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Info: The LID Project: Laserdisc is dead. — Page 5

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If they're going to dumb down the mix, would it make more sense for them to have a plain 2.0 mix as the default track (for idiots and people without 5.1 setups) and have a really good 5.1 mix as selectable?

Never mind, I answered my own question. Yeah it would make sense... that's why they don't do it.

Dr. M

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Originally posted by: Doctor M
If they're going to dumb down the mix, would it make more sense for them to have a plain 2.0 mix as the default track (for idiots and people without 5.1 setups) and have a really good 5.1 mix as selectable?

Never mind, I answered my own question. Yeah it would make sense... that's why they don't do it.


I'm guessing that they set these things up for the lowest common denominator. The idiot who knows nothing about sound systems whatsover, but thinks that 5.1 must be the best, even though they have a 2.0 system or mono. So they'll go in and change the sound output to 5.1 anyway, then return the disc, complaining its messed up. So a few foolish people ruin it for everyone else. Back in the laserdisc days, if you had a laserdisc, and a 5.1 system, odds are you knew what you were doing, so no need to remix the sound system.
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Originally posted by: digitalfreaknyc

Again, do tell. How exactly is this possible?


I think all the clues are already in this thread - you connect the RF out of the Laserdisc player to a decoder/demodulator, then connect the SPDIF out of that to the SPDIF in on your soundcard (some Laserdisc players have SPDIF out, which simplifies things). I used a USB SPDIF in/out box so there was no mixing, and I got a bit-perfect digital rip of the AC3 audio stored on the Laserdisc. It sometimes took a couple of goes when the soundcard skipped a beat in the middle of a recording, but otherwise all I had to do was strip out the padding between AC3 frames.

DE
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Originally posted by: Darth Editous
Originally posted by: digitalfreaknyc

Again, do tell. How exactly is this possible?


I think all the clues are already in this thread - you connect the RF out of the Laserdisc player to a decoder/demodulator, then connect the SPDIF out of that to the SPDIF in on your soundcard (some Laserdisc players have SPDIF out, which simplifies things). I used a USB SPDIF in/out box so there was no mixing, and I got a bit-perfect digital rip of the AC3 audio stored on the Laserdisc. It sometimes took a couple of goes when the soundcard skipped a beat in the middle of a recording, but otherwise all I had to do was strip out the padding between AC3 frames.

DE

What programme did you use to record/capture, what settings did you use and in what format did you store the audio? What programme did you use to go from 44 to 48.0 kHz?

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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
What programme did you use to record/capture, what settings did you use and in what format did you store the audio? What programme did you use to go from 44 to 48.0 kHz?


I forget which program I used, but I just selected my USB audio device and hit record (you could probably do it with Sound Recorder if you're a masochist). The audio was saved as a RAW file. I then used HeadAC3he to decode the audio (to PCM WAV - though for archival purposes I would now use FLAC), but these days I would use one of the AC3 plugins for AviSynth. I don't remember having to go from 44.1kHz to 48kHz, but any audio program can do that once you've decoded the channels.

I forget the tricky part - you have to remove the padding that gets inserted into the stream when it comes over SPDIF. I wrote a program to do that, which also checked that there was nothing missing from the stream.

DE
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"Again, do tell. How exactly is this possible?"

I know I've not been on these boards a lot for a while, but I know many people have explained how they captured the AC3 streams from the laserdiscs. I've captured the digital PCM track from the SW LDs using the digital optical inputs on my motherboard.

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<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
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There is probably some discussion about it in the thread for the ill-fated 'Frighteners: Directors' Cut' LD transfer project. I remember sample ac3 files being posted.

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There weren't any AC3 files posted, but Karyudo did rip the original track bit-for-bit, from what I understood.

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Originally posted by: Darth Editous
I think all the clues are already in this thread - you connect the RF out of the Laserdisc player to a decoder/demodulator, then connect the SPDIF out of that to the SPDIF in on your soundcard (some Laserdisc players have SPDIF out, which simplifies things). I used a USB SPDIF in/out box so there was no mixing, and I got a bit-perfect digital rip of the AC3 audio stored on the Laserdisc. It sometimes took a couple of goes when the soundcard skipped a beat in the middle of a recording, but otherwise all I had to do was strip out the padding between AC3 frames.

DE


There are no laserdisc players that can play AC3 out via S/PDIF. Only the digital audio (PCM) tracks are available via S/PDIF from the player. For AC3, you must use a demodulator, because the signal from the player is (analog?) RF. The demodulated AC3 signal can then be captured via S/PDIF, but it still needs the stripping, as mentioned.

I first captured the AC3 from the 1997 SE in about 2002. I can't believe it's this long later, and I still haven't really done anything with it!

And yeah, I did the capture for 'The Frighteners'.

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1997 is 5.1 ac3?

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Originally posted by: Arnie.d
Originally posted by: Laserman
So they decided to redo the 5.1 mix for a lot of DVD titles so that it would still sound OK if played back in Stereo or mono. This of course makes the 5.1 mix somewhat "crappier" (technical term).
So the DVD mix can sound thin and flat compared to the laserdisc version of the same movie if they have dumbed down the 5.1 for DVD, but on titles where they used the same mix as for the laserdisc, it sounds identical on both formats.

Some (quite a few actually) DVD movies have a 2.0 and a 5.1 mix. In that case can we expect the 5.1 mix to be better than when there is only a 5.1 mix?


No in many cases even though there is a 2.0 mix, they still made a 'compromised' 5.1 mix.

Hopefully it isn't happening anymore, but as there aren't new laserdiscs to compare the mix to, who would know?



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The original idea of a better quality restored release from the '04 DVDs wasn't bad. (As the screenshots prove).

It's just that OCP never intended to do it, he was just looking to stir up trouble.

Dr. M

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Isn't that what CE is?

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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"For AC3, you must use a demodulator, because the signal from the player is (analog?)"

It's a digital signal embedded in an analog carrier. FM modulation is added so that it can be stored on the laserdisc. Thus, it must be demodulated for playback.

The modulators people by to connect a DVD player to a TV that only has a RF input do the opposite. It adds FM modulation (usually for channel 3 or 4) to the composite or S-Video signal so that the television can receive it.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: Molly
1997 is 5.1 ac3?


Yes.
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Originally posted by: Karyudo
I first captured the AC3 from the 1997 SE in about 2002. I can't believe it's this long later, and I still haven't really done anything with it!
Did you have anything planned for it? It might contain useful material for a 70mm mix re-creation (you and Molly should talk, if you haven't already ).

Do you have the japanese laserdisc of TPM? Apparently the 5.1 mix on that disc is more powerful and has better dynamics than the mix that was on the DVD (you could speculate that it was the true theatrical mix, downsampled to 384kbps, rather than the "remixed for the home" effort that was used on the DVD). Therefore, the optimum TPM fan-authored DVD - for those so inclined - would contain HD2DVD downconverted video (because the original video on the NTSC DVDs suffered horrendous edge-enhancement) combined with the AC-3 track sourced from the laserdisc. Just an idea...

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Originally posted by: Moth3r
Originally posted by: Karyudo
I first captured the AC3 from the 1997 SE in about 2002. I can't believe it's this long later, and I still haven't really done anything with it!
Did you have anything planned for it? It might contain useful material for a 70mm mix re-creation (you and Molly should talk, if you haven't already ).

Do you have the japanese laserdisc of TPM? Apparently the 5.1 mix on that disc is more powerful and has better dynamics than the mix that was on the DVD (you could speculate that it was the true theatrical mix, downsampled to 384kbps, rather than the "remixed for the home" effort that was used on the DVD). Therefore, the optimum TPM fan-authored DVD - for those so inclined - would contain HD2DVD downconverted video (because the original video on the NTSC DVDs suffered horrendous edge-enhancement) combined with the AC-3 track sourced from the laserdisc. Just an idea...


GREAT idea.
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Man, that would be a bitch to sync up, just by virtue of the different video cuts (a given, considering it's LFL).

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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I suppose if somebody put together that type of disc that they could make it the theatrical edit. That way we'd actually be able to talk about here on the boards? Plus, that guy who recently did an isolated score for Episode I (can't remember his name) could reedit the track as needed and supply that for the disc. It would be pretty cool, no?

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

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Originally posted by: klokwerk
I suppose if somebody put together that type of disc that they could make it the theatrical edit. That way we'd actually be able to talk about here on the boards? Plus, that guy who recently did an isolated score for Episode I (can't remember his name) could reedit the track as needed and supply that for the disc. It would be pretty cool, no?


Unless I'm mistaken, the laserdisc is already the theatrical edit of Star Wars Episode I. But a theatrical episode I with laserdisc-sourced DD 5.1 and isolated score would be great!
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Originally posted by: klokwerk
I suppose if somebody put together that type of disc that they could make it the theatrical edit. That way we'd actually be able to talk about here on the boards? Plus, that guy who recently did an isolated score for Episode I (can't remember his name) could reedit the track as needed and supply that for the disc. It would be pretty cool, no?


I think that would be Goodmusician. And wouldn't this be the same thing as the 2 CD set of the Ultimate TPM soundtrack that was released a few years ago?

And Klokwerk, I see you have a thousand posts. Congrats on the promotion!
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What GoodMusician is doing is re-editing the film to fit the original cues based on scripts, notes, etc. Which could be released as a DVD itself. Just the film re-edited to fit the original score with that as the sole track. In the bits of silence there could be text or audio commentary from John Williams or even GoodMusician describing all the edits he made. Would be interesting to see this way. I took a look at his "Battle for Naboo" reconstruction and thought it was quite interesting.

But anyway, yeah, the guy who did the isolated score I'm talking about... he re-edited the official DVD into the theatrical cut and then edited together an isolated score that matches the film as it is now with all the tracked music and choppy edits that are present in the music thanks to Lucas. I have that as either a WAV or a FLAC file. I seem to recall he put a DVD-R of the film with his isolated score on Demonoid at some point though. Anyway, yeah an isolated score that matches the film edit of the music would basically be the Ultimate Edition soundtrack set to the film... almost. There are some changes that would have to have been made. Wish I could remember this guy's name...

Anyway, if this isolated score was slightly re-edited to fit the laserdisc transfer of the film (which the HD footage would be edited to match) then it could be included as an alternate audio track. The majority of the editing has been done - it would just be some tidy-up so that it syncs with the LD version (I say LD and not HD because the HD would be the DVD cut I think) and that way the LD's 5.1 and the isolated score could be on the one disc. Perhaps with some subtitle tracks that recreate the DVD-ROM weblink in-depth commentary and script-to-screen features (can never get em to work with the PAL discs due to the speedup ).

Finally, Sluggo, thank you for the congrats. I hadn't even realized. Guess I should try and think up something special to do/say for my 1138th post.

Edit: Looks like I've babbled on for a bit trying to describe the situation with the isolated score. Hope you can make sense of it.

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com

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Klokwerk, I think you are referring to the ISOMIX dvds that Rikter upped to myspleen
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Nope, not ISOMIX. That's the original trilogy.

I mean, there was a member here on the boards that in mid-late 2006 provided a 575MB FLAC file which is essentially the audio track to create an ISOMIX style Episode I. I'm just scratching my head trying to find out who he was... damn this forum's search function sucks.

To contact me outside the forum, for trades and such my email address is my OT.com username @gmail.com