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I hate the Jedi — Page 2

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OutboundFlight said:

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Just because the Jedi and Sith can experience the Force doesn’t mean they can know it perfectly or wholly. A most robust understanding of the Force may lie along a higher synthesis of their philosophies.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Make Off Topic great again.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Just because the Jedi and Sith can experience the Force can’t mean they can know it perfectly or wholly. A most robust understanding of the Force may lie along a higher synthesis of their philosophies.

As one reviewer commented, the concept of The Force was very vague in SW77 - and that was it’s strength. Christian, Buddhist, Neo-Pagan etc. could all see their own religion in it. The more specific you get the more you are going to diverge from some people’s beliefs. The basic tenants of The Force we get from SW77:

  1. trust/believe in yourself
  2. think of others/the greater good
  3. take risks
  4. technology isn’t everything
  5. money isn’t everything

Simple and beautiful. And true.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Just because the Jedi and Sith can experience the Force can’t mean they can know it perfectly or wholly. A most robust understanding of the Force may lie along a higher synthesis of their philosophies.

As one reviewer commented, the concept of The Force was very vague in SW77 - and that was it’s strength. Christian, Buddhist, Neo-Pagan etc. could all see their own religion in it. The more specific you get the more you are going to diverge from some people’s beliefs. The basic tenants of The Force we get from SW77: trust/believe in yourself, think of others/the greater good, take risks, technology isn’t everything. Simple and beautiful.

In addition to the above, the dark and light sides should’ve been states of mind rather than innate attributes/divisions of the Force itself. That’s where I feel the depiction of the Force started going off the rails.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Make Off Topic great again.

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Time

DuracellEnergizer said:

theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Just because the Jedi and Sith can experience the Force can’t mean they can know it perfectly or wholly. A most robust understanding of the Force may lie along a higher synthesis of their philosophies.

As one reviewer commented, the concept of The Force was very vague in SW77 - and that was it’s strength. Christian, Buddhist, Neo-Pagan etc. could all see their own religion in it. The more specific you get the more you are going to diverge from some people’s beliefs. The basic tenants of The Force we get from SW77: trust/believe in yourself, think of others/the greater good, take risks, technology isn’t everything. Simple and beautiful.

In addition to the above, the dark and light sides should’ve been conceived as states of mind rather than innate attributes/divisions of the Force itself. That’s where I feel TESB started going off the rails.

Using power for selfish reasons IS the darkside. Does that really need to be elaborated on further in a Space Opera?

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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 (Edited)

theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Just because the Jedi and Sith can experience the Force can’t mean they can know it perfectly or wholly. A most robust understanding of the Force may lie along a higher synthesis of their philosophies.

As one reviewer commented, the concept of The Force was very vague in SW77 - and that was it’s strength. Christian, Buddhist, Neo-Pagan etc. could all see their own religion in it. The more specific you get the more you are going to diverge from some people’s beliefs. The basic tenants of The Force we get from SW77: trust/believe in yourself, think of others/the greater good, take risks, technology isn’t everything. Simple and beautiful.

In addition to the above, the dark and light sides should’ve been conceived as states of mind rather than innate attributes/divisions of the Force itself. That’s where I feel TESB started going off the rails.

Using power for selfish reasons IS the darkside. Does that really need to be elaborated on further in a Space Opera?

I don’t disagree. But perhaps my argument’s getting muddled.

There’s the Force as I feel it should’ve been, and there’s the Force as it is. The Force should’ve been an innately positive (or neutral) Force which still could’ve been misused by people with bad intent. The Force as it is is a dualistic Force. Since we’re stuck having to deal with the dualistic Force, we have to find ways of interpreting that dualism through a lens appealing to us. The consensus believes that you can’t dip toes in both positivity and negativity without eventually defaulting to one; I believe otherwise. But again, I’d prefer not to view the Force through a dualistic framework to begin with.

Divergent Universes
Dreams of a Randy Git-Fiend

Make Off Topic great again.

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This might’ve been said but I felt that was the point. Characters like Jolee, Qui-Gon, and Luke could be considered “grey” relative to the status quo of the more fundamentalist Jedi, but that philosophy is more in line with what the Jedi originally were, before they became more dogmatic. So Qui-Gon and Luke are what the Jedi are meant to be, so they shouldn’t be called “grey”. They’re just Jedi. If anything, the prequel Jedi could be called something different.

Also, the “I can use both dark side AND light side powers!” idea that people equate to grey Jedi is different from new Jedi like Luke who acknowledge their inner shadow that everyone has rather than ignore it, like the Prequel Jedi did.

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theprequelsrule said:

DominicCobb said:

The PT sets up a dogma that’s doomed to fail - anger, hate, and fear are all natural human emotions and suppressing them can be dangerous and unhealthy.

Incorrect; the dogma is set up by ESB and followed through in the Prequels!

No I don’t think that is quite right. TESB sets up the delineation. But the PT is where it gets dogmatic and the suppression comes in.

Of course you’re not wrong that one lead to another. I guess you could say they started down the dark path in TESB and it ended up dominating their destiny.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

theprequelsrule said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

OutboundFlight said:

I don’t think Gray Jedi is the solution. You can’t say the side that destroyed planets, purged races, and slaughtered children are half the good guys now, and the people doing everything to stop them were partially in the wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

Just because the Jedi and Sith can experience the Force can’t mean they can know it perfectly or wholly. A most robust understanding of the Force may lie along a higher synthesis of their philosophies.

As one reviewer commented, the concept of The Force was very vague in SW77 - and that was it’s strength. Christian, Buddhist, Neo-Pagan etc. could all see their own religion in it. The more specific you get the more you are going to diverge from some people’s beliefs. The basic tenants of The Force we get from SW77: trust/believe in yourself, think of others/the greater good, take risks, technology isn’t everything. Simple and beautiful.

In addition to the above, the dark and light sides should’ve been conceived as states of mind rather than innate attributes/divisions of the Force itself. That’s where I feel TESB started going off the rails.

Using power for selfish reasons IS the darkside. Does that really need to be elaborated on further in a Space Opera?

I don’t disagree. But perhaps my argument’s getting muddled.

There’s the Force as I feel it should’ve been, and there’s the Force as it is. The Force should’ve been an innately positive (or neutral) Force which still could’ve been misused by people with bad intent. The Force as it is is a dualistic Force. Since we’re stuck having to deal with the dualistic Force, we have to find ways of interpreting that dualism through a lens appealing to us. The consensus believes that you can’t dip toes in both positivity and negativity without eventually defaulting to one; I believe otherwise. But again, I’d prefer not to view the Force through a dualistic framework to begin with.

Excellent reasoning. I don’t completely agree but I really like your idea that The Force is innately positive. So maybe somehow it gets twisted to evil by Palpatine - the existence of the darkside and it’s powers/abilites comes out of nowhere and takes the Jedi totally by surprise. Instead of their vision being “clouded” as in the PT, they don’t know that such a corruption of The Force is even possible. However; Obi-wan’s dialogue in SW77 seems to indicate that the Jedi are aware of a malevolent “darkside” that exists separate from the “lightside” (a term I hate).

Do we have any interviews with Lucas from the 70s indicating what he meant by The Darkside of the Force? I distrust later interviews of course due to Lucas’ penchant for revisionism.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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 (Edited)

DominicCobb said:
Of course you’re not wrong that one lead to another. I guess you could say they started down the dark path in TESB and it ended up dominating their destiny.

Exactly! From a meta view it also could have gone really badly. The ROTJ script exercised a lot of restraint. I think if ROTJ had been made today Luke would be shown using all sorts of ridiculously overpowered Force abilities.

EDIT: Those last three sentences kind of belong in another thread of mine.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

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Time

I always beat this particular Tauntaun but I think the Force went off the rails in ROTJ. Yes, in TESB Yoda was a moralising grouch, but that didn’t necessarily give him the final word. Gary Kurtz indicated that the original story idea for ROTJ would have had Luke wandering off into the sunset via a bittersweet ending. To me that indicates a possible sense of ambiguity for Luke - perhaps a blurring of the divide between the so-called Light and Dark. In ROTJ a simple loss of temper is a path to eternal damnation, which I think is childish. ROTJ also added the genetic component (via the ludicrous shoehorning of Leia into the ‘other hope’ role) which in turn led to Midichlorians and virgin births. The Force was, in Lucas’ words back in the day, “space-Yoga”, and could easily have transcended Yoda’s take on things after TESB.

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Shopping Maul said:

I always beat this particular Tauntaun but I think the Force went off the rails in ROTJ. Yes, in TESB Yoda was a moralising grouch, but that didn’t necessarily give him the final word. Gary Kurtz indicated that the original story idea for ROTJ would have had Luke wandering off into the sunset via a bittersweet ending. To me that indicates a possible sense of ambiguity for Luke - perhaps a blurring of the divide between the so-called Light and Dark. In ROTJ a simple loss of temper is a path to eternal damnation, which I think is childish. ROTJ also added the genetic component (via the ludicrous shoehorning of Leia into the ‘other hope’ role) which in turn led to Midichlorians and virgin births. The Force was, in Lucas’ words back in the day, “space-Yoga”, and could easily have transcended Yoda’s take on things after TESB.

I believe it was bittersweet because the triumvirate of Luke, Han, and Leia were going to split up. Han dies, Leia becomes leader of the New Republic, and Luke goes off to create a New Jedi Order. But there is nothing to indicate that Luke’s Jedi would be taught a new take on The Force. And again the idea that anger leads to the darkside is first made explicit in TESB, not ROTJ.

“It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you.”
-Kreia, Jedi Master and Sith Lord

Author
Time

theprequelsrule said:

Shopping Maul said:

I always beat this particular Tauntaun but I think the Force went off the rails in ROTJ. Yes, in TESB Yoda was a moralising grouch, but that didn’t necessarily give him the final word. Gary Kurtz indicated that the original story idea for ROTJ would have had Luke wandering off into the sunset via a bittersweet ending. To me that indicates a possible sense of ambiguity for Luke - perhaps a blurring of the divide between the so-called Light and Dark. In ROTJ a simple loss of temper is a path to eternal damnation, which I think is childish. ROTJ also added the genetic component (via the ludicrous shoehorning of Leia into the ‘other hope’ role) which in turn led to Midichlorians and virgin births. The Force was, in Lucas’ words back in the day, “space-Yoga”, and could easily have transcended Yoda’s take on things after TESB.

I believe it was bittersweet because the triumvirate of Luke, Han, and Leia were going to split up. Han dies, Leia becomes leader of the New Republic, and Luke goes off to create a New Jedi Order. But there is nothing to indicate that Luke’s Jedi would be taught a new take on The Force. And again the idea that anger leads to the darkside is first made explicit in TESB, not ROTJ.

You’re right in that this doesn’t necessarily indicate a shift in the ‘anger’ position re the Force, but it does point (however vaguely) to a stronger film with a less binary sense of victory. Kurtz was talking as someone who wanted to carry on the more philosophical and characterisation-heavy attitude of TESB (which, as a fan, I was hoping for), so going on that alone we can assume more depth with regard to Luke’s outcome with Vader and Palpatine - even if only by virtue of stronger dialogue and better direction. I see Yoda’s stance in TESB as more of a ‘don’t lose your focus’ type of thing rather than ‘any violence whatsoever is bad’. I still think it’s ROTJ that dumbs it all down to ‘be nice to daddy or you’ll turn evil’.

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I think people are focusing too much on the “message” behind the rules governing the Force and the dark side, and not enough on the fact that it’s just a fantasy magic system.

The dark side is only something that applies to people who actually use the Force. This means that it is a risk associated with that particular activity. People who do not use the Force, such as Han Solo, can be as morally gray as they want without any risk whatsoever of falling to the dark side. So the message isn’t “anger is always bad”, it’s “you need to be tremendously careful and have tremendous self control when dealing with this mysterious fantasy power”.

The whole appeal of fantasy is that it allows us to explore the human condition from angles not possible in reality. And in the case of the Force, it allows writers to explore the idea of how people would respond to a situation in which they have access to this mysterious power that constantly puts them at risk of being consumed by their negative emotions. It’s not supposed to be a direct moral lesson for real life, because the dark side doesn’t exist in real life. You need to stop thinking about real life and just immerse yourself in the fantasy.