Info & Ideas: ESB and ROTJ Wishlist — Page 184

I'm not off work yet!  Darn you people on the other side of the world!

you mean guysssh your the besht, I donna care what otherssh a sayin.  Who need obsherve, man?  I'm all outta that.

dagobah right before r2 gets eaten by the lizard thing

video i did for fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMwS9Oup4Bk

Bingowings said:

skye1083 said:

Hi! I decided to stop lurking and join the discussion. I have read almost all of this thread (sad I know) and I would love to see some of these ideas become reality.

About the Ben/Luke conversation, someone suggested that it be cut altogether, and I think I have to agree. I don't mind Leia being a Skywalker - it's pretty much set in stone now, but it would be nice if Luke showed some of that famed Jedi insight and just knew that Leia was his sister.

So how about this: Luke training on Dagobah, Yoda dies, Luke being unsure, cut to Vader & DS, back to Luke preparing to leave, R2 beeps a message, show X-wings monitor with message from Leia or Threepio about the rescue, Luke heads to Tatooine. I think it would be easier to piece together.

 

Welcome to our wonderful world of head scratching.

Cutting the Ben's ghost bit is problematic in it's own right, we really need to see Luke confront Ben about the great fib, Luke doesn't really get a chance to lay into Yoda because by the time he asks him about it he's already dying.

The poor boy is pretty much manipulated by his masters, they aren't the white hats they pretend to be.

As for Luke figuring it out for himself without help, he sure picks his moments and it's such a wacky story shift that it needs someone else to explain it (for once exposition does come in handy).

To have Luke find out his mentors have lied to him, his dead father is a living murdering despot wannabe and to figure out for himself that the lovely lady he has been gleefully snogging for the last two episodes is his sister and not to have anyone to bitch about it to would be enough to pull even the most seasoned Jedi to the dark side.

Palpatine wouldn't need to do anything.

Seeing Fishmanlee's mockup (the music change doesn't really add much and I doubt if the sound could be successfully be rebuilt around the change) does point up that the ship positions need to be changed as the last ships just disappear they don't shoot off to the same vanishing point the earlier craft do.

I assume that they would all jump to the same spot if they are going to the same space (they certainly would just fade out like that).

But that is the point: the test isn't physical but mental.

Even with the Ben scene it isn't much of a confrontation (be it the script or the acting).  Having Luke being forced to deal with the revelation without being able to vent at Ben, and then having to face Vader and the Emperor completely alone without the aid of any supernatural force, would show Luke's move from a child to an adult.  In fact, if you look at A NEW HOPE, EMPIRE and JEDI, the pattern of Luke's development as a character is essentially: kid, teenager, adult.

In the first film, he is naive and energetic.  While he has a father figure who teaches him the basics (having a good work ethic, basic sense of morals, etc), he finds a grandfather figure who gives him a greater sense of purpose other than simply working for a living.  He loses his mentor but gains purpose and direction.  It is essentially a child's fantasy: his toys come alive, the bully becomes his best friend and he gets the girl while blowing up the bad guys, ending with him being rewarded for it for everyone to cheer.

In the second film, there is nothing to really cheer about.  Luke is in a leadership position, but not one of the generals but off to one side.  His leadership at best allows for escape instead of victory, and for the rest of the movie he is either ignoring the advice his mentors give him or he is arguing with it.  When he goes to Bespin, the excuse is to save his friends, but it is most likely so he can get revenge against Vader for killing Ben (regardless of Ben's spiritual state).  In the end, he is all but alone, loses the girl, barely escapes with his life and finds out that his mentor betrayed him (as most teens feel to some degree with their own parents)

In the third film, Luke has to bail out his friends in a fairly sloppy rescue attempt.  It isn't perfect (as it would be), but it works.  Vader is quieter and Luke is more vocal - compare Luke and Vader in EMPIRE to how they interact in JEDI with how a father would interact with a rebellious teenager to the same father and son 10 to 20 years later.  In the end, Luke is almost in the position of Vader at the end of the Bespin fight, where he fights with his words as well as his weapons.

Darth Venal said:

In 26 years I never heard a single complaint about the Dagobah scenes.

Dan Vebber said:

13. Obi Wan's Appearance to Luke

In case you missed the first two films, Obi-Wan Kenobi is supposed to be dead. In Wars and Empire, he made himself known to Luke through an occasional voice in the head or in a floating vision. In Jedi, all of Obi-Wan's street credibility as a wizened spiritual guide is thrown out the window when he appears on Dagobah and shuffles around like Fred G. Sanford in a coat of glow paint.

Rather than floating in one place, he fades in 20 feet away and walks up to Luke, eventually resting his non-corporeal butt on a rock. The ensuing two-way conversation scrambles to tie up too many loose ends at once, made worse by the fact that the character saying it all shouldn't even be there on such a literal level. And unlike his similarly flawed Dagobah appearance in Empire, Jedi never lets us see Obi-Wan fade back into oblivion once his message is delivered. For all we know, he and Luke could have spent hours hanging out and gossiping like housewives.


27. Yoda

In Empire, Yoda was a sagacious sprite who brought to mind Gælic legend. In Jedi, he's an annoying toad who sounds like Super Grover (thanks to Frank Oz's forgetting how to do the voice) and looks about as realistic as his Kenner action figure likeness (thanks to bad, overlit cinematography, see point #3).

Like the movie he's stuck in, Jedi's Yoda is lacking in wisdom and festering with cuteness. Get out your laserdiscs (okay, or your videotapes) and compare the two Yodas head-to-head. You'll be surprised.


39. Yoda's Death Sequence

Yoda says, "Soon will I rest. Yes, forever sleep." Less than four minutes later-Bam! He's a goner. And what does Luke do while his beloved master lays choking and gasping for his final breaths? Well, he just sort of sits there like a doofus and watches him writhe in pain. Not that dialing 911 is an option on Dagobah, but a simple "Hey, Master-you okay?" would have been a nice gesture.


41. Paradoxical Lessons in the Force

Yoda says the only way Luke can become a Jedi is to face Vader. Minutes later, he says it's unfortunate that Luke rushes to face Vader. This in addition to Yoda's assertion in Empire that if Luke faces Vader, he'll become an agent of evil. So he needs to face Vader to become a Jedi, but he can't face Vader or else he'll become a slave to the Dark Side. This is a paradox on par with the one Kirk used to confuse and blow up Nomad.


45. Generally Dumb Dialogue

[...]

Yoda, near death, to Luke: "Remember: A Jedi's strength flows from the Force." (That's more of a first-day lesson, isn't it, Yoda? Something tells us Luke had that particular bit of wisdom written on a Post-It-Note and stuck to his X-Wing cockpit long ago.)

50. The Sarlaac Pit as Freud's Vagina Dentate

Come on, like it never occurred to you.

Ric Olie said:

vaderios said:

We are all drunk here

(belch) I love all you guysss.  Your the best, I donna care what otherss a sayin.  Who need observe, man?  I'm all outta that.

Ric Olie has run out of observe? Isn't that one of the signs of the apocalypse? Next thing you know the X0 project is coming out...