logo Sign In

Info Wanted: ESB/ROTJ Audio Mix questions...

Author
Date
Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Okay.  I’ve never been able to get a straight answer to these questions, so I figured I’d start a new thread and ask:

  1. Is there a difference between the 1980 theatrical stereo and 1985 laserdisc stereo mixes for Empire?

  2. Is the 1980 theatrical stereo for Empire available on a LD release that isn’t time compressed?

  3. Was Jedi remixed in 1985?  Or in 1993 for that matter?

  4. Are the 1983 theatrical stereo and 1985 LD remix available for Jedi (if there’s any difference between the 1983/1985/1993 versions at all)?

Does anyone have WAV files of the 1980 Empire stereo mix, the 1983 Jedi stereo mix, and the 1985 mixes for both Empire and Jedi?

I have the 1993 mixes in uncompressed WAV form for all 3 movies, and I have the 1977 mono, 1977 stereo, and 1985 stereo mixes for Star Wars, but I only have the 1993 mixes for ESB and ROTJ.  So if anyone has the mixes mentioned above, please let me know (and if you have a 1985 Star Wars mix synchronized to the GOUT, let me know as well, because I only have the 3-part un-synced LD rip).

I’m planning on uploading (somewhere) a collection containing every possible pre-SE audio mix for all three movies, but I can’t really do this until I actually have all of them.

Thanks in advance.

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

2) Yes, 1425-84 was the catalog number in 1985. It was reissued in 1992 with the same number; however, the reissue added a PCM track [which might or might not be the same as the analog track.] I've got both issues sitting here, but haven't done much with them since they arrived....

5) I'm tentatively planning an analog capture using LD-V8000 -> M-Audiophile 2496 soundcard

one of these days.

 

Molly took the 3-part ANH'85, combined the parts, and sync'ed to GOUT. It's here too.

 

 

P.S. I did read your earlier questions about these. That's what prompted me to get the LDs

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

So, would this be an accurate breakdown of what mixes are available on what laserdiscs?  (All listed below are NOT time compressed)

Star Wars
1977 Theatrical Stereo:
- 1130-84

1985 Stereo Remix:
- 1130-85

1993 Stereo Remix:
- 0693-84 (Definitive Collection)
- 8763-85 ("Faces")

ESB 1980 Theatrical Stereo:
- 1425-84

ESB 1985 Stereo Remix:
- 1425-85

ESB 1993 Stereo Remix:
- 0693-84 (Definitive Collection)
- 8764-85 ("Faces")

ROTJ 1983 Theatrical Stereo (Possibly?)
- 1478-80

ROTJ 1985 Stereo Remix (Possibly?)
- 1478-85

ROTJ 1993 Stereo Remix
- 0693-84 (Definitive Collection)
- 8765-85 ("Faces")

Is this an accurate list?

Author
Time
Post link
Belbucus said:
Moth3r said: Belbucus - just thought of another question: you said previously you expected the '85 mix would have more dynamic range than the '77 mix. Is this the case?
I don’t remember making the statement but that’s nothing new. If I did, I would have been wrong. From a glance at the waveform it appears to be the least dynamic of all – including the mono mix. Maybe the thinking at the time was to optimize it for the “pre-home theater” / lower-volume crowd – who knows?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Sorry for the double post, but I won't waste any more time trying to escape the quote in this ghey WYSIWYG editor.

Belbucus was writing about ANH, but it seems true for ESB also in my limited experience thus far.
Last night I watched sides 2 & 5 of the 1425-84 reissue from 1992, and compared the analog & digital tracks. No doubt about it, the analog track (presumably 1980 theatrical) seems more dynamic to these ears than the digital, which I'll presume to be a remix.
So far I haven't discovered any elemental differences, alternate dialog takes or the like, but I'm 98% certain they're two different mixes.
I'll try recording a sample so others can hear....

 

Anybody familiar with the UK release 1478-70 ?
Neither LDDB nor blam1.com indicates "digital sound" on that one. If it's exclusively analogue, then maybe it's the theatrical mix (at PAL speed).

 

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

That's interesting if it's the case. They would have had to make a new "glass master" disc to add a digital track to any reissue. I don't know what video format the master tapes would have been at the time. Could they have simply added a digital track and left  the original analog alone?

Are you listening to the analog with the CX noise reduction on? Leaving it off can often make things sound a little different. Some later Pioneer models are guilty of having lower analog output to make the digital sound "better".

Forum Moderator

Where were you in '77?

Author
Time
 (Edited)
Post link

Choose either FLAC or WavPack format. You don't need both.

esb_flac.zip .OR. esb_wv.zip

Once again these samples are from 1425-84
The WAV file's left channel contains the LD's analog soundtrack, folded to mono
The WAV's right channel contains LD's digital track folded to mono

I believe they're different mixes.  Please listen and tell us what you think.

If it sounds like faulty CX decoding, then I'll have to investigate further.  At first glance I don't see how to force CX manually, so I'm trusting that the auto flag is working properly.

 

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

I'd assume that since the "digital sound" was added for the 1992 pressing, that it's the 1985 mix, while the analog (assuming it's the same analog mix from the 1985 pressing) track is the theatrical 1980 mix.

I'm downloading your sample right now, but since I don't actually know the difference between the 80/85 mixes of Empire, I probably wouldn't be able to pick out which was which.

Author
Time
Post link

Don't worry about which is which.  Do they sound different ?
The closing credits music sounds quite similar to my ears, with the digital being just a little hotter as SilverWook suggested it might.
Dialog levels, effects, and even music during the movie seem quite different.
Not different dialog or different effects, but mixed at different relative levels.

 

(assuming it's the same analog mix from the 1985 pressing)

Good point.  There's one way to find out . . . I'll have to record the earlier pressing.
I suppose then we'd also have to compare this digital mix with some other contemporary release such as JSC or SWE.

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

Yeah, they're definitely different mixes, at least as far as I can tell.  The changes don't seem to be as radical as the ANH mix differences, but like you said, it's been mixed at different relative levels.

It seems logical, then, that the analog is the 1980 mix, and the digital is the 1985 remix.

Author
Time
Post link

Slightly off topic, but it's my topic so I guess I'm allowed to do that =P

I remember a while back that someone (Neil?) made a fixed version of the 2004 DVD 5.1 audio for ANH.  Does anyone still have this?  I'm trying to make a "complete" preservation set, with literally everything in it that I can find (part of the reason I started this thread, as well), and I'd like to replace the audio on ANH's 2004 DVD with a fixed version.

Author
Time
Post link

This has been noted in a few other threads, but I think it kinda belongs here also.

Recently in a.b.sw...

Audio for GOUT projects (NTSC)
Star Wars - 1977 restored mono mix (lossless)
Star Wars - 1977 35mm Dolby Stereo Mix (reference level) (lossless)
SW, ESB, ROTJ - Belbucus' '93 LaserDisc PCM rips synced to GOUT (lossless)
SW, ESB, ROTJ - 1993 5.1 upmix (ac3&dts) - from the 93 laserdisc PCM's, edited by hairy_hen & with his custom LFE

In all about 11GB worth.

The Monkey King - Uproar In heaven (1965) Restoration/Preservation Project

Nezha Conquers the Dragon King (1979) BBC 1.66:1 & Theatrical 2.35:1 preservations

Author
Time
Post link
ChainsawAsh said:

I remember a while back that someone (Neil?) made a fixed version of the 2004 DVD 5.1 audio for ANH.

Neil didn't make it himself, but he was the one who first posted about the existence of this fixed audio track. I don't know how widespread it is (I don't have it).

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
Post link

I seem to recall reading about that version a few years ago, but I haven't seen him around these boards in a while.  I'm pretty sure that the 'fixed' 5.1 audio he mentioned wasn't actually the dvd mix at all, as Neil always maintained (and I agree) that the 2004 audio for ANH was beyond salvage.  His version used the dvd video combined with the 5.1 audio from 1997 laserdiscs, if I remember rightly.

The 97 mix sounds so much better than the 04 it's not even funny.  No idea why they changed it so much.  I've never owned a laserdisc player; the only 97 version I have is stereo vhs, but I'd love to have the 5.1 version.  Hardly anyone actually seems to have it, though.

Author
Time
Post link

Hey Ash, you seen this thread ?
It drifted off-topic and right up your alley.

JayArgonaut said:

Regarding ROTJ, from what I've seen on my W/S THX 1995 PAL VHS release, during the Death Star battle, just before Han deceives the Imperial forces into opening the rear base doors, Lando says: "Now. C'mon Han old buddy, don't let me down".

According on imdb and here virtually all the other pre-SE home versions have the same line. However, the JPN and 1990 U.S LD contain the full scene (present in all versions from 97' onwards) of Lando adjusting a few controls and commenting: "We're sure in the middle of it now...", after which he then says "C'mon Han old buddy, don't let me down". I don't have access to the 1993 DC or Faces sets to check them (perhaps others who do, can?), but if I'm correct, the JPN and 1990 U.S releases would be the most complete OOT version of ROTJ available.

I recently bought 1478-80, the first domestic ROTJ LD. It's the first pressing by Pioneer in Carson, CA not the later reissue by Mitsubishi.
Here are my recordings of it, both analog and digital, as well as my domestic DC digital only. (DC is the first version, missing the Leia welding bit.)
FLAC are the digital sources; WAV is the analog track.

Equipment chain was LD-V8000 --> M-Audiophile 2496 PCI card.
Like many pro-sumer cards that one has no input level controls, so DC is overdriven to clipping. Belbucus' is the definitive source anyway.

My SC finally arrived from Japan after being lost nearly two months (avoid Celga like plague, Grrr) but I've not unpacked it yet.  Might record it later.

I think it's safe to conclude ROTJ was remixed in '93.
Still don't know if the earlier one(s) are theatrical tho

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

Darth Mallwalker said:

Last night I watched sides 2 & 5 of the 1425-84 reissue from 1992, and compared the analog & digital tracks. No doubt about it, the analog track (presumably 1980 theatrical) seems more dynamic to these ears than the digital, which I'll presume to be a remix.
So far I haven't discovered any elemental differences, alternate dialog takes or the like, but I'm 98% certain they're two different mixes.

 


Compared to when I wrote that in June, today I'm leaning the other direction.
Got a hunch the PCM track on the '92 reissue is exactly the same as the analog track: CX-encoded.  They sound different because the player is [correctly] not trying to decode the PCM.  (Digital soundtracks aren't supposed to be CX in the first place.)
Whoever made the new glass master in '92 took a lazy shortcut methinks.
Would explain why the PCM sounds much less dynamic.

Anybody heard of a software CX-decoder ?

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

Ah!  That seems to prove that Jedi absolutely was remixed in 1993!  It seemed to me from my research that if any of the laserdiscs had the 1983 theatrical audio, it would have been the 1478-80 that you captured there, so I'm going to go ahead and assume that that's the 1983 audio.  Do you have a complete FLAC/WAV of the 1478-80 audio track that you can upload?

So the only questions remaining are:

- Was Jedi remixed in 1985, or just in 1993?  (The 1478-85 may possibly have a remix of Jedi, but it's more likely that it's the same as the 1478-80, which would indicate that Jedi was only remixed in 1993.)
- Was Empire remixed in 1985, or just 1993?  (The 1993 mix is missing a sound effect, but I don't think anyone's been able to confirm whether the 1985 version is the same mix as the 1980 one or not.)
- Has/can anyone capture the 1980 mix of Empire and the 1983 mix of Jedi?

I also have started to try and sync the 1985 Star Wars mix to the GOUT, but it's much more of a pain in the ass than I'd realized.  So if anyone has this already synced to the GOUT, if you could point me in the right direction that'd be great.

Once I have all the audio mixes, I plan on making my own "ultimate" set with all the audio mixes (possibly even the 5.1 upmixes, as well) using Dark_Jedi's cleaned-up GOUT as a base.

Author
Time
Post link

Well, this thread died back in October, but with Hairy_Hen's recreation of the 1977 Star Wars Dolby 6-Track 70mm mix, I felt it might be good to bring this up again.

So, here's what is, for certain, available now:

Star Wars
1977
- 1.0 Mono (Reconstructed Original Audio Available)
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Available from Laserdisc)
- 5.1 Recreation of 4.2 Six-Track (Reconstruction attempt from 1993 and 1977 Stereo Mixes; Original not available)
1985
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Available from Laserdisc)
1993
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Widely Available from GOUT/Laserdisc)
- 5.1 Upmix (Upmix of original 2.0; fairly widely available)

Empire
1993
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Widely Available from GOUT/Laserdisc)
- 5.1 Upmix (Upmix of original 2.0; fairly widely available)

Jedi
1993
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Widely Available from GOUT/Laserdisc)
- 5.1 Upmix (Upmix of original 2.0; fairly widely available)

 

 

Now, here's what is NOT widely available, or may not have been captured at all:

Empire
1980
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Available on Laserdisc 1425-84)
- 4.2 Dolby Six-Track (Not available anywhere)
1985
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Available on Laserdisc 1425-85)

Jedi
1983
- 2.0 Stereo (Original Audio Available on Laserdisc 1478-80)
- 4.2 Dolby Six-Track (Not available anywhere)
1985 (?)
- 2.0 Stereo (May Not Exist; if it does, it's on Laserdisc 1478-85)

 

So, if anyone has access to the above laserdiscs and has the ability to capture the audio and sync it to the GOUT - we would finally be able to have every audio mix readily available, minus (of course) the 70mm 6-track mixes.

It would also be wonderful if all these audio tracks could be uploaded in one place, so you don't have to go hunting to find which track you're looking for.

Author
Time
Post link

ChainsawAsh, that's a great nugget of info. Thanks for pulling it all together!

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

Author
Time
Post link

Hey everyone,

I'm kind of a newbie here, so I'm still getting my bearings. Are the 1977 Theatrical Stereo and 1985 Stereo mixes for ANH still up anywhere?

Ditto for ESB and ROTJ Theatrical Stereo, I guess, but I'm more concerned with ANH at the moment.

Thanks!

 

Author
Time
Post link

Hmmm, hello Helicore4, I'm not sure if the mixes you asked for are up anywhere still, but I can try to re-up the theatrical audio mixes, as Harmy's Despecialized Editions had them.

I've never seen this thread before. Did anyone ever decide to capture the 1985 mix of ESB? Was the only difference to this changed levels?

Author
Time
Post link

Helicore4 said:


Hey everyone,

I'm kind of a newbie here, so I'm still getting my bearings. Are the 1977 Theatrical Stereo and 1985 Stereo mixes for ANH still up anywhere?

Ditto for ESB and ROTJ Theatrical Stereo, I guess, but I'm more concerned with ANH at the moment.

Thanks!


Welcome newbie!

Belbucus' Dolby Stereo is on usenet since eight-hundred-some-odd days...
Try "audio for GOUT projects" in your favorite alt.binaries search engine.

As sort of an adjunct to msycamore's project, I've ripped the '85 mix from my own Technidisc pressing.
That one is not "audio for GOUT projects" yet, in the sense that it isn't pre-finished.
It's quite raw in fact, just bit-perfect 44.1kHz rips (not captures) from the LD.
As msycamore demonstrated, GOUT-sync should be a cake-walk.
There would be only three splice points (two side changes and insert silence at the 2nd reel change.)
Heck, even I could do that I think . . . the trick is finding a really good dither algorithm to do the rate conversion.

I guess it's the most complete '85 mix, but that doesn't necessarily mean it sounds best.
Still got four more pressings to compare against....

hairy_hen once said IF he ever revisited, he might begin there.
And Helicore4 if you're still around, well there it is
on usenet "1130-85 Technidisc"

However, in practice you must take into account the “fuckwit factor”. Just talk to Darth Mallwalker…
-Moth3r

Author
Time
Post link

Nice, thank you for doing this Mallwalker! :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
Post link

Thanks Mallwalker; I was going to ask if the lossless mixes were still available.

Does anyone know how/where to find rips of the original stereo mixes for ESB and ROTJ (from the CAV discs) in the best existing quality?  Harmy and DJ's projects have them at different bitrates, leading me to believe that there is a lossless master of each somewhere.  Would this be correct?