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Is Revenge of the Sith the Best or Worst Prequel? — Page 9

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DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

I don’t agree. While I will concede the execution at times leaves something to desire, to me it’s pretty clear after he attacks Mace he decides to serve Darth Sidious and from that point on is committed to that choice, and get’s more consumed with the dark side as time progresses. While the entire sequence felt somewhat rushed to me, in a time where important character development is explained through a tiny flashback, it seems quite extensive by comparison. I will admit that I personally would have preferred an Anakin, that rationally chooses the quick and easy path, rather than coming across as kind of gullible, and crazed, but that’s the story Lucas wanted to tell, and aside from some weak acting and dialogue here and there that story works for me mostly.

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DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life?

Depends on how you see it. Palpatine was an important person to him, and he was the only person he believed could help him save Padme from death. Palpatine even points out (probably lies) that he has to kill in order to be strong enough in the Dark Side to help Padme. Not to mention that Anakin’s trust in the Jedi had been severely weakened within the last days. Or maybe even weeks? (I’ve never been able to tell how much time ROTS is supposed to cover.) At this point he genuinely sees them as a threat to democracy, peace, and his own warped ideas of how to maintain order. There’s a lot of stuff swirling around in his mind when the Windu/Palpatine fight happens, and Palpatine knows how to take advantage of it.

Plus, Anakin was never that stable a person to begin with. Seriously, watch the scene where he confesses to Padme after the death of his mother and destroying the Tusken village. He’s basically a rambling, emotionally unstable sociaopath with delusions of grandeur, very much in consistent with the stuff he does in the next film. And the closest he ever gets to any form of repentance or regret is simply “I know I’m better than this”, which can be interpreted in many ways. He talks about how Obi-Wan is holding him back, he talks about becoming all-powerful, saving everyone, cheating death, etc. And of course this all ties in with him in TPM, a slave with actual knowledge of what it means to be powerless, unlike other Jedi which were raised in comfort, and a relative degree of wealth and independence since they were infants. Even in that film he talks about Jedi being all-powerful. In AOTC he’s frustrating at not having achieved that goal, and in ROTS he gets the opportunity to actually accomplish it (in his mind anyway), and the potential death of another loved one is an extra push. And the people he’s blamed for the lack of this power essentially “proves” themselves (in his mind) to be against what he believes in. And of course Palpatine is manipulating, suggesting, motivating, all of these ideas and concepts.
(As aside note, I’d also like to point out that the only time in the PT when “adult” Anakin seems happy and somewhat stable is during the war. That’s hardly a good sign and something which the EU has since put great emphasis on.)

I’ll grant that these themes and schemes aren’t always that brilliantly communicated, but they are there, and they are generally quite consistent.

DominicCobb said:

and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

There’s very little “rational” about anything Anakin ever does. He’s all emotion most of the time.

I think this quote from Yoda summarizes most of what happens in ROTS;
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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SilverWook said:

What’s hilarious is once Anakin has turned that first moral corner, Palpatine essentially fesses up that he actually doesn’t know how to keep Padme from dying.
But Anakin keeps on Sithing with the vague B.S. promise from Palpy they’ll find the secret out together. How? If Palpy didn’t learn it from Plagueis already, I don’t think he ever would.
And since Anakin’s visions revolve around Padme dying in childbirth, there isn’t exactly a whole lot of time to find the secret, if it exists at all.

Well, technically he never said he could actually do it, only that it was a Sith ability requiring the Dark Side and that Plageuis had given his apprentice all of his knowledge.

I guess, after killing Mace there really wasn’t much else for Anakin to do than hope that he and Palpatine could figure it out together. Though, I think the whole “we can discover the secret together” -thing was Palpatine’s way of guaranteeing Anakin’s cooperation until he got consumed by the Dark Side. Otherwise Anakin might have quickly turned on him.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
Original Trilogy Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Beyond the OT Documentaries/Making-Ofs (YouTube, Vimeo, etc. finds)
Amazon link to my novel; Dawn of the Karabu.

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 (Edited)

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

I don’t agree. While I will concede the execution at times leaves something to desire, to me it’s pretty clear after he attacks Mace he decides to serve Darth Sidious and from that point on is committed to that choice, and get’s more consumed with the dark side as time progresses. While the entire sequence felt somewhat rushed to me, in a time where important character development is explained through a tiny flashback, it seems quite extensive by comparison. I will admit that I personally would have preferred an Anakin, that rationally chooses the quick and easy path, rather than coming across as kind of gullible, and crazed, but that’s the story Lucas wanted to tell, and aside from some weak acting and dialogue here and there that story works for me mostly.

There’s nothing “extensive” about the approach used here. We know that the dark side can cause moments of impassioned, irrational use (Luke in ROTJ and TLJ, Anakin in ROTS), but we are given nothing in ROTS to make believable Anakin’s staying along that path forever. It wouldn’t have been hard to do either. Anakin should’ve have been shown to be using the dark side anyway to help win the war. But no, Palpatine has to goad him into killing Dooku, and even after he feels bad about it. Anakin’s the biggest hero in the galaxy until the very moment he becomes the biggest villain in the galaxy on a dime, and it doesn’t making any sense and it doesn’t work. Lucas had three films to make this right (its literally the main reason for the trilogy) and he fucked it up with a completely inconsistent and schizophrenic progression of the character. It’s probably the single biggest problem of any of the PT, and it definitely makes me consider that ROTS isn’t the best one.

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ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life?

Depends on how you see it. Palpatine was an important person to him, and he was the only person he believed could help him save Padme from death. Palpatine even points out (probably lies) that he has to kill in order to be strong enough in the Dark Side to help Padme. Not to mention that Anakin’s trust in the Jedi had been severely weakened within the last days. Or maybe even weeks? (I’ve never been able to tell how much time ROTS is supposed to cover.) At this point he genuinely sees them as a threat to democracy, peace, and his own warped ideas of how to maintain order. There’s a lot of stuff swirling around in his mind when the Windu/Palpatine fight happens, and Palpatine knows how to take advantage of it.

Anakin’s been loyal to the Jedi for most of his life. We’re supposed to believe that the council asking him to spy on Palpatine is reason enough for him to murder every single Jedi ever?

Think about him vs. the sand people. They did something far worse and more personal and he didn’t even know any of them. It’s a massive leap to genocide of his friends, and we aren’t given nearly enough motivation to believe it.

Plus, Anakin was never that stable a person to begin with. Seriously, watch the scene where he confesses to Padme after the death of his mother and destroying the Tusken village. He’s basically a rambling, emotionally unstable sociaopath with delusions of grandeur, very much in consistent with the stuff he does in the next film. And the closest he ever gets to any form of repentance or regret is simply “I know I’m better than this”, which can be interpreted in many ways. He talks about how Obi-Wan is holding him back, he talks about becoming all-powerful, saving everyone, cheating death, etc. And of course this all ties in with him in TPM, a slave with actual knowledge of what it means to be powerless, unlike other Jedi which were raised in comfort, and a relative degree of wealth and independence since they were infants. Even in that film he talks about Jedi being all-powerful. In AOTC he’s frustrating at not having achieved that goal, and in ROTS he gets the opportunity to actually accomplish it (in his mind anyway), and the potential death of another loved one is an extra push. And the people he’s blamed for the lack of this power essentially “proves” themselves (in his mind) to be against what he believes in. And of course Palpatine is manipulating, suggesting, motivating, all of these ideas and concepts.
(As aside note, I’d also like to point out that the only time in the PT when “adult” Anakin seems happy and somewhat stable is during the war. That’s hardly a good sign and something which the EU has since put great emphasis on.)

Anakin has moments of instability, but he seems to have become a rational adult for most of ROTS. Not to mention, Anakin being a crazed sob isn’t exactly how he should be turning, he’s supposed to be seduced by the power of the dark side, not tricked into it because he thought they had one specific power he needed.

I’ll grant that these themes and schemes aren’t always that brilliantly communicated, but they are there, and they are generally quite consistent.

They are there, but no need to say “brilliantly,” most of them aren’t communicated at all.

DominicCobb said:

and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

There’s very little “rational” about anything Anakin ever does. He’s all emotion most of the time.

I think this quote from Yoda summarizes most of what happens in ROTS;
“Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will.”

I’ll echo what I said to Dre. It’s all about believability. We know Anakin is an emotional guy, yes. It’s certainly possible to believe this kind of guy would turn dark side/genocidal maniac. But the way it’s portrayed just doesn’t work. Lucas skipped to many steps in trying to cram everything into ROTS. He had to check the box on “Jedi genocide,” but it just doesn’t make sense in terms of the sequencing of what happens. If Anakin were to attack the Jedi and kill younglings after everything else in the film that happens (when we actually see him become believably consumed by the dark side while killing the CIS and fighting Obi-Wan), it would’ve made sense. But to have it come literally right after his decision to turn is too big a leap to be believable.

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well i believe in everything that happened in RotS and i always have. i get why some would think it’s rushed but i understand why he does almost everything that he does.

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DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

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ZkinandBonez said:

SilverWook said:

What’s hilarious is once Anakin has turned that first moral corner, Palpatine essentially fesses up that he actually doesn’t know how to keep Padme from dying.
But Anakin keeps on Sithing with the vague B.S. promise from Palpy they’ll find the secret out together. How? If Palpy didn’t learn it from Plagueis already, I don’t think he ever would.
And since Anakin’s visions revolve around Padme dying in childbirth, there isn’t exactly a whole lot of time to find the secret, if it exists at all.

Well, technically he never said he could actually do it, only that it was a Sith ability requiring the Dark Side and that Plageuis had given his apprentice all of his knowledge.

I guess, after killing Mace there really wasn’t much else for Anakin to do than hope that he and Palpatine could figure it out together. Though, I think the whole “we can discover the secret together” -thing was Palpatine’s way of guaranteeing Anakin’s cooperation until he got consumed by the Dark Side. Otherwise Anakin might have quickly turned on him.

I think Palpatine was the apprentice who learned everything and he was lying to Anakin about not knowing how to keep people from dying. I’ve been working on color correcting AOTC so I’ve watched a few times recently and it hit me that the dreams and Shmi’s death could be the force or they could be a plant by Palpatine with him keeping Shmi alive until the dreams drove Anakin to look for her and when he knew Anakin was there, he let her die in Anakin’s arms to heighten Anakin’s emotional reaction. While on the surface it seems that there are many setbacks for Palpatine, pretty much everything goes his way in the PT. He even brags that Anakin will be his new apprentice, though the slicing and burning and the need for the suit might not have been entirely expected, it did create a fearsome figure in Vader to do Palpatine’s bidding.

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 (Edited)

Yeah, it’s interesting that such a suit design was handy. I doubt a normal person with such injuries would be stuffed into a metal gargoyle helmet. I’ve always presumed it resembles ancient Sith armor.

I sort of wanted to see Anakin living a double life as a Jedi and as Palpatine’s secret henchman, (mirroring his own double life as Sidious) which would have required the Vader disguise long before he was injured.

I noticed recently Palpatine isn’t even trying to hide his face when communicating with the Trade Federation guys after his transformation. Not that Nute and the gang were even capable of connecting the dots. 😉

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yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

What sounds good on paper doesn’t translate properly on screen. We know that Palpatine and Anakin are friends, but we don’t really see concrete examples of Palps twisting his mind toward the dark side, or at least not enough of them. He just mentions a story in direct relation to Anakin’s Padme problem. What does Palpatine say that would make Anakin distrust the Jedi? Just a platitude about power. I don’t think that’s enough to make Anakin first of all distrust the organization he’s spent more than a decade with, let alone decide to murder them. It really is a turn on a dime, he’s goes from merely frustrated with the council specifically, to wanting to kill every single one of them, without any believable justification besides “I will do anything you ask.” The idea that Anakin ultimately thinks “the Jedi are evil” is a good one, but there isn’t much of anything to support him getting to that point in the film. What we’re ultimately supposed to believe is that Anakin would willingly kill his friends, colleagues, mentors, and innocent children, just to maybe one day find a way to save Padme. And that’s a ridiculous jump for his character to make.

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

What sounds good on paper doesn’t translate properly on screen. We know that Palpatine and Anakin are friends, but we don’t really see concrete examples of Palps twisting his mind toward the dark side, or at least not enough of them. He just mentions a story in direct relation to Anakin’s Padme problem. What does Palpatine say that would make Anakin distrust the Jedi? Just a platitude about power. I don’t think that’s enough to make Anakin first of all distrust the organization he’s spent more than a decade with, let alone decide to murder them. It really is a turn on a dime, he’s goes from merely frustrated with the council specifically, to wanting to kill every single one of them, without any believable justification besides “I will do anything you ask.” The idea that Anakin ultimately thinks “the Jedi are evil” is a good one, but there isn’t much of anything to support him getting to that point in the film. What we’re ultimately supposed to believe is that Anakin would willingly kill his friends, colleagues, mentors, and innocent children, just to maybe one day find a way to save Padme. And that’s a ridiculous jump for his character to make.

I’m not sure if Anakin would consider all Jedi as “friends” or “mentors.” He personally knew only a handful, and even them he resented at times. And his disillusionment with the Jedi goes way beyond just them asking him to spy on Palpatine. This isn’t too well communicated, though is is either implied or mentioned at least once in either AOTC or ROTS. Also I don’t see why Anakin’s belief that the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic wouldn’t be a big motivator? It’s a bit weird that Lucas expects you to remember one conversation from the previous film, but I wouldn’t say his “the Jedi are evil” opinion is random or out of character. As for killing the younglings, then we’re back at debating how the Dark Side works.

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, but the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

Star Wars is Surrealism, not Science Fiction (essay)
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ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

yotsuya said:

DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

DominicCobb said:

snooker said:

“Wait, Mace Windu, don’t kill Palpatine, it’s not the Jedi way!”

Literally 15 minutes later:

Anakin slaughters the Jedi, including defenseless toddlers

This is the biggest logic leap in the entire franchise, and it completely ruins the rest of the movie for me.

I unfortunately have to agree. The kid’s all over the place. It’s telling that the only way for the novelization to make this work was to spell out that Anakin was literally out of his mind and seemingly incapable of making rational decisions.

Isn’t that how the Dark Side works though? Prior to ROTS we saw Anakin loose it completely in AOTC when he slaughtered an entire village (incl. the children), and even Luke went kinda berserk in ROTJ after Vader threatened to turn Leia. That’s a pretty agressive and wild outburst for an otherwise fairly calm and rational character. ROTS even emphasises Anakin’s yellow eyes to illustrate that he has been completely consumed by the Dark Side.

Well sure, but the problem is he turns to the dark side forever on a dime.

In the two situations you referred to, big emotional moments spark them to lash out with the dark side, after which they both later repented/regretted. In ROTS, I guess we can say that Windu almost killing Palpatine is a big emotional moment, but is it really enough to push him past the point of no return and seemingly turn the dark side switch on and lock it there for the rest of his life? No… and the film tries to make it out that he’s doing this semi-rationally, as a means to save Padme (he even second guesses himself, saying “What have I done?”). But… no, he’s got no problem murdering his friends and colleagues minutes later.

He’s all over the place, and the motivation for the consummation you refer to just isn’t there.

He doesn’t turn on a dime. We find out that Palpatine has been his mentor and whispering to him since TPM. Anakin holds Palpatine in high regard. In AOTC we are faced with how rebellious and arrogant Anakin is. He bucks the rules and starts a relationship with Padme. He forms a forbidden attachment (in my mind this is a failing of the Jedi that rather than actually train Jedi how to handle themselves, they just forbid everything that is remotely dangerous). When Tuskin Raiders murder his mother, he slaughters an entire village in his rage. In ROTS he seems to have grown up, but he is again having nightmares. This time of Padme dying instead of his mother. And Palpatine leads him along. He never promises any answers. The entire PT, we see Palpatine playing both side and being sneaky. I think there is plenty there to suggest that Palpatine is treating Anakin the same way he is treating the Republic. Both dreams (Shmi and Padme) are planted by Palpatine. Palpatine keeps Shmi alive until Anakin arrives. Later Palpatine keeps Anakin alive to get him into the new suit. Possilbly even longer. You could tie it into Palpatine in Jedi still keeping Vader alive and when Vader kills him he is doomed to die and not just because the force lightning fried his suit. This ties in with Darth Plagueis being Palpatine’s mentor. He could keep others from dying, but not himself. And the final thing that cinched Anakin’s fall making complete sense for me was the audio of the scene when Anakin kneels after Mace goes out the window. Listen to the audio. It reminds me of The Voice in Dune. In that moment Anakin is teetering. He no longer trusts the Jedi but he has not given over to anger. Palpatine pulls him down and makes him his servant. When next we see him, he is striding into the Jedi temple with yellow eyes and slaughters anyone who stands against him. Shortly after he even chokes Padme. It was like driving over a steep hill. Once on the down side, he was carried along and only years later when Luke was about to die did he find his way back. But the way I see it, is he was pushed over the top by Palpatine. He didn’t exactly go willingly.

What sounds good on paper doesn’t translate properly on screen. We know that Palpatine and Anakin are friends, but we don’t really see concrete examples of Palps twisting his mind toward the dark side, or at least not enough of them. He just mentions a story in direct relation to Anakin’s Padme problem. What does Palpatine say that would make Anakin distrust the Jedi? Just a platitude about power. I don’t think that’s enough to make Anakin first of all distrust the organization he’s spent more than a decade with, let alone decide to murder them. It really is a turn on a dime, he’s goes from merely frustrated with the council specifically, to wanting to kill every single one of them, without any believable justification besides “I will do anything you ask.” The idea that Anakin ultimately thinks “the Jedi are evil” is a good one, but there isn’t much of anything to support him getting to that point in the film. What we’re ultimately supposed to believe is that Anakin would willingly kill his friends, colleagues, mentors, and innocent children, just to maybe one day find a way to save Padme. And that’s a ridiculous jump for his character to make.

I’m not sure if Anakin would consider all Jedi as “friends” or “mentors.” He personally knew only a handful, and even them he resented at times.

Anakin lives with and worked with the Jedi for over a decade. One would assume he was at least a friendly aquaintance of more than “an handful,” more likely he knew hundreds. We only really see him specifically frustrated with two Jedi, Obi-wan and Windu (you could extend this I suppose to the whole council), and even then his frustrations are miles away from ‘ready and willing to murder them on a moments notice.’ If Anakin has a problem with the Jedi in general or didn’t get along well with any old Jedi in the order, we should have seen as much. But no, he’s fine being a Jedi, until he isn’t and is killing all of them.

The way Lucas conveyed Anakin’s friction and dissatisfaction with the Jedi was wholly inadequate.

And his disillusionment with the Jedi goes way beyond just them asking him to spy on Palpatine. This isn’t too well communicated, though is is either implied or mentioned at least once in either AOTC or ROTS. Also I don’t see why Anakin’s belief that the Jedi were trying to take over the Republic wouldn’t be a big motivator? It’s a bit weird that Lucas expects you to remember one conversation from the previous film, but I would say his “the Jedi are evil” opinion is random or out of character. As for killing the younglings, then were back at debating how the Dark Side works.

Anakin’s disillusionment that you speak of is just him not liking one of the rules and mentioning once or twice that Obi-wan is holding him back. Quite a ways away from thinking the whole organization is evil.

The idea that Anakin thinks the Jedi are plotting to take over is one of the least believable things in the whole film. Palpatine says it and Anakin just accepts it outright, with no evidence put forth. Sure, Mace was about to kill Palpatine, but then again Palpatine’s a Sith Lord who was literally trying to kill Mace a second before, not to mention Anakin sent him there, so it’s not like that’s really any evidence that there’s a “plot.”

As for how the dark side works, I don’t think it should be a simple switch that you turn on that suddenly makes you completely evil. Everything else in the films suggests it’s a dark and seductive power that corrupts you over time.

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

In the broad strokes lore-wise maybe, but they way things are executed does in fact imply things about Anakin’s character and the dark side that don’t make any sense. When telling a filmic story, cinematic terms matter a whole lot. I don’t care if it makes sense when you read the wookieepedia summary, if I’m seeing it dramatized, I need to see things play out in a way that’s believable.

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ZkinandBonez said:

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

Exactly. The points are all there for people who watch the films repeatedly. It is not clearly done for the casual observer, though a lot might catch certain things and not question his turn. I think one of the biggest issues of the PT is that is really isn’t a prequel at all, it is a flashback. We already know Anakin becomes Vader so things aren’t setup very well if you follow the story chronologically. But the points are there. Palpatine maneuvers Anakin into an impossible position - save his friend and mentor who just might be able to help Padme or save a revered Jedi master who seems to be trying to take over the Republic. Which one is his duty to the Republic? Which one is the right choice? And as we see, he listens to Palpatine. He killed Dooku on Palpatine’s order. So when Palpatine has Anakin in that vulnerable state, he uses the dark side of the force to pull him the rest of the way over. He goes and slaughters the Jedi to preserve the Republic. It becomes the very thing he joked with Padme in ATOC. In point after subtle point, Lucas reinforced Anakin’s fall.

And it seems clear that Palpatine is the one person Anakin trusts the most. So if Palpatine says something, Anakin will believe it. And he will believe it over the Jedi because of his long acquaintance and friendship with Palpatine. He probably has had more contact with Palpatine than any single Jedi. Palpatine made sure of that.

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yotsuya said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I don’t think anyone here is claiming that ROTS communicates all of it’s themes and ideas as well as it should have, the point is that they are there. Lore-wise the PT works quite well, but cinematically it fails on many points.

Exactly. The points are all there for people who watch the films repeatedly. It is not clearly done for the casual observer, though a lot might catch certain things and not question his turn. I think one of the biggest issues of the PT is that is really isn’t a prequel at all, it is a flashback. We already know Anakin becomes Vader so things aren’t setup very well if you follow the story chronologically. But the points are there. Palpatine maneuvers Anakin into an impossible position - save his friend and mentor who just might be able to help Padme or save a revered Jedi master who seems to be trying to take over the Republic. Which one is his duty to the Republic? Which one is the right choice? And as we see, he listens to Palpatine. He killed Dooku on Palpatine’s order. So when Palpatine has Anakin in that vulnerable state, he uses the dark side of the force to pull him the rest of the way over. He goes and slaughters the Jedi to preserve the Republic. It becomes the very thing he joked with Padme in ATOC. In point after subtle point, Lucas reinforced Anakin’s fall.

I caught all the points my first viewing. When I first saw it I was looking for the boxes to be checked off - ‘now he turns on Mace, now he kills the Jedi, now he fights Obi-wan.’ And they were checked! But the thing is that as I’ve gotten older and seen the films more that I realize how slapdash the sequence of events is. Lucas seemed to have the broad outline sketched out to begin with but never found a seamless way to piece it all together. To that end I sympathize with what some have said in this thread about ROTS being the worst of the PT - it does feel at times like slideshow storytelling.

And it seems clear that Palpatine is the one person Anakin trusts the most. So if Palpatine says something, Anakin will believe it. And he will believe it over the Jedi because of his long acquaintance and friendship with Palpatine. He probably has had more contact with Palpatine than any single Jedi. Palpatine made sure of that.

I don’t think that’s nearly as clear as you make it out to be (though again, I agree that’s what Lucas was going for). There’s literally no reason, based on what we see in the films, to think that Anakin would have had more contact with Palpatine than “any single Jedi,” when, in AOTC for example, they share exactly one very brief scene, whereas Anakin and Obi-wan spend almost half of the film together.

Either way, even if Anakin believes Palpatine over the Jedi, him believing Palpatine’s lie about the “plot” doesn’t make sense. Before that scene, we only have one other scene where Palpatine disparages the Jedi to Anakin, and he seems taken aback and defends them. Now sure, you could say that what Palpatine said there stuck with him, but still based on his reaction there (and lack of evidence to support the claim), one would think Anakin would be at least a little surprised that Palpatine says there’s a plot against him and the Senate. But no… he doesn’t just accept what Palpatine says as truth, he agrees with him, which suggests that Anakin must have come to that conclusion himself… but based on what? Sure you could say the dark side in that moment suddenly warped his mind, but even if that were the case, shouldn’t we have seen or heard something to suggest that? Him having a premonition or even just sensing betrayal or something? Nope, we just see Anakin being remorseful in one second about attacking Windu, and being a possessed slave to Palpatine’s orders the next.

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Wait, so Anakin doesn’t have one of these on his back? 😛

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Where were you in '77?

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What would’ve made Anakin’s destruction of the Jedi much easier to buy is if there weren’t small children in the Jedi Order.

The Person in Question

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The whole Youngling angle is never really delved into. The Jedi takes kids off to train them, (I presume willingly) and they apparently never see their families again? Or have any contact? Ten years is a long time for Anakin not to have even communicated with his Mother. Oh yeah, they let her remain in slavery! Qui-Gon at least tried to free Shmi.
No wonder Ani was pissed off at the Jedi.

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Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

The whole Youngling angle is never really delved into. The Jedi takes kids off to train them, (I presume willingly) and they apparently never see their families again? Or have any contact? Ten years is a long time for Anakin not to have even communicated with his Mother. Oh yeah, they let her remain in slavery! Qui-Gon at least tried to free Shmi.
No wonder Ani was pissed off at the Jedi.

Clone Wars touches on this (and that is considered Canon by TPTB, including Lucas). They find young kids and yes, they take them and they never have ties to their family again. The Jedi are their family. But with Anakin we see that he is not a good fit for this family and he is closer to Palpatine. He argued with Obi-wan, Mace, chafes against the teachings of Yoda, complains about the Jedi accepting his appointment to the council but not making him a master. The only time we see him in any conflict with Palpatine is when Palpatine admits he knows the dark side of the force. And even then he quickly calms down and comes to Palpatine’s defense. Palpatine’s years of mentoring did their work. And if you include Clone Wars in the story, it provides even more fodder for Anakin to turn against the Jedi. First they force a padawan on him and then they kick her out of the order.

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Worst by far. The ending is a forgone conclusion, every plot thread must be tied off and is done so in a manner of: “its the last one just get it done”. The film to me has always been a boring and uninvolving experience that is far too long.

At least AOTC has some showmanship, some different things going on and an actual mystery of sorts.

A good writer could convey everything in ROTS in less than a reel of screen time.

That said the novelization obliterates the film with great character insight.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
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I personally like this movie but anything said by Nattilie Portman is cringe.

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ROTS because it is not as politics heavily based, don’t get me wrong to get to the OT you need to have the politics, and the AOTC was a bore because it was that film which needed to tie up all the loose threads so that the next one can be worthy.

Ah 77, my favourite year even if i wasn’t alive

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Revenge of the Yes?

Where the “S” in “ROTS” is for the “s” in “Yes.”

I think.