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Info: More ANH soundmix discussion (remasters & French dub)

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Just to recap on the list of English mixes for the original ANH:
1. Original Theatrical 70mm 6-track mix
2. Original Theatrical 35mm Dolby Stereo
3. Original Theatrical mono mix
4. 1985 digitally remastered mix
5. 1993 THX-certified digitally remastered mix

Anyone like to comment on the following assertions:

  • The 1985 digitally remastered mix was based on the Dolby Stereo mix. (Tractor beam line from the mono mix added, what other changes were made?)
  • The 1993 mix was supposedly a combination of the best elements of the original 3 mixes, but many think it was mostly based on a downmix of the 6-track version.

Some observations from listening to parts of the French dub on the 1995 laserdiscs:

  • Pitch correction has been applied (as in the UK VHS release).
  • Threepio’s “scream” is missing where the sandpeople attack Luke in the canyon.
  • Darth Vader sounds like a wuss in French.
  • The sound of the meteors shooting past the Falcon when it comes out of hyperspace is missing. This would suggest that this French soundtrack is based on the Dolby mix and not the 6-track mix like the equivalent English version.

Did the older French laserdiscs (or VHS) have a soundtrack with the 4% PAL pitch increase?
Have there been any changes to the French sound mix over the years?
How true is this statement (from LDDb.com):
"The sound of this LD is Stereo and not Dolby Surround because the original 1977 French mix for the movie was only a two-track Stereo mix, due to limitations of French theaters at the time.

It is also the case of the 1995 THX CAV French LD [113039]."

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I hope that you have more luck than I had when I tried starting a similar discussion.

Star Wars

(1) 1977 35mm two-track Dolby Stereo (as available up to 1985 CAV LaserDisc - captured)
(2) 1977 70mm Six-Track Dolby Stereo (never available but re-created by the EditDroid team)
(3) 1977 35mm mono. (available from UK ITV VHS tape or 1977 bootleg tape - captured)
(4) 1985 two-track Dolby Stereo (as available on 1987 Special Collection and 1992 Pan/Scan LaserDisc - captured)
(5) 1993 two-track Dolby Stereo (as available on Definitive Collection onwards - captured)


The fly in the ointment is the 1987/88/89 UK VHS Fullscreen tapes that you would expect to have the 1985 digitally remastered mix with the tractor beam line from the mono mix added. That line is missing so I am unsure what the mix on these releases is.

I cannot comment further at the moment and have no knowledge of the French audio.

4 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 2

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I'd take the info about the French mix with a grain of salt. Dolby surround has always been compatible with two channel stereo. The earliest "stereo" VHS movies and Laserdiscs have the surround info in the mix, years before surround sound was available for home use. Early home theater fanatics discovered how to use old quadraphonic stereo amps to decode them.

Where were you in '77?

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I'll take advantage of Christmas time to try to get more info about the French track. If I find something interesting, I'll write it in this thread.
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Originally posted by: SilverWook
I'd take the info about the French mix with a grain of salt. Dolby surround has always been compatible with two channel stereo. The earliest "stereo" VHS movies and Laserdiscs have the surround info in the mix, years before surround sound was available for home use.
Yes, I think I had this discussion before with Neil S Bulk and he said basically the same thing. "Stereo" is actually synonymous to "surround" in most of the film industry, so I can't imagine it would be any different in France. It would be an interesting test to run both the English and French sound mixes through one of the Doom9 upmixing procedures, and compare the resulting surround channels to see if there's a difference.

Another question, Dolby Stereo was designed to be compatible with mono cinemas, so why was a mono mix done for Star Wars?

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A lengthy explanation of why they did a mono mix can be read here.

Where were you in '77?

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Originally posted by: SilverWook
A lengthy explanation of why they did a mono mix can be read here.
... which I have read several times before and even linked to in previous posts. D'oh!

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Star Wars

(1) 1977 35mm two-track Dolby Stereo (as available up to 1985 CAV LaserDisc - captured)
(2) 1977 70mm Six-Track Dolby Stereo (never available but re-created by the EditDroid team)
(3) 1977 35mm mono. (available from UK ITV VHS tape or 1977 bootleg tape - captured)
(4) 1985 two-track Dolby Stereo (as available on 1987 Special Collection and 1992 Pan/Scan LaserDisc - captured)
(5) 1993 two-track Dolby Stereo (as available on Definitive Collection onwards - captured)


Does anyone know how/when the six track mix was recreated?
"I.... I don't believe it!"
"That is why you fail."
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The original official 6 track mix is covered in detail here. In short, it was the soundtrack to the 70mm film version of Star Wars.

The EditDroid version of this is mentioned on January 25th 2005 in this thread.

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Originally posted by: MasterYoda510
Does anyone know how/when the six track mix was recreated?
The mix hasn't been recreated. The EditDroid team used the 1993 THX mix (from the Definitive Collection laserdiscs) as they believed it to be a downmix of the 1977 70mm 6-track audio, and labelled it as such.

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Originally posted by: Moth3r
Anyone like to comment on the following assertions:
- The 1985 digitally remastered mix was based on the Dolby Stereo mix. (Tractor beam line from the mono mix added, what other changes were made?) I don't believe that any other changes were made. At least I haven't found any. Other than the addition of C-3PO's tractor beam line and some additional stereo effects, it's the same mix.
Originally posted by: Moth3r
- The 1993 mix was supposedly a combination of the best elements of the original 3 mixes, but many think it was mostly based on a downmix of the 6-track version.
The production notes on the Definitive Collection state that the 1993 THX sound mix is a new mix combining the best elements of the original three. I can't see any reason why they would just make that up, so I'm inclined to think it's the truth and that this mix is not the original 6-track mix as theorized. But how much of the 6-track mix was actually used is anyone's guess. However, if the THX mix was supposed to combine the "best elements" I have to wonder why it does not include "Close the blast doors," or more importantly, C-3PO's tractor beam line, especially since Burtt specifically added it to the previous home video mix.

Originally posted by: russs15

The fly in the ointment is the 1987/88/89 UK VHS Fullscreen tapes that you would expect to have the 1985 digitally remastered mix with the tractor beam line from the mono mix added. That line is missing so I am unsure what the mix on these releases is.
I am only familiar with US releases, but it sounds to me like they just continued to release the original transfer instead of the updated one. Are these releases the same as the ones that preceded them?
Greedo shoots first? Not in my DVD player.
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Originally posted by: russs15

The fly in the ointment is the 1987/88/89 UK VHS Fullscreen tapes that you would expect to have the 1985 digitally remastered mix with the tractor beam line from the mono mix added. That line is missing so I am unsure what the mix on these releases is. I am only familiar with US releases, but it sounds to me like they just continued to release the original transfer instead of the updated one. Are these releases the same as the ones that preceded them?


I too suspect that the old version was simply re-released despite the "new" version with the Digital Sound. I have yet to get my hands on any tape older than 1987 so I cannot comment.

One hope is a project in the pipeline of the 1982 UK PAL Star Wars LaserDisc which I cannot wait to split-screen test alongside the later versions.

4 - 5 - 3 - 1 - 6 - 2

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The EditDroid DVD did not use the 1993 mix. Just listen to it. Note that it has the tractor beam line! Therefore, it's safe to say that the EditDroid disc uses the 1985 mix, since that is the only home video release (prior to the SE) to have that line. I recall a thread here where I pointed this out to the creator of that disc and he admitted he didn't realize that the audio he used wasn't the original track, though it is the track closest to the original.

If anyone wants the original 1977 Dolby Stereo mix, I have an Apple Lossless file of it, taken from the 1983 CAV pan-and-scan LD.

Neil

Well at least the reversed surround channels have been addressed.

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Originally posted by: SilverWook
I'd take the info about the French mix with a grain of salt. Dolby surround has always been compatible with two channel stereo. The earliest "stereo" VHS movies and Laserdiscs have the surround info in the mix, years before surround sound was available for home use. Early home theater fanatics discovered how to use old quadraphonic stereo amps to decode them.


Jeez, didn't think I'd hear someone else mention quad decoders on these forums
I still use the largest Sansui amp as the core of my system and love it, I run everything through the quad synthesizer. Some quad fans still believe the Sansui decoders provide nicer results than the Dolby surround options on modern digital receivers.
Another interesting quality is it reveals overdubs in mixes a lot of the time, the most recent example I noticed was "Lapti Nek": the clavinet sounds all come from the rear channels. If you ever use the Sansui decoder to listen to a tv broadcast with dubbed-in dialogue (usually censorship) the dubs will shift to the rear channels, rather loudly.

One question I've been wondering re: the mono mixes, has anyone done a careful comparision between the 80's ITV broadcast and the "telecine" transfer (crawl w/o "a new hope") to determine if they are in fact identical?
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Originally posted by: Neil S. Bulk
I recall a thread here where I pointed this out to the creator of that disc and he admitted he didn't realize that the audio he used wasn't the original track, though it is the track closest to the original.
What are the notable differences between the original and the '85 remix?

And, if the '85 mix is closest to the original Dolby Stereo, how close is the '93 mix to the original 70mm 6-track mix?

Many people have said that the '93 mix is simply a downmix of the 6-track, although as stated above this contradicts what the DC production notes say.

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Another difference I have noticed is in all (that I am aware of) mixes of ANH, Ben says the line, "If the ship's as fast as he's boasting, we ought to do well". The Special Editions and the official DVD have an alternate take of "If the ship's as fast as his boasting, we ought to do well". Does anyone know if this line was in any previous mix?
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Is anyone who has the 1989 French laserdisc [113035] willing to lend it to me for a while? If so, send me a private message.

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Pretty sure 1130 35, released in 1994 (?), is exactly the same.
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Yes, same discs, different covers.

Any takers?

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"Jeez, didn't think I'd hear someone else mention quad decoders on these forums"

Would you believe he is still buying blank Beta cassettes?

(Would you believe Frye's still sells them!!! )

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<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

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