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Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 334

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I doubt if that 1980's picture was taken in the eighties and I could find similarly plastic and cartoonish images representing the seventies and nineties.

EMO culture was a distorted commercial evolution of Goth culture and the sort of expression of self conscious youth that Morrissey and his antecedents poolled their fan base from, those were eighties acts. Grunge was America catching up with UK style Punk after the UK had pinched it off the New York scene in the late seventies.

The sixties were all about peace and love which got a rude awakening with Sharon Tate, The Altamont Free Concert and Vietnam.

The seventies were about exposing truth, they were about disaffection and Star Wars was pretty much a backlash against that (a return to fantasy to escape all this exposé).

The eighties made this guy a hero.

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Bingowings said:

It is the "official" translation but it doesn't need to be.

You could put any subtitle you like over it ergo my suggestions.

It's pretty wide spread as official explanations go so adding a subtitle stating something different (which makes more sense) would send out the message that it might mean that in George's version but here it means something else.

That's what I thought he said, could have been helped by the Marvel comics

J

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Bingowings said:

That line from Bib Fortuna, "Bargain rather than fight? He's no Jedi." doesn't really make sense.

Surely the Jedi have a reputation for negotiating first and only fighting when necessary.

Keep in mind that this is before George decided to make the Jedis a bunch of pussies.

If you follow that the Jedi were essentially psychically enhanced galaxy cops who were modeled off of the cops who patrolled the streets in China (ala FIVE DEADLY VENOMS), then yes, it does make sense that Bibby would say Luke is "no Jedi" if the Jedi had a reputation of not so much rushing into a fight, but being direct and authoritarian, as well as being more than willing to use their psychic powers to unduly influence their suspects.

Remember: something had to have happened to have led to the Jedi's downfall... and yes, I am aware of the Prequels but no, I do not consider them a part of the OT canon.

         

 “You people must realize that the public owns you for life, and when you’re dead, you’ll all be in commercials dancing with vacuum cleaners.”

– Homer Simpson

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I can understand the line being inconsistent with what we learn about Jedi in the PT but it's (also) inconsistent with Yoda's training in ESB, it doesn't even feel right with Ben's more militant language in ANH.

It doesn't fit anywhere which is why I recommended the change.

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Bingowings said:

I can understand the line being inconsistent with what we learn about Jedi in the PT but it's (also) inconsistent with Yoda's training in ESB, it doesn't even feel right with Ben's more militant language in ANH.

It doesn't fit anywhere which is why I recommended the change.

This.  It just don't make no sense no how!

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Just a small thought, probably not going to be addressed anywhere.  When I was young, I thought two probe droids landed on Hoth, considering we see one hit the surface and get out, then see it again from Luke's perspective a minute later.  I think it could have easily been reordered slightly, still carried the same emotional impact, show almost all of the existing shots, and only shown a single landing:

Star destroyer launches probes.  One goes towards Hoth.  We pan over the plains of Hoth, see tauntaun, see Luke, who looks around.  We see the probe enter the atmosphere and begin falling, but not strike the ground.  Luke looks off, sees it hit the ground, looks through his binoculars, etc.  After being mauled by the wampa and being dragged off, we see the probe droid emerge from the wreckage and head off, then Han arrives at Echo Base.

This more closely matches the description in the book, which is a bonus.

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This has been suggested before.

Davnes did a video mock up.

I think it works but only if you keep everything from the impact the same but cut to the droid instead of Han after the Wampa strikes.

This does mess up the music cues but the whole scene needs a re-score anyway if this approach is taken.

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Not really a wish but a suggestion which might allow for a larger range of restructuring.

Some of Palpatine's scenes in ROTJ could be him as a hologram.

That way his scenes could be shown earlier than his arrival at the Death Star in a different scale (like ESB) or in another room (allowing for the Throne room to be be a dramatic reveal which we see when Luke does).

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Ah thats interesting. Hologram like in ESB (giant head), or something more like in the PT?

Yeah I like the idea of saving him for the throne room. It would make it seem like not even Vader is allowed up there except for very specific occasions.

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       Why the pit in the Throne Room?

       Maybe a glow could rise from the shaft every time the laser is fired and the Emp could be shown relishing the power?

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Maybe he enjoys all those positive ions making everyone cranky.

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In the Clone Wars they seemed to have made the Probe Droids on that a lot more smaller and mobile not to mention the SE droids flying around Mos Eisley being smaller too.  I wonder if tying the Saga together, should those Probe Droids in Empire be shrunk down as well?  Mind you it would be quite a challenge for Han to shoot the thing if it's smaller and quicker though. 

As for a grand reveal of Palpatine in his throne room with prior holographic transmissions, I'm all for it! :-) 

“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”

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FVDnz said:

In the Clone Wars they seemed to have made the Probe Droids on that a lot more smaller and mobile not to mention the SE droids flying around Mos Eisley being smaller too.  I wonder if tying the Saga together, should those Probe Droids in Empire be shrunk down as well?  Mind you it would be quite a challenge for Han to shoot the thing if it's smaller and quicker though. 

In defense of the large probe droid: That thing can transmit images all the way back to the Fleet, or at least to a Star Destroyer somewhere near by. It's powerful.

ROTJ Storyboard Reconstruction Project

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Ah fair point - good call! :-) 

“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”

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Long time readers of this thread will note my loathing of the plastic cluttered ROTJ briefing room with props thrown in just because they existed.

I rather like the ceiling and the podium in this version from the updated X-Wing Alliance game.

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I watched the beginning of ROTJ again today and it just doesn't work on so many levels.

The FX look like an animation of cutouts much of the time.

The whole thing looks like cosplay in a museum of props from the earlier films.

Vader doesn't look like Vader he doesn't walk like Vader (it's worse than the ROTS Vader)

Michael Pennington is a fine actor but he plays the scene completely wrong to the point where replacing him entirely seems to be the only solution.

He should be aware of what Vader is capable of but be confident of the Emperor's protection.

He should reveal to Vader that the Emperor is on his way in a vain attempt to catch him off guard.

His comedic quaking in his boots isn't fitting for someone in charge of such an important mission.

Other Imperials also look a bit too well fed and American Television film of the week.

When Angel posted these changes :

he could have gone one further and replaced the officer with someone gaunt and posh.

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Bingowings said:

Long time readers of this thread will note my loathing of the plastic cluttered ROTJ briefing room with props thrown in just because they existed.

I rather like the ceiling and the podium in this version from the updated X-Wing Alliance game.

 

Also hoping at the beginning of the briefing scene that we get to see an establishing shot of where the Rebel Fleet are in orbit around Sullust, and hopefully seeing the planet in the background too.  Would be awesome as well if we could see all the Rebel ships - A-Wings, B-Wings, Mon Cal ships the lot.  And I'm sure there doesn't need to be any music in there either.

“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”

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teharri said:

Originally posted by: adywan
Originally posted by: teharri
yeah I know. I just thought it would be cool if he had kept it on. You know he is in the middle of a battle. It does not seem right that he turns it off.

Well if you look frame by frame at the shot you will see that as luke jumps across luke actually has the the stunt saber with short blade that was used during filming so it would make sense that it was ignited. Something for me to think about for my edit i guess.

I don't think that Luke should have the sith eyes though. He never turned to the dark side so wouldn't have had them.


Yeah I have always noticed that he was using the stunt saber. I am glad that you check out this thread. I thought this would be a good place to generate ideas. About the Sith eyes. I thought it would be cool because he was full of so much anger when he was beating down on vader. Then when he realizes what he is becoming he takes that deep breath. I always imagined it would look cool for him to have those eyes because he was giving in to the dark side. It would be cool to see that and then see him realize what he is doing and have those eyes fade away as he took that breath. This is just an idea i have been toying with in my mind.

F*** yeah! Do the eyes. Luke should have red eyes as he's swing his saber to chop of Vader's hand and when the closeup of Luke looking at his own hand, his eyes return to their natural color. This shows just how close Luke was to turning to the dark side.

Creator of "The Death Star II Battle" Minecraft Map.

Star Wars Revisited TESB & ROTJ Ideas.

Creator of The Black Hole Revised (in progress)

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The Nerd said:

F*** yeah! Do the eyes. Luke should have red eyes as he's swing his saber to chop of Vader's hand and when the closeup of Luke looking at his own hand, his eyes return to their natural color. This shows just how close Luke was to turning to the dark side.

No-one has had a hard time figuring out what was going on in Luke's head in that scene.....all without the benefit of the cheapest PT gag we got.....Sith eyes.

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Just thinking of visual metaphors which could be explored in ROTJ.

One thing I really liked in ROTS was the repeated use of sunsets in the first half of the film, and the later use of night time to emphasise the fall of the republic.

Conversely in ROTJ, could there be a use of twilights and dawns to describe the opposite?

Which points could this be applied and where would it be feasable? There is potential for a sunrise during the sail barge assault, however this could be too early. Would the best point be just to end the film on a sun rise?

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There actually IS a spot in the film that needs a dawn......right before the ground battle on Endor......jumps way too quickly into the action.

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Yeah it does jump from night time to daylight pretty quickly.

I was wondering if there was space for an effective symbolic moment.

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(Concerning dawn on Endor) An excerpt from my overview of what could be/needs to be changed from ROTJ:

-The Endor strike team completely disappears from when Luke, Han, Chewie and the droids find Leia's discarded helmet until the morning of the attack on the bunker. Perhaps a few cutaway scenes to explain where they've been and what they're doing during the night (this is easy to do as it does not require any main characters and can be accomplished by shooting extras in Endor gear). Additionally this next part of the film is missing crucial types of shots/scenes that make up basic film mechanics and make for good story flow, so these additions wouldn't be just for the sake of adding something new, there's an actual structural reason for including them. My suggestions are as follows:
 
    a) The scene where Luke leaves the Ewok village to turn himself in to Vader is immediately followed by the scene where he is delivered into Vader's hands. Usually a film has whats called a cutaway shot, or scene, to allow for the passage of time in the viewer's mind, but in this instance it is lacking. A simple night scene of some rebels in a hideout or encampment, hunkered down, staying out of sight, perhaps as an AT-ST goes by in the distance. They could even be discussing how they've received a message from Han and co. about where to meet the next morning to attack the shield generator. (this does not have to be a full scene with multiple shots and dialogue if one does not want it to be, but can all be achieved in one shot of the rebels hiding from the Empire during the night...simply to allow for some time to pass so that it is generally believable that Luke has had the time to turn himself in)
  
    
b) Vader tells the AT-AT commander who delivers Luke to "continue his search", then has his conversation with Luke and then in the next scene Han and co. have joined back up with the other rebels and are already on the attack. The attack scene starts off WAY too suddenly. What is missing in the beginning of the "attack on the bunker" scene is a series of establishing shots. Sentries or scouts watching distant Empire movements, engineers setting up traps or mines (perhaps with the help of Ewoks), men gathering their equipment for the battle ahead or taking down their camp and just generally getting ready (or perhaps THIS is where you'd want to put a quick shot of someone running up to the rebel in charge to tell him that Han has made contact). All of this could be done in early morning hours....maybe with some mist....and THEN you have the opening shot of Chewie, Han and Leia peering over the fallen tree at the landing platform a little bit later in the morning.
  
    OR c) Both. (This section of the film not only does not have enough coverage on some of the background elements but is also rather badly edited in my opinion. When Han and co. are with the Ewoks its almost as if the story in progress just stops, and the Empire ceases to be a threat.....almost as if the Ewok village is a secret dimension or a place that the Empire cannot get to. Even when Vader tells his commander to "continue his search" you never see the consequences of that order. There is no feeling of urgency for them to get the shield down for the imminent attack. That sense of drama/suspense only comes back the next day when the attack starts. If there were a few cutaway shots of the Empire hunting through the forest for the rebels at night or some Ewoks avoiding Imperials in the dark woods it would add that ever so slight reminder that the Imperial forces are still out there looking for them) Using both these scenes adds some suspense back into the film at a point when all suspense virtually disappears, but it also has an interesting side effect, in that it increases the surprise when the Emperor's "best troops" show up at the bunker. If you show the Rebels interacting with the Imperials during the night, and then prepping for battle the following morning, you're building a sense of apprehension and/or suspense for the coming battle....and don't forget, at this point the Rebels think they're attacking the shield generator head on, so they think they have quite a fight in front of them, but then there's the relief of finding out that there's a back door, and probably a much smaller fight (that they can probably easily win). So we're torn from worry, to relief, and then back to worry when the Imperial troops show up after all. It adds more impact to a scene already in the film if you make a couple of small additions probably totaling no more than 10-15 seconds of screen time.

 

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^I think every single one of your points is straight on, and I'd love to see exactly that sort of thing implemented in ROTJ:R, except maybe a little more than 10-15 seconds.  But really, hardly any time at all is needed to express exactly what you suggest.  Excellent post!

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If the larger Rebel force converged with natives that were already giving the Empire a hard time (those booby traps just come from nowhere otherwise). Jedi will begin to make more sense.

Jerjerrod is obsessed with having more men....

I don't think man power would be used much in building the station (wouldn't they have machines for that?).

The opening meeting between him and Vader could be tinkered so that he needs more men to fight the things attacking the base protecting the station.

That creates interesting questions like what is strong enough and nasty enough to take out Imperial troops, the answer has to be short and furry because that's how Lucas' mind worked when he was good (the great warrior Yoda for example).