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Inconsistencies, retcons, and other problems in the OT

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Are we talking inconsistencies in the OUT, or the SEs, which introduce a whole batch of problems?

 

 

 

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Whatever you like. If you want to point out that R2 should have been stuck in those rocks that he somehow managed to squeeze into, then that's just fine. If you want to complain about Leia and Luke as twins, that's just dandy.

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Luke and Leia didn't seem to be twins at all, and then suddenly they were. 

And I don't see how R2 could have gotten behind those rocks on his own. I mean, it's obvious the production crew had to get him back there, and it's no coincidence we don't see him navigate his way out of there on his own. We just cut away and then back, and suddenly he's out. 

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Uh, those rocks weren't there when the scene was filmed, so the crew had no such problem. ;)

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SilverWook said:

Uh, those rocks weren't there when the scene was filmed, so the crew had no such problem. ;)

But, that rock looked too heavy to be moved into the scene afterwards.

Something fishy is going on. :D

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I'd say that the largest problem with the OT from a technical plot point of view is the idea that the Millennium Falcon, without hyperdrive, manages to locate and fly to Lando's mining operation.

Think about this for a minute.

The only way that a ship without a hyperdrive would be able to get to another planet would be if that planet was in the same star system as it was. Accordingly, Bespin must be a planet in the Hoth system. However, this raises some questions. If the Hoth system was devoid of habitation, why didn't the rebels know about this operation, including Han and Leia? Furthermore, how convenient is it that this mining colony, located in the rebel's backyard, is home to Lando Calrissian, a friend to captain Solo and previous owner of the Falcon? The chances against that happening are literally astronomical.

Speaking of highly convenient occurrences, Yoda's death seems to require more explanation than is given in Jedi. As it is, he dies five minutes after Luke arrives on Dagobah, a stunning coincidence. It could be that it was his destiny to train Luke, and seeing as his training was complete, there was nothing to prolong his life. Or Luke's training took such a toll that he hung on long enough to tell Luke about his sister, then croaked. It could be that one of these hypotheses could be tastefully mentioned in the sequel trilogy as part of a character's greater understanding of the Force, but I'm not holding my breath.

On the subject of sisters, obviously Leia as Luke's sister was a misstep.

Another, less important issue concerns the Falcon's speed. In Star Wars, Han states that the Falcon is very fast, that she can make .5 past light speed. This seems to be a measure of her hyperdrive capabilities. Later, Lando also boasts that she's the fastest ship in the galaxy. However, in Jedi, Han says to Lando that the Falcon is the fastest ship in the fleet, and that would presumably help him in the battle over Endor. This implies that the Falcon is extremely fast at sublight travel as well, despite not being able to outrun a Star Destroyer at sublight speed. This isn't necessarily a problem, as the Falcon could be the fastest ship in the galaxy in hyperspace, while only being the fastest ship in the rebel fleet at sublight speed. Again, not as much a problem as it is a confusing technical distinction.

All of these problems except for the first aren't really problems in my book. The OT doesn't have all that many as far as I can tell.

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It's said on screen the Falcon is in the Anoat system when Han mentions Lando.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I don't think Lucas cared about the little details anyway. Even the best SW movies were cynical cash grabs from the beginning. The more Lucas was paying attention to the merchandising, the more problems the movie had.

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generalfrevious said:

I don't think Lucas cared about the little details anyway. Even the best SW movies were cynical cash grabs from the beginning. The more Lucas was paying attention to the merchandising, the more problems the movie had.

Really? Really??

Since the first Star Wars was a huge risk for the studio, and ESB was a huge risk with Lucas's own money, can't we, even at our most fan-hatred filled, call them sincere cash grabs?

And is it possible that when not caring about the relative speed of hyperdrive, Lucas just figured the FANS didn't give a damn and only cared about the story, not "this won't effect the bottom line."

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NeverarGreat said:

Speaking of highly convenient occurrences, Yoda's death seems to require more explanation than is given in Jedi. As it is, he dies five minutes after Luke arrives on Dagobah, a stunning coincidence. It could be that it was his destiny to train Luke, and seeing as his training was complete, there was nothing to prolong his life.

Actually, this happens in real life a lot. It is not at all uncommon to see a terminally ill person on the threshold of death to hang onto life for days or weeks and then die literally within minutes of some far away living loved one finally being able to make it to see them. We have a remarkable ability to fight and hang onto to life. If this happens in the real world you can easily assume a powerful Jedi master would easily be able to carry out the same feat, but perhaps in an even more remarkable way or for a longer time.

I've always assumed Yoda was hanging onto life waiting for Luke to return before letting go.

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TV's Frink said:

The Lando System?

Lando isn't a system, he's a man.

 

A sexy, sexy, dark chocolate man.

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TheBoost said:

generalfrevious said:

I don't think Lucas cared about the little details anyway. Even the best SW movies were cynical cash grabs from the beginning. The more Lucas was paying attention to the merchandising, the more problems the movie had.

Really? Really??

Since the first Star Wars was a huge risk for the studio, and ESB was a huge risk with Lucas's own money, can't we, even at our most fan-hatred filled, call them sincere cash grabs?

And is it possible that when not caring about the relative speed of hyperdrive, Lucas just figured the FANS didn't give a damn and only cared about the story, not "this won't effect the bottom line."

What about Jedi? It was the lynchpin of the whole franchise, and since it falls short of perfect, the OT was already ruined. Maybe when he made the first star wars he might have cared about the story. But remember, he just wanted to remake Flash Gordon in the first place, and ANH strongly resembled any of the later prequels until it was saved in editing.

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CP3S said:

TV's Frink said:

The Lando System?

Lando isn't a system, he's a man.

 

A sexy, sexy, dark chocolate man.

Lando isn't a sytstem, he's a... dang it.  Too late for that one too, eh?

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Rewrite the Prequels!

 

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SilverWook said:

It's said on screen the Falcon is in the Anoat system when Han mentions Lando.

But how did the Falcon get from the Hoth system to the Anoat system without a hyperdrive?

I'm guessing that nobody making the movie noticed this peculiarity, but it could just as well be that they were talking about two different uses of the word system at that point, star systems and planetary systems. If the 6th planet of the Hoth star system was where the rebel base was located, couldn't the Anoat planetary system be in the asteroid field, or directly beyond the it?

Picture Hoth as being where Mars is in our solar system. The Falcon could fly through the asteroid field, then find itself in the orbit of Jupiter, aka the Anoat system. Bespin would be another gas giant, aka Saturn. Since the distance between Mars and Saturn is about 8 AU, it would only take the Falcon 24 hours to travel there, traveling at only 5% the speed of light. Allowing for the high probability that the planets wouldn't be directly aligned, the trip from the orbit of Jupiter to the planet Saturn could take many weeks. However, this long voyage is likely based on how long Luke was expected to have trained with Yoda while this was happening.

If we take the Anoat and Bespin systems to be different star systems, however, they would likely be many light years away, which would take years to reach, even traveling at a high percentage of the speed of light.

This was probably just a mistake on the part of those making the movie, but in this way it could work.

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generalfrevious said:

TheBoost said:

generalfrevious said:

I don't think Lucas cared about the little details anyway. Even the best SW movies were cynical cash grabs from the beginning. The more Lucas was paying attention to the merchandising, the more problems the movie had.

Really? Really??

Since the first Star Wars was a huge risk for the studio, and ESB was a huge risk with Lucas's own money, can't we, even at our most fan-hatred filled, call them sincere cash grabs?

And is it possible that when not caring about the relative speed of hyperdrive, Lucas just figured the FANS didn't give a damn and only cared about the story, not "this won't effect the bottom line."

What about Jedi? It was the lynchpin of the whole franchise, and since it falls short of perfect, the OT was already ruined. Maybe when he made the first star wars he might have cared about the story. But remember, he just wanted to remake Flash Gordon in the first place, and ANH strongly resembled any of the later prequels until it was saved in editing.

I for one have never seen the preliminary version of Star Wars, but I highly doubt that it "strongly resembled" the prequels. And to say that just because Jedi wasn't perfect means that the entire trilogy was ruined makes very little sense. Is Nolan's Batman trilogy ruined because Rises didn't live up to the first two?

DuracellEnergizer: “^He’s embraced the absurd. Don’t expect to gain any conventional understanding from his posts.”
A New Hope Technicolor Recreation (Released!)
The Force Awakens Restructured (V2 Released!) and The Starlight Project

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TV's Frink said:

The Lando System?

Yeah The Lando System is an exciting new way to keep fit and earn money.

 

  • Initially, you receive $10 from your ten people – we call them Tier 1 since they are the top tier in your personal 'Cloud City'. They see you as P10 and, “right off the bat, you made your investment back but nobody says you gotta stop there!”

  • You then expect to receive $100 from the ten people recruited by each person in Tier 1. We call these people Tier 2 and they see you as P9. “Pretty good huh, in a matter of a few days, you recovered your initial investment and sat back to see $100 in pure profit roll in! It gets better.”

  • You can expect to receive at least $1000 from the people in Tier 3 since the guys at Tier 2 will be at least as diligent as you were in recruiting new folks – surely they will sign on at least ten and the more they sign on, they more we all make. “You’re just getting started, use that $1000 as the down payment on the twin pod cloud car of your dreams dude – you’re at P8 with seven full cycles to go!”

  • By the time you get that new car home, and probably before you make your first payment, Tier 4 will be raining dollar bills on you to the tune of $10,000. “Imagine, you made $11,100 in a matter of weeks from a total investment of $10!”

  • The letter goes on to explain (with lots of hype that I won’t continue to bother with here) that Tier 5 sees you as P6 paying you $100K; Tier 6 sees you as P5 paying you $1M; Tier 7 pays you $10M as P4; Tier 8 pays you $100M as P3; Tier 9 pays you $1B as P2 and Tier 10 pays you $10B as P1 and you’re off the lists.

“Ok, any fool can see that you’ll make a profit of $1,111,111,100 if the people in your downline just manage to recruit ten people – with just a ten people turn around, the money will come pouring in and all it costs you is $10 and ten stamps. Here’s the really important part – this is all strictly legal because all I am guaranteeing is that YOU will make YOUR investment back if YOU recruit 10 people and that is all you will be guaranteeing them by giving them a copy of this letter which has been approved and endorsed by the Post Master General, the Bespin Baron Administrator's Office and the smoothest scoundrel this side of Mos Eisley!

Now I’m not trying to make you believe in “pie in the sky,” neither of us really believes that you are actually going to become a billionaire ten times over by investing a mere $10 – life doesn’t really work like that. The potential is there, but realistically, nobody expects to make more than a few hundred thousand and you may not even make that much. Other than the people you recruit, you are counting on other people to make you successful just as I am counting on you.

On the other hand, you are in control of recovering your investment and you know you can do that right away. What have you got to lose?”

Discover the benefits of the Lando System today!

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Dp2OfIT_M

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Is that how he got enough dosh to buy cloud city?

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It also explains his beautiful smile.  He was becoming a millionaire by selling himself toothpaste!  Such a cunning plan!

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NeverarGreat said:

SilverWook said:

It's said on screen the Falcon is in the Anoat system when Han mentions Lando.

But how did the Falcon get from the Hoth system to the Anoat system without a hyperdrive?

I'm guessing that nobody making the movie noticed this peculiarity, but it could just as well be that they were talking about two different uses of the word system at that point, star systems and planetary systems. If the 6th planet of the Hoth star system was where the rebel base was located, couldn't the Anoat planetary system be in the asteroid field, or directly beyond the it?

Picture Hoth as being where Mars is in our solar system. The Falcon could fly through the asteroid field, then find itself in the orbit of Jupiter, aka the Anoat system. Bespin would be another gas giant, aka Saturn. Since the distance between Mars and Saturn is about 8 AU, it would only take the Falcon 24 hours to travel there, traveling at only 5% the speed of light. Allowing for the high probability that the planets wouldn't be directly aligned, the trip from the orbit of Jupiter to the planet Saturn could take many weeks. However, this long voyage is likely based on how long Luke was expected to have trained with Yoda while this was happening.

If we take the Anoat and Bespin systems to be different star systems, however, they would likely be many light years away, which would take years to reach, even traveling at a high percentage of the speed of light.

This was probably just a mistake on the part of those making the movie, but in this way it could work.

I just like to think the Star Wars galaxy is in a very far away region of the universe with different constants of nature (speed of light, gravitational constant, Planck's constant, etc).  Then I don't have to worry about the fantastical violations of physics as we know it.

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"lightspeed" is heavily implied to be ludicrously fast. Fast enough that the stars streak out and that going to the other side of the galaxy is a matter of hours. Which incidentally is sort of consistent with the scale of a real galaxy. The comment by the imperial officer is probably just hyperbole to make a point, but still, really damn fast.

While sublight speed is implied to be more in the range of actual lightspeed, going between yavin and the death star only taking a few minutes and flying to another system being feasible at all. It's never really specified how long it takes for them to get to bespin. Judging by the intercutting with luke, at least a couple of days. Although lukes' training is probably heavily time compressed. Of course, they do seem to have a very loose use of the term system, so you never know.

What's really interesting is that luke is never shown to go into hyperspace either when travelling from hoth to dagobah or from dagobah to bespin. Or even from tatooine to dagobah and back to sullust in ROTJ. I guess you could say it was implied. But you do have that rather lengthy scene of him just chatting to r2 while flying.
Were x-wings even supposed to be able to go to hyperspace before the massive hyperspace jump in ROTJ?

It's possible the stellar density is simply very high. You have to remember that here on earth we're in the outer rim of our own galaxy in a rather empty neighbourhood. The density can get as much as 500 times more dense according to estimates. Although this still doesn't explain tatooine which is supposed to be in a similarly remote corner of the galaxy.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. This isn't Star Trek, and you don't have to justify every little thing as long as it works on screen.

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There is a difference between plot holes, inconsistent story arcs, and scientific inaccuracies.  The former are actual problems, the latter is often what science fiction relies on!  So I wouldn't lump these light-speed issues in with real plot issues, because eventually you'll find yourself rejecting every sci fi movie ever made.

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But do they have "Ludicrous Speed"? ;)

Seriously though, I think they wanted to save the hyperspace shots for big dramatic moments, like the Falcon's last minute escape in ESB, and the whole Rebel Fleet in Jedi. I admit I was surprised the rebel fighters could jump back in '83.

Whether rebel fighters could jump in SW is murky, however, Luke and Leia are off on a long mission in a X-Wing and a Y-Wing in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, which almost became the first movie sequel.

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