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We all know JWs score for AOTC was severely curtailed but I've also heard Williams was very upset with the resulting cut of TPM...Anyone know any more?
John Williams vs. Prequel Trilogy
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I've also heard that, but never seen a reputable source.
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Yeah, I read somewhere that he wrote a letter to Lucas about it (!).
I don't think its true, and I didn't hear any detail of what was it that was modifed or removed. If it was, I gotta believe he would have been even more vocal RE: the copy/paste job for AOTC; unless he had no time and himself suggested that they re-use some scores. either way, it sucks that the Battle of Geonosis did not have its own theme - all the other battles did.
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I also heard the rumour about John Williams writing Lucas a letter essentially disowning the score for TPM as it appears in the film. I don't know if I believe it or not, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me considering how badly the score is butchered in that film. The scores of the OT always flowed, and they certainly never got cut off mid piece to insert a different theme for a different scene. That was part of the problem with the SE's, they messed up John Williams original score. In the prequels it's like George stopped caring at all, all three movies are an ugly hack and slash job with the music just cobbled together. After TPM I get the distinct impression that JW washed his hands of the process basically only wrote a few unique pieces per film and let George fill in the blanks with the incidental music from TPM.
I wish I could remember where I read about that letter, I think it was AICN.
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Could anyone explain to me how the score doesn't fit into the PT movies? Or some examples of flaws / hackneyed work?
I believe to have paid enough attention to this stuff when I used to watch these movies, and it always came off rather well to me.
(The "arena" track that you can also hear on the Clones DVD menu, has been replaced by the AniPad love theme, and inserted into the Evil Jedi Temple march in ROTS instead; given how awful the romantic scene preceding the monster fight was, and how this track doesn't sound evil enough for the scene it was eventually inserted into, I'd say overall it wasn't the smartest decision, but it didn't seem awful or disturbing or anything like that.
The music that hits in when the Jedis arrive has been taken from the Podrace (which instead used the same track from the Nubians' "shield crisis"), but fits pretty well anyway.
At any rate, there's some awkward "copy&paste" thing going on in the PT, but never to a level of badness imo.
The only part I didn't like was the Conveyer Belt that kept jumping between the eponymous track, the Force them and AniPad. It was bearable, though.)
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I always liked the music in TPM (which I say rather than the "score" as I don't have a copy of it). But AOTC really seems to recycle the music from TPM quite a bit, which seems to have been Lucas' fault rather than Williams'.
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Ok, I can't think of any other examples of that other than the Genosis landing scene (taken from the TPM opening scene) - it did fit the sequence, though.
(Maybe Williams ran out of ideas for "mysterious ship arrival on a foggy planet" after composing the assassination bit? That was a cool one, as well.)
The moment in which Anakin turns from grief to wrath was brilliantly captured in the music, imo. Sent a shiver through my spine the first time I saw it, still does.
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twooffour said:
(The "arena" track that you can also hear on the Clones DVD menu, has been replaced by the AniPad love theme, and inserted into the Evil Jedi Temple march in ROTS instead;
Oh god, you had to bring this up :( IMO, its much worse than 'nooooooooooo'
Anakin declaring his allegiance was one thing, but doing a full 180 and taking an active role in killing the other jedi just a few minutes later was a major stretch. The choice of music when we first see him with the clone troopers occupying the temple made it worse.
In the trailer, the music from ROTJ (when emperor is electrocuting luke) was much more powerful and got my hopes up. Of course I knew it was just for the trailer, but was hoping for something similiar. [sigh]
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twooffour said:
The moment in which Anakin turns from grief to wrath was brilliantly captured in the music, imo. Sent a shiver through my spine the first time I saw it, still does.
im assuming you are referring to the tusken slaughter - yeah that was excellent. a lot of people don't like the iris out on anakins face but i thought it was cool (i also remember it differently - I could have sworn in the theatre the first time I saw it, the iris closed in right on his eyes for a second and the completely closed, but i guess its not like that)
the other piece I liked was in ROTS right after obi-wan says "im so sorry" to padme and we go to a collection of scenes of anakins executions on mustafar and then ends with him looking over the volcano. It was the only time I felt the PT finally had something the reminded me of all the great moments in ESB.
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About TPM, here is a close version how it would have been: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqUkk8X8vE
John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/
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Well, I think the main problem lies in the way the scenes are put together - had the conversion happened at an earlier point with some stuff inbetween, the Jedi Temple attack could've been more believable.
So I tend to overlook the scriptural (;) context when talking about music choice and the like - I just think it was somewhat meh and anti-climactic for the scene (and evidently so as it was c&p'd from some wacky arena scene with wisecracking heroes stabbing giant enemy crabs).
It kinda works on the level that it represents Anakin's mind at the time (not evil and hate-filled, but cold and focused, marching forward with a "what has Tobe done" attitude - and for an idealistic march theme, the piece is actually pretty dark) - but overall it's kinda lame.
Not the kind of abomination unto the LORD to me as it seems to be to you, though :)
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fishmanlee said:
About TPM, here is a close version how it would have been: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqUkk8X8vE
Fuck the German Nazis, I can't watch it here :(
:O
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twooffour said:
"what has Tobe done"
For Tobar.
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I would very much like to see a source on the Williams rumor, if anyone has it.
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Tyrphanax said:
twooffour said:
"what has Tobe done"
For Tobar.
Its a Good day to do what has tobe done by tobar and.. ah fuck it :D
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twooffour said:
fishmanlee said:
About TPM, here is a close version how it would have been: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqUkk8X8vE
German Nazis, I can't watch it here :(
:O
this one work? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WyVs_L8z8E&feature=fvst
John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/
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Nah, neither... tried it on certain, um, "cirumvention" sites but they don't show results for the video title, either... oh well.
Here's another instead:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYfibSaDHrM
In the end, probably fits the scene better than any other piece of music ever composed in human history ;)
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To be honest I'm not entirely sure where I heard John Williams had 'issues' with the editing of his music on TPM. I have a feeling it may have been on someone's soundtrack blog, where there was a download of the 'expanded' score, and possibly a little blurb about the music underneath...
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I want to say the source people are thinking of is Film Score Monthly, and that his exact words were "artistically betrayed." You might have to ask someone from JWFan, though.
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Bloody hell...'Artistically betrayed'? Don't suppose it matters a great deal as he did both subsequent SW prequels and IJATKOTCS (even as an acronym that's a mouthful!!)
Considering Williams' age I reckon he'll just stick exclusively with Spielberg for the rest of his career...
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fishmanlee said:
About TPM, here is a close version how it would have been: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjqUkk8X8vE
This is the first time I have watched anything from The Phantom Menace and became excited...im actually excited and on the edge of my seat watching that. Blimey, Lucas dropped the ball completely by messing about with the music. Perhaps he did have a good film on his hand after all.
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Just to let you know, If Spielberg had not suggested a re-edit, there would be no need to replace the music sooooo....
John Williams score to Return of the Jedi Remastered/Remixed:
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/JOHN-WILLIAMS-Star-Wars-Episode-VI-Return-of-the-Jedi-Remastered-Edition/topic/14606/page/1/
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fishmanlee said:
Just to let you know, If Spielberg had not suggested a re-edit, there would be no need to replace the music sooooo....
What is the story about Spielberg suggesting a re-edit?
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Cuchulainn said:
Bloody hell...'Artistically betrayed'? Don't suppose it matters a great deal as he did both subsequent SW prequels and IJATKOTCS (even as an acronym that's a mouthful!!)
Considering Williams' age I reckon he'll just stick exclusively with Spielberg for the rest of his career...
been reading some more about this ever since the thread was created and found some more info from someone that I guess knows more about this.
pretty strong words. no doubt about it. bad enough for lucas to frustrate the cast but to piss off john williams? about as close to an MVP an artist can get on star wars.
from what I read, he also did not score anything for genosis because the scenes were still in flux, so the editors just added the scores based on existing music. I thought that was just for the droid factory scene?
so the script for AOTC was not provided to actors until a week before principal photography and the editing was still premature to a point that a huge set piece couldn't have its own original score created. lovely
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The Geonosis arrival scene was taken from the TPM opening, the Jedi battle from the Podrace (which didn't make it into the film), Yoda's arrival from the existing Podrace score (not sure if entirely, but the first few minutes for sure), and the AniPad love theme may have been used elsewhere, too.
The droid factory had its own track, though ;)