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Phantom Menace Discussion: Is the Duel of the fates a classic match? — Page 2

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bkev said:

Odd though this may sound, I think it would have worked better if you didn't have to cut between the three strands of plot in that part of the film. Duel of the Fates is meant to be really engaging, but I'm thrown off by the pacing of the cuts between it, the race to the throne room, and the space battle. Straight-up flair works best uninterrupted like that.

I like it but that's my one complaint.

I agree, the fight between Vader and Luke in Jedi was chopped up and it has always been really obnoxious to keep cutting back and forth between that, Ewoks, and Lando since in my opinion that duel is the most emotional one in the series. This problem obviously got much worse in the Phantom Menace, which deflated the excitement of the duel. 

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It looks cool, but it did really start the "meaningless battle" trend of the PT. I think the best PT duel were the ones involving Dooku, because there was dialogue (not the best, but still). Maul didn't speak, so there was no emotion in the duel (until after he killed Qui-Gon, and then you can feel Obi-Wan's anger as he attacks Maul), it was just a fight between the good guys and the bad guy; whereas with Dooku, you as a viewer could dislike him because he taunted the heroes like Vader taunted Luke. Most of the PT fights just seemed to be fighting for the sake of fighting.

A MUCH stronger duel, in my opinion, would have had Maul focus on Obi-Wan, being the younger and thus weaker of his opposition. Make him doubt himself, and have Qui-Gon reassuring him. Make the fight be Qui-Gon versus Maul for Obi-Wan's soul. It makes Qui-Gon look like a capable, confident master of the Force, develops Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's relationship, and makes Maul a sneaky, underhanded jerk we don't like. We're so invested in Obi-Wan's wavering alignment that we're shocked when Qui-Gon dies.

After Qui-Gon dies I would have included Maul taunting Obi-Wan about how he skewered Qui-Gon like a helpless child, have him portend the fall of the Republic under his master's plan, have him close his eyes like Palpatine on the second Death Star (it's like poetry) and comment on how he can feel Obi-Wan's anger, and how only Obi-Wan's hatred could destroy him. Maybe have him tease Obi-Wan about his feelings for his master. Make us afraid for Obi-Wan, who was already wavering on the edge of the dark side before, and make us hate Maul, too. Develop what was a criminally underused character. Then it worries us when we see Obi-Wan burst out of the gate to attack Maul, has he fallen? Did Maul turn him? When Obi-Wan falls down the shaft defeated, take a moment to have Qui-Gon (who we know transcended into the Force) communicate with Obi-Wan, to remember his training, that he believes in him, and that the Force will be with him, always (more poetry).

I dunno. That's my two cents.

Of course this all has EU explanations where there are two distinct Sith fighting styles, one that includes taunting to demoralize your enemy and one that includes staying silent to demoralize your enemy.

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Tyrphanax said:

When Obi-Wan falls down the shaft defeated, take a moment to have Qui-Gon (who we know transcended into the Force) communicate with Obi-Wan, to remember his training, that he believes in him, and that the Force will be with him, always (more poetry).

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Tyrphanax said:


After Qui-Gon dies I would have included Maul taunting Obi-Wan about how he skewered Qui-Gon like a helpless child, have him portend the fall of the Republic down the shaft.

 Fixed?

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RicOlie_2 said:

Tyrphanax said:

When Obi-Wan falls down the shaft defeated, take a moment to have Qui-Gon (who we know transcended into the Force) communicate with Obi-Wan, to remember his training, that he believes in him, and that the Force will be with him, always (more poetry).

 Unexpected plot twist!

Obi-Wan goes down the shaft first, remember.

TV's Frink said:

Tyrphanax said:


After Qui-Gon dies I would have included Maul taunting Obi-Wan about how he skewered Qui-Gon like a helpless child, have him portend the fall of the Republic down the shaft.

 Fixed?

Oops, thanks.

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Nice try, but Obi-Wan didn't fall down the shaft, he fell into it. And he wasn't defeated, Darth Maul just temporarily gained the upper hand.

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RicOlie_2 said:

Nice try, but Obi-Wan didn't fall down the shaft, he fell into it. And he wasn't defeated, Darth Maul just temporarily gained the upper hand.

Jesus, it was just hyperbole.

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Tyrphanax said:

Jesus said:

Nice try, but Obi-Wan didn't fall down the shaft, he fell into it. And he wasn't defeated, Darth Maul just temporarily gained the upper hand.

Jesus, it was just hyperbole.

 Sorry (not really), I thought you were just trying to pretend you didn't make a mistake when you really did, but I guess you didn't and I was being stupid.

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No, the duel sucks because it only involves wooden characters swinging sticks at each other.

The worst part is that the outcome of the battle is determined by nothing other than physical effort, but when Darth Maul defeats his opponents, he stands there like a cartoon to let Obi-Wan slice him in half. Typical bait and switch filmmaking with deus-ex-machina ending.

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Jesus said:

Tyrphanax said:

Jesus said:

Nice try, but Obi-Wan didn't fall down the shaft, he fell into it. And he wasn't defeated, Darth Maul just temporarily gained the upper hand.

Jesus, it was just hyperbole.

 Sorry (not really), I thought you were just trying to pretend you didn't make a mistake when you really did, but I guess you didn't and I was being stupid.

 Jesus, I just now saw what you did there!

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skyjedi2005 said:

I loved Ray Parks martial arts work, his kendo etc.

Thought Ewan was good as well.

But it seems a lot more visual, less than anything above a physical confrontation.

It lacked the meeting of mental Wills.

 Yep, and same thing, well even more-so, with Anakin v.s. Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith. Fighting over lava is so unnecessary when we already know how the fight ends from the start (both survive).

But with the Episode I fight - it always bothered me when Obi-Wan immediately kills Darth Maul - I would have liked to see them at least fight for a bit. The other thing that bothers me about the fight is that Qui-Gon engages him without waiting for his apprentice to catch up - that's not a good battle plan, they should have taken him together, just as Obi-Wan instructs Anakin to do against Dooku in the following film.

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 (Edited)

NeverarGreat said:

I was never much a fan of either the fight or the music, since they both seemed to have little to do with the rest of the movie.

 Most people say this fight was a highlight of the movie, and I accept I'm in a minority, but I never liked it either. There were some ideas in it that I liked - the calm Qui Gon versus the impatient Obi Wan - but it was less than the sum of its parts. Perhaps because, as you say, it didn't integrate with the movie. It was more or less "he's our enemy, let's have a fight then", "yes, OK, I agree."

I never got the love for Darth Maul either. I didn't like his "is it a tattoo, face paint or alien skin?" style, and he hardly said anything, plus he had a stock "gruff movie villain" voice. I mean, doesn't he just say "yes, my Lord", and about one other line? Maybe he could have had a "Boba Fett" type appeal, but to me, he doesn't - he just doesn't do (or represent) anything as interesting as Fett did in Empire.

It's also not helped by the rest of the film. On first watching, I didn't care about any of the characters, so dull were they, so I felt nothing when Qui Gon died. I know he's one of the less egregious characters in the movie, but it's hard to root for "the slightly less annoying one".

As for the martial arts - they're well and good, but a little too flashy for my taste, and a fore-warning of the empty twirling that was to come. The OT didn't need them to have amazing fight scenes.

The music for the fight is good though - it took me years to realise it, but it's one of the better PT musical pieces.

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 (Edited)

While the duel is action packed, and John Williams music is great, it pretty much sums up what is wrong with the PT:  There is nothing more to it then that.  What makes a great duel from the OT was the action AND the dialogue, and Duel of Fates lacks any dialogue.  In a sense, Lucas chose style over substance for the PT again.

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 (Edited)

CO said:

While the duel is action packed, and John Williams music is great, it pretty much sums up what is wrong with the PT:  There is nothing more to it then that.  What makes a great duel from the OT was the action AND the dialogue, and Duel of Fates lacks any dialogue.  In a sense, Lucas chose style over substance for the PT again.

To be fair, the force fields did show us a little about the Jedi characters - Qui Gon's patience vs Obi Wan's impetuousness, so there was an attempt to have some depth in the fight.

However, the scene didn't tell us anything meaningful about the conflict itself - both sides just agreed to fight each other because they were "the enemy". There was nothing personal at stake, and we knew absolutely nothing about Darth Maul - he was just a costume.

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grainger said:

To be fair, the force fields did show us a little about the Jedi characters - Qui Gon's patience vs Obi Wan's impetuousness

Another oddity of the writing, given that the entire movie up until that point was showing us that Qui Gon was impetuous and Obi Wan was patient.

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Ryan McAvoy said:

grainger said:

To be fair, the force fields did show us a little about the Jedi characters - Qui Gon's patience vs Obi Wan's impetuousness

Another oddity of the writing, given that the entire movie up until that point was showing us that Qui Gon was impetuous and Obi Wan was patient.

Good point. My understanding was that originally Obi Wan was the only Jedi in the film - and was impetuous, to match what Ben said in the OT - and then it was re-jigged when Qui Gon was added; perhaps this is a remnant of that.

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It just goes to show you -- Qui-Gon is one of the most pointless, superfluous characters ever created for the Star Wars Universe.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

It just goes to show you -- Qui-Gon is one of the most pointless, superfluous characters ever created for the Star Wars Universe.

 For me is just an OK character and most of the good stuff about Qui-Gon is Liam's interpretation and not the character itself.

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 (Edited)

I'd say most of the good stuff about Qui-Gon comes from the EU, myself. I got the impression he was a good character from somewhere, and after watching TPM the last time, I realized it certainly wasn't from the movie itself.

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grainger said:

CO said:

While the duel is action packed, and John Williams music is great, it pretty much sums up what is wrong with the PT:  There is nothing more to it then that.  What makes a great duel from the OT was the action AND the dialogue, and Duel of Fates lacks any dialogue.  In a sense, Lucas chose style over substance for the PT again.

To be fair, the force fields did show us a little about the Jedi characters - Qui Gon's patience vs Obi Wan's impetuousness, so there was an attempt to have some depth in the fight.

However, the scene didn't tell us anything meaningful about the conflict itself - both sides just agreed to fight each other because they were "the enemy". There was nothing personal at stake, and we knew absolutely nothing about Darth Maul - he was just a costume.

 This is it exactly. I remember reading a synopsis of the first draft to TPM, where the generator room was actually the planetary shield generator. If Maul was guarding the generator and the Jedi were fighting for control of it to stop more Federation craft from landing, it would have integrated into the movie far more. But the battle itself would have remained impersonal.

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Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him. Maybe it does come from the EU? I don't see it in the movie either.

I think Neeson does a decent job with what he's given, and the character as written isn't actively bad - just a bit dull. Qui-Gon's one of the better Jedi characters in the prequels, come to think of it, but that's not saying much.

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 (Edited)

I wonder what it would have been like if Maul, instead of speaking per se, just laughed maniacally throughout the entire duel. Depending on how it was done, it could come off as incredibly sinister and unsettling.

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grainger said:

Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him.

He is supposed to be wise.  But his most frequent line seems to be "I don't know".

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

grainger said:

Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him.

He is supposed to be wise.  But his most frequent line seems to be "I don't know".

A quote I really like from Data in ST:TNG, is that "I don't know" is the "beginning of wisdom". People are often afraid to admit when they don't know, so I'm with Qui Gon (and Data) on this one.