logo Sign In

Info: DVNR smearing in GOUT not in the master...? Or is the 1995 release a different master altogether...? — Page 2

Author
Time
 (Edited)

The gout masters weren't sourced from the original negatives (the O-negs were in a pretty bad shape and were only restored for the SE), I'm sure others can back me up on this. The 1993 transfers were sourced from well worn IPs (inter positives - 1st generation copies of the O-neg used for making inter-negatives, which were used for making theatrical prints) and that's why the transfers were very dirty and the DVNR was applied so heavily.

Author
Time

Moth3r said:

The difference in smearing is not that huge. The 4-eyed stormtrooper may be better, but other scenes are just as bad as the NTSC version. I'll dig out my DVD.

Well, those pics from the PAL transfer of the landspeeder and Luke in Ben's hut seems also to be nearly unaffected by the smear, are the scenes with Artoo in the Canyon, the Cantina and when Luke gazes at the twin suns really as bad as the NTSC version?

Moth3r said:

I now have another player to test, and a few other ideas for improvement. I've learned a fair bit in the last 5 years... just wish I had more time to play with this stuff.

I'd love to see a second version from you, your first version looks quite good from just looking at those pics. I hope you find some time to attempt it someday.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

The GOUT was made from an interpositive that was printed in 1985. It looks incredibly grainy, and while the original negative looks grainier than the Lowry-treated 2004 master, only by a bit. If you take a look at other films from around the same time, such as the Directors Cut of Alien and the Theatrical Cut of Blade Runner from the 2003 and 2007 DVDs, those are both taken from interpositives, and have had little or no cleanup done. And they look fantastic. The only time you notice grain is on the optical dupes, which is the way it should be. The Alien IP was newly printed of course, I don't know about Blade Runner but the movie was unpopular and probably hardly got used, but by the grain structure it looks like an original IP to me. And thats the quality that Star Wars should look.

But the Star Wars IPs look really, really bad, especially the first few reels of Star Wars. An interpositive just shouldn't look that bad, especially since it was only run a couple times, since it was created in 1985 for home video.

I have three theories to explain this:

1) It was not derived from the original negatives. If, for instance, the IP was printed off of the existing Internegative, it would have the generational loss you would see in a theatrical print. Which is precisely what the GOUT transfer resembles, in terms of grain and damage. I find this a bit unlikely though, just because it makes no sense to do that.

2) The duplicate stock was very bad. In 1985, there was a batch of Kodak stocks that was excessively grainy, and it was replaced the next year with an improved version. Aliens was shot on this, which is why that films looks really grainy, and Cameron is currently de-graining it for the Blu Ray release because he says he was never happy with how grainy it was (I disapprove, but that's another case). Now, negative raw stock is totally different from duplicate stock. I don't know if Kodak's duplicate stocks that year were affected by the issue. The stock Aliens was shot on was a low-light special stock, and low light = graininess, so its no surprise that grain would be a problem. I have a feeling that the duplicate stocks would not be afflicted by this issue, but just throwing it out there that 1985 was a bad year for unusual grain for what it is worth. The duplicate stock of Star Wars might not be so bad as to have the problem of the Aliens stock, but it would definitely be grainier than an interpositive printed today because the granularity of all stocks in the 70s and 80s was poorer.

3) The negative was really dirty. Some of the grain is dirt on the negative (white specs), and the 1985 IP probably was never cleaned so by 1993 affter being run a half dozen times it had picked up some dirt.

The other factors may be that previous releases, being not from the master directly, do not show the grain because the transfers are softer. The noise reduction on them might also have been better.

I would say that possibly a combination of most of these factors is at fault. You can see in the Senator theatre photos, and also other sources such as the 70mm cells which are at least the same generation as an IP and probably one generation higher, that the films were never THAT grainy. The Senator example is a theatrical print, which has gone from negative to interpositive back to internegative and then the print itself, and yet it looks about 50% of the GOUT levels. It might look worse when you see it in motion, but only a bit. This print was back when the negative was in a better state, but it still passed through an IP and IN, and also the grain of the print itself. So, the problem is the specific 1985 IP. It must just be much grainier than the previous one.

Which would point to problem #2 as the main culprit. You can see negative dirt on the GOUT, but you can see some on the Technicolor print, so that can't be the problem either. There's print dirt and dust on the IP itself, but thats not what is making the image look like shit, it's just making the problem already there worse. The problem also seems to inexplicably get better as the film progresses, as the first two or three reels are really bad and then it gets better; I don't know how to explain that, maybe the negative of those reels was just much dirtier so the image just looks grainier.

I'm kind of rambling now, but the situation is a bit confusing.

Author
Time

zombie84 said: I'm kind of rambling now, but the situation is a bit confusing.

I usually find your ramblings rather informative. :-)

Author
Time

Is the source for GOUT - Empire and Jedi also an IP from 1985?

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

More examples of DVNR smear in the PAL LDs can be found here.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time
 (Edited)

No. These are the tapes I was talking about:

That's interesting, I've never seen the one you linked to. Moth3r?

 

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Harmy said:

That's interesting, I've never seen the one you linked to. Moth3r?

Russ is the expert on UK VHS releases. The tape in that eBay link is the second ever widescreen release (from 1994 - the first was in 1992) and is digitally remastered but not THX-certified.

It's either that one or the '92 release (or maybe both) that have some dodgy PAL conversion going on, so it runs at the correct speed without any PAL speedup (but with field-blended frames and so on).

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time

So was the level of DVNR applied manually on a scene by scene basis or was it done automatically? Seems weird the amount of DVNR differ so drastically between the video-masters. Also, have someone actually compared and confirmed that the transfers of the '93 DC and the '95 Faces releases are identical in terms of DVNR-artifacts?

THX NTSC (GOUT)

 

THX PAL

THX NTSC (GOUT)

THX PAL

How do these look on the PAL THX Laserdiscs:

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

zombie84 said:

But the Star Wars IPs look really, really bad, especially the first few reels of Star Wars. An interpositive just shouldn't look that bad, especially since it was only run a couple times, since it was created in 1985 for home video.

Zombie, were comes this information from that the IPs was first created in 1985? Just curious.

 

Some interesting info from THX Technical Supervisor Dave Schnuelle regarding the process of making the Definitive Collection Laserdiscs In the September 1993 issue of Widescreen Review:

"In this case, for all three films, we used interpositive elements that had been made directly from the camera negative. Other film transfers might be done from internegatives made from the interpositive, or from low-contrast prints, but we preferred the IP's for these transfers, because that's the earliest generation usable"

"One small difference from the original films is that in letterbox transfers we prefer to put any subtitles in the black border beneath the actual picture area. Thus we didn't use the same interpositive as the theatrical one, because that one contains subtitling already. In tracking down the elements, we found that the only ones in the vault were ones with subtitles- these clearly weren't the first generation off the camera neg because they had to have the subtitles burned in. So a massive search was undertaken and the first generation IP's were found in a special vault having only opticals in Los Angeles."

"A Mark IIIC with a 4:2:2 digital output [telecine] was used."

"[We used] a noise reduction and dirt concealment device made by Digital Vision, a company in Sweden. Their DVNR-1000 is a very powerful noise reducer for reducing film grain. Especially on the two earlier movies the film grain was very high."

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

That's some interesting info- thanks for posting.

Author
Time

msycamore said:

How do these look on the PAL THX Laserdiscs:

However, from the shot earlier:

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time

Thanks Moth3r. These transfers are really hopeless, seems like you need to take the best looking scenes from both masters if you're even going to bother with these THX LD's.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

For ANH, the PAL master looks to be consistently better (in terms of having less DVNR applied) than the NTSC. It also appears to be from a different telecine session - colour timing, framing and certain dirt spots are all different.

For ESB, generally the NTSC master is better, except for the instances where bright lights are moving at speed which results in the weird artefacts seen in the Vader's lightsabre and the Millennium Falcon's engine. The noise reduction hardware probably had different settings for concealing light scratches and dark dirt spots. 

We don't know at the moment what ROTJ is like.

We are also assuming that there are only two (THX) masters: the PAL masters used for the French, German and Spanish LDs and the NTSC masters used for the DC and Faces releases in the US and Japan.

Guidelines for post content and general behaviour: read announcement here

Max. allowable image sizes in signatures: reminder here

Author
Time

Moth3r said:

For ESB, generally the NTSC master is better...

Ouch, I thought it wasn't even possible for a transfer to have more DVNR-artifacts than the NTSC Empire. Almost every scene on Dagobah and Cloud City is horribly affected, especially when Luke first meet Yoda and when Luke encounter Boba Fett until he leaves the city.

Moth3r said:

except for the instances where bright lights are moving at speed which results in the weird artefacts seen in the Vader's lightsabre and the Millennium Falcon's engine. The noise reduction hardware probably had different settings for concealing light scratches and dark dirt spots. 

Interesting, that also explains the faint weird dark pattern that appears whenever the sabers clash in the film other than what has been documented already. I recall that 005 thought it was dirt or something stuck in the composites in his comparison thread. (something you not notice if you don't go through it frame by frame)

I do remember that your PAL THX ANH preservation looked very nice, you need to do a comeback Moth3r. :)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

Yeah, for me, at least from what I've seen, Moth3r's PAL LD transfers were the best pre-GOUT transfers and there is indeed less DVNR in them but the presence of analog noise trips the favour towards the GOUT for me. Maybe if an even better transfer of those PAL LDs could be done and then someone went medieval on it's ass with some script similar to what DJ's is using for his project Blu but developed especially for the PAL transfer (as the problems that would need be adressed would differ from the GOUT) we could get something that would be better than the GOUT. Maybe some combination could be made picking the best looking scenes from both transfers.

Author
Time

You also have the '97SE Laserdiscs for many original scenes, I've heard they shouldn't have the smearing which the broadcasts display.

It's really frustrating, the thing is that you could probably make a very solid transfer if you took the best parts of all various LD's as every transfer have its own set of problems, but there's such an massive undertaking if you would and even then you end up with just a solid transfer in LD-resolution.

Maybe George Lucas should release these films in good quality afterall, so we all can enjoy them again. I've heard some companies do such things with old classics. ;)

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time
 (Edited)

Well, to be honest, I will probably never watch any LD transfer again, I only see them as sources for my projects. But I see the importance of making the best possible transfer of the actual original. Until and if there is an official remastered release of the originals, I will probably go to my DeEds 90% of the time and if I wanted to watch the actual actual original, I'd probably go with Puggo's versions but it would still give me a warm feeling to know that a very solid SD transfer without horrible DVNr and with nice colours is sitting on my shelf.

I'm 99% sure that it was the black market with LD transfers that made LFL release the GOUT - a shitty transfer but just that tiny little bit better than every fan made bootleg out there. So it seems like the only way to make LFL release a better transfer is to make bootlegs that will set the bar much higher than what is currently commercially available.

Author
Time

Yes, what you do is incredible and very important and also very nice for most fans that just want to have a version to watch in hi-res without the damn crap intruding on their films.

As you know I asked you about the links to your edits, but I must admit that I think I'm so obsessed and purist in my mind when it comes to the first two films that I wouldn't be able to watch your edits without looking at how good you accomplished and de-specialised certain shots or not instead of loosing myself in the "original" so I gave up the thought. It's amazing but I can still lose myself in these films when I watch some of the original versions out there even though I know these films by frame, I really thought that would be impossible especially after the frame by frame obsessiveness in 005's thread. ;)

The biggest reason I cannot watch anything sourced from the 2004 transfer, is the completely destroyed cinematography, I even choose the DVNR of GOUT and low res before that shit. I also know that I am in minority in this thinking. What you do is wonderful though, I love the passion behind your work.

We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions. 

Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com

Author
Time

msycamore said:

I must admit that I think I'm so obsessed and purist in my mind when it comes to the first two films that I wouldn't be able to watch your edits without looking at how good you accomplished and de-specialised certain shots or not instead of loosing myself in the "original" so I gave up the thought. It's amazing but I can still lose myself in these films when I watch some of the original versions out there even though I know these films by frame, I really thought that would be impossible especially after the frame by frame obsessiveness in 005's thread. ;)

The biggest reason I cannot watch anything sourced from the 2004 transfer, is the completely destroyed cinematography, I even choose the DVNR of GOUT and low res before that shit. I also know that I am in minority in this thinking.

But you're not alone... ;)

And in the time of greatest despair, there shall come a savior, and he shall be known as the Son of the Suns.

Author
Time

LexX said:

msycamore said:

I must admit that I think I'm so obsessed and purist in my mind when it comes to the first two films that I wouldn't be able to watch your edits without looking at how good you accomplished and de-specialised certain shots or not instead of loosing myself in the "original" so I gave up the thought. It's amazing but I can still lose myself in these films when I watch some of the original versions out there even though I know these films by frame, I really thought that would be impossible especially after the frame by frame obsessiveness in 005's thread. ;)

The biggest reason I cannot watch anything sourced from the 2004 transfer, is the completely destroyed cinematography, I even choose the DVNR of GOUT and low res before that shit. I also know that I am in minority in this thinking.

But you're not alone... ;)

^^Same here. I can only watch the blurry GOUT movies or nothing.