" format is optically squeezed image for optical expansion during projection. It is perfectly suitable for DVD (with added anamorphic flag for the DVD player to letterbox for 4:3 TV, or widen for 16:9 TV).

This shows how little I know... I didn't even know there was an anamorphic flag for use in DVD encoding.  Sounds like I will want to use it too!

Examination of your frame captures shows a noticeable color fringing. This is due to the quality of your camcorder lens? Double-checking the MovieStuff website samples shows similar fringing, only not as pronounced. If you don't mind mentioning, what camcorder are you using? Are you capturing in hi-def (note that 16mm resolution is greater than our present, consumer hi-def standard)? Perhaps you should check with MovieStuff if something may be done to minimize fringing with your equipment. Failing a solution there, it would be useful if someone has a de-prism filter for AviSynth.

Yes I am aware of the color "fringing".  I think it is a product of the camcorder I am using, which is a Sony TRV-900.  I am not capturing hi-def.  I know that 16mm has higher definition than consumer video formats, however this film is so rough (there is heavy grain, tons of scratches, spots, dropouts, fading, and - get this - even hairs on the borders that were printed into the film!), that I don't really see the point in investing in an upgraded camera to achieve a pristine capture of a bunch of fur balls.  There comes a point of diminishing returns.

Is there a deprism filter for AviSynth?  Yes, that might be useful here.

Does your new expanded film-gate allow the 16mm stock to be captured edge to edge (including sprocket holes and optical soundtrack)? That might be helpful if there is an film-optical-reader filter for AviSynth (optical sound without the projector amp noise!

Yes, and I just finished re-capturing the film including the frame borders and a little bit of the sprocket holes.  My intent was to possibly use that for stabilization, but whether or not that is possible, it does ensure that I am always getting the entire frame. I haven't posted any screen grabs or clips from this latest capture, but I'll try to get those up in a couple of days.

Note that the "entire frame" here does not equate to the entire frame in the original 35/70mm film.  The 16mm film is a bit cropped.

A film-optical reader filter for AviSynth???  That sounds ridiculously difficult.  My hats off to anyone who accomplishes that.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars