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Hey guys, Remember when Star wars had writing like this? — Page 2

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Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenWe'll have to agree to disagree.

C3PO was a fussy pessimist in Star Wars, and a whining, complaining, annoying pest in Empire.

Leia (prounounded Lee-ah) was a feisty firebrand in Star Wars - while Leia (pronounded Lay-eh) was, well, a whining, complaining, PMSing shrew through most of Empire.


The changes were primarily in the dialogue, and were - I believe - due to the tonedeafness of the screenwriters who mistook feistyness for obnoxiousness and fussiness for annoyingness.


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Obijeewhyen, I will always respect that you are a SW '77 fan at heart, but I will have to disagree with you on this one. I think the acting in ESB between the big three: Leia, Luke, and Han are better then SW, and that is cause of Kersh. Now in saying all of this, SW'77 is still my favorite movie of all-time, but the performances in ESB are overall better.

Just watch the scene where the millenium falcon goes into the asteroid field, and watch Han & Leia bickering back and forth, that is great acting and great chemistry for a SW film. And just think of them doing all of this in front of screen with NOTHING!!! Nothing but what Kersh is telling them about this asteroid field, and watch as they are so believable as to the trouble they are in. That is what a great director does, get performances out of the actors.

SW '77 has great acting, but I feel it comes from the older actors: Alec Guinness, Peter Cushing, and Phil Brown. All of them are seasoned actors, and Lucas couldn't put his bad directing stamp on them. Luke, Leia, and Han don't give great performances in SW '77, but their chemistry is unmatched for any film I have ever seen, and their humor is top notch too. Leia yelling at Han, Han being a pompous ass, Luke being the good guy, that is all they needed to do in the first SW movie, just play their part, and if you look at it that way, that is the reason the movie is a classic, it didn't need great performances like ESB did, cause the movie wasn't as intimate and the characters weren't as fleshed out.

As for Han & Leia in ROTJ, Blaaaahhhh! Can you say collecting a paycheck.
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I'm with you, CO!

I think the dialogue between Han, Leia, Chewie and Threepio, while trapped in the MF and on the run from most of the Imperial starfleet, is excellent.

I really think you're unfair to the writing of Leia's character. She's just been fighting to defend the rebel base on Hoth when she's forced to run, against her will. She gets trapped with Han and has to leave with him, bearing in mind how they've been getting on in the film so far. Not only that, but she has to share the ship with not just a chauvenist, but a big hairy animal and a prissy, cowardly motormouth as well. Add to this that they get further and further separated from the rest of the rebels in a ship that's falling apart around their ears and then wander into an asteroid field. After that, she's taken to meet the chauvenist's friend, who turns out to be a slimy charmer who's eyeing her up. Then it turns out that they've walked into a trap and they're bait for the nice guy, who she likes.

Considering that all she wants to do is get back with the rebels and get on with things, I think she holds it together pretty well.

Of course, all this is compounded by the fact that she is confused and very irritated by the fact that, despite all the things she hates about the chauvenist, she finds him irresistably attractive. This pisses her off no end.

Therein, I feel, lies ESB's greatest asset, in watching Princess Leia and Han Solo fall in love, despite themselves.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: auraloffalwaffle


Therein, I feel, lies ESB's greatest asset, in watching Princess Leia and Han Solo fall in love, despite themselves.



Isn't it sad that we all find the ESB love story totally believable when it really is just a side story to the real story of Vader/Luke encounter on Cloud City, yet Lucas spends a whole frickin movie with Padme/Anakin falling in love in countless scenes and none of us believe it, or just can't bear to watch it anymore!
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Originally posted by: CO
Isn't it sad that we all find the ESB love story totally believable when it really is just a side story to the real story of Vader/Luke encounter on Cloud City, yet Lucas spends a whole frickin movie with Padme/Anakin falling in love in countless scenes and none of us believe it, or just can't bear to watch it anymore!
Desperately. It's all part of Luca$h's mistake of focusing entirely on Anakin/Vader, making everything else background to his story.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I'll grant that the three leads exhibited maturing as actors in Empire. I frankly preferred the chemisty between Leia and Han in Star Wars as the classic antagonists who are quite attracted to one another. The same routine did not work in Empire for me because Leia was no longer smart-alecky, but merely angry and downright mean.

Yes, when she warmed up to Han, the love chemistry between them was great. Perhaps the screenwriters had her be so nasty just so that her warming up would register more strongly. Bah. I think they blew it. Till the kiss, she was a complete bitch. Again, I think the screenwriters mistook wiseguy banter for nasty childishness. I forget the name of the couple whom George brought in to do the 40's-era dialogue between Han and Leia for Star Wars, but he should have brought them on board again for the sequel.


Still, I will not deny the chemistry between Han and Leia in Empire, and I think it was there in
Star Wars, too. But what happened to them in Jedi? I felt zip between them (eh, Harrison Ford was phoning it in for the final installment).



The dialogue was, at best, uneven in The Empire Strikes Back. Lando got some great lines, Yoda had good dialogue, Han Solo's lines were fine. But Luke, Leia and C3PO got shafted in the dialogue department, in my opinion ... and (sigh) it's one of the many drawbacks I find with that most popular of Star Wars films.






edited to add :
Padme loves Anakin vs. Leia loves Han is but one of the many obvious ways in which the prequels fall tragically short of the originals. Far more effort for far less result. Feh.


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Honestly, I find that Leia is much bitchier to the other heroes in the original movie than she is in Empire. Honestly, these guys are risking their lives to free her, and all she can do is complain how they're doing it wrong. It's funny, and she has a point, but I think I would have been tempted to do what Han says and put her back in her cell and hope the Imperials would forgive me and let me go.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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But her Star Wars lines were all comedy, and her Empire lines were not. She may have been ungrateful for the rescue, but the complaining lines were jokes ... and they got laughs.

That's what I meant by the tonedeafness of the writers. 40's wiseguy banter may be nasty, but it's very funny. The same nastiness without the talent of comedic writing is just ... well, just nasty.



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Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenBut her Star Wars lines were all comedy, and her Empire lines were not. She may have been ungrateful for the rescue, but the complaining lines were jokes ... and they got laughs.

That's what I meant by the tonedeafness of the writers. 40's wiseguy banter may be nasty, but it's very funny. The same nastiness without the talent of comedic writing is just ... well, just nasty.



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See the clever thing about how Leia is in the first hour of ESB, is the reason she is bitchy is that she is in love with Han as the movies begins. But she either doesn't want to admit it, or doesn't want to give in to loving this scoundrel, cause that would go against her 'princess' upbringing.

She does the classic thing when you really like someone of the opposite sex and don't want to admit, you try to go out of your way to make the person think you don't like them. But even though Han is not a scolar like many of the Jedi, he is street smart and plays her like a fiddle the whole movie. He knows as soon as he tries to leave Hoth and she follows him at the starting, she loves him, so he leads her right down the road of telling him first. The whole movie is just a tease between the two and when she finally says she loves him what does he say? As Kevin Smith said in an interview once on why he loves ESB: "Like a pimp, he says, "I know."

ESB had to have the characters much different then SW because this was delving into how they feel about each other, rather then how to beat the Empire. SW is just about the big 3 getting kinda stuck with each other in the movie and beating the empire, and really don't have time to assess their personal relationships with anyone. ESB is really about the characters, not the story, and how they are reacting to the situation. ESB delves into each character and shows their true nature.

I think one compliments the other to perfection, and if Lucas could have continued this trend in ROTJ, it would be one awesome trilogy. ROTJ took all that was set up, with the characters, and threw them away on one plot point: Vaders redemption. You could see that is the only plot point Lucas cared about, cause that is the only great part of the movie, the rest of the movie is just the actors, the director, and our creator going through the motions and not trying to make a great movie, but the first time in SW-ville, settling for something just good enough.
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Leia still had the same characteristics in ESB as she had in ANH if you ask me. They just added more to that and she became deeper. Her strength and leadership were shown to have vulnerability underneath. Plus, the affection she displayed at times in ANH was also expanded I thought.

"Now all Lucas has to do is make a cgi version of himself.  It will be better than the original and fit his original vision." - skyjedi2005

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Absolutely. And I find that ESB's script makes me laugh too. I don't understand Obi Jeewhyen's response to it.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Guess I'll have to watch Empire again and pin down why I think she's too different. (Are those DVD's still ten dollars anywhere?)

I get what CO says about couples who like each other and try so hard not to show it that it comes off oppositely. But those couples are usually in junior high school. I've seen plenty of movies where adults are acting out the same way, but don't behave like teenagers.

In fact, I think a whole lot of the dialogue in Empire was aimed at kids particularly, instead of the "whole family" approach that Star Wars took.


To each his own. I will certainly grant that The Empire Strikes Back delved deeper into the personalities of the lead characters. But with the exception of Han Solo, I didn't like what I saw in the depths.
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Originally posted by: Obi JeewhyenGuess I'll have to watch Empire again and pin down why I think she's too different. (Are those DVD's still ten dollars anywhere?)

I get what CO says about couples who like each other and try so hard not to show it that it comes off oppositely. But those couples are usually in junior high school. I've seen plenty of movies where adults are acting out the same way, but don't behave like teenagers.

In fact, I think a whole lot of the dialogue in Empire was aimed at kids particularly, instead of the "whole family" approach that Star Wars took.


To each his own. I will certainly grant that The Empire Strikes Back delved deeper into the personalities of the lead characters. But with the exception of Han Solo, I didn't like what I saw in the depths.


ObiJeewhyen, here is where ESB ruins the saga, "I am your father!" Now I am not as high on this line as most of my SW friends, who think this is the pinnacle moment of the OT for them. For me, it is still Luke blowing up the death star in SW, that is the cream of the crop of the any movie I have ever seen.

What 'I am your father' did to the rest of the SW movies is make Lucas think that EVERY fan loves Darth Vader and wants to know everthing about him. WRONG!!!!! I love Darth Vader as a bad guy, or an antagonist in the OT, but I don't like him as the star of the saga now, that is one of the reasons why I will never be a saga fan.

Lucas saw how everyone reacted at that one line in ESB, and I personally think he went Vader crazy after that. He pigeoned holed the saga to focus so much on Darth Vader, he has cut out so many would be fans like me who fell in love with the rebellion beating the empire through my heroes Luke, Leia, and Han.

By Lucas constantly saying it is Darth Vader story now 1-6, or the tragedy of Darth Vader, he has essentially made SW into a fanbase 1-6 that loves Darth Vader and his story, and that is it, cause everything in the PT took a backseat to Anankins story. And now if you look at the saga overall 1-6, the PT was really explains the last hour of ROTJ and why Anakin did what he did to save his son and kill the Emperor. The problem is there is a huge story that we all fell in love with that had to do with Luke, Han, and Leia that is just a footnote now.

Just think of some newcomer watching it 1-6 in order. You get 3 movies about Jedi vs Sith, and follow Anakin for 3 movies as he becomes evil. By Episode IV, would you really care about these three joksters on the deathstar hamming it up? Will you really care about Han/Leia in the millenium falcon falling in love for half the movie in ESB? Would you really care about a rescue for the first 40 minutes on Han Solo by his friends in ROTJ?

No that viewer will want more Yoda, more Emperor, and definitely more Vader/Luke scenes like the ones in the last hour of ROTJ? Lucas has essentially discarded what made the OT great to all of us for Darth Vader character arc, and that is what it is now, a character arc of Darth Vader as a little kid to his death at the end of ROTJ. No character gets a full arc like that in SW. What made me fall in love with SW was Luke and his battle to blow up the death star in the original SW, now that is part 4 of a movie that really doesn't have that much Vader in it.

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QTF!

Like someone had said before (and even Lucas himself) that the PT's would've made Obi-Wan the focal character, and we see all from his perspective.

In some respects, like another poster on ORS (formerly TFN), Binary Sunset, he would've been happy with a "Die Hard" ending where Vader comes after Luke on Yavin, they duel, and Luke beheads the monster who killed his father.

I would've been perfectly happy if Star Wars had ended on that note..... of course, we insatiable fans still would've begged for more.
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Absolutely right, CO.


I dig Darth Vader alot ... but in much smaller doses. Not only do I not like his entire childhood-to-death story arc, I don't even like him as a stand-alone villain, or as the main bad guy. Perhaps it's because it's so hard to convey a performance with no face ... but I think Vader worked much better as the henchman than as the main baddy. In Star Wars and Jedi, he had great actors to play off - he was subordinate to Peter Cushing and Ian McDiarmid, the badass asskicker to the powerful badguys ... and I think Vader had far greater effect in those cinematic circumstances.

He often seems silly to me in Empire, when he's leading the bad guy show. There's only so much faceless performance I can take. There's likely no better voice than James Earl Jones, but I need a face to convey evil. Playing off Grand Moff Tarkin and Emperor Palpatine, Vader was terrific. Sometimes less is more.





(And yeah, I loved "I am your father." But it all went downhill from there, didn't it?)





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Originally posted by: Obi Jeewhyen
(And yeah, I loved "I am your father." But it all went downhill from there, didn't it?)
This is it, really, for me. Several people on here have complained of the "universe-shrinking" of having all the characters related to each other, etc. I daresay Luca$h took it a little too far, especially with the slight suggestion that Palpatine's Sith Master may have created Anakin, or whatever. But my own theory is that the "universe-shrinking" effect all stems from the narrowed focus on Anakin Skywalker. As you rightly say, CO, Obi Jeewhyen, everything else is becoming background to the life story of Vader/Anakin. The reason SW and ESB are more interesting than any of the other movies is that they don't suffer from that narrow focus.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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Originally posted by: CO

ObiJeewhyen, here is where ESB ruins the saga, "I am your father!" Now I am not as high on this line as most of my SW friends, who think this is the pinnacle moment of the OT for them. For me, it is still Luke blowing up the death star in SW, that is the cream of the crop of the any movie I have ever seen.

I would like to join in on this, I have some things to say.

While Luke doing away with the Death Star is one of the most powerful climaxes in the saga, the famous Vader line is one of the darkest revelations in dialogue delivered in cinematic history. I cannot really see how anyone could dislike this. It opens up a lot of new storylines and doors for the movies.

Think about it. Luke now knows who his father really is. That is motive for staying on the lightside, because as long as he stays on the lightside and does not succumb to the Emperor, then there is the chance of making his father... a true father again. That's the cornerstone of Return of the Jedi, which never would have worked without Darth Vader giving Luke the truth.

Originally posted by: CO

What 'I am your father' did to the rest of the SW movies is make Lucas think that EVERY fan loves Darth Vader and wants to know everthing about him. WRONG!!!!! I love Darth Vader as a bad guy, or an antagonist in the OT, but I don't like him as the star of the saga now, that is one of the reasons why I will never be a saga fan.

At first in Episode IV we were kept in ignorance of who Darth Vader was. Lucas said that the fans thought to themselves: "Is there even a human underneath that suit?" We are supposed to see Vader as the arch-villain at first.

But as the story grows and enriches itself through more character development, we start to see that yes there is a man under there, and no, he is not the only hero. He is a fallen hero who has to rise again with the help of Luke.

Originally posted by: CO

Lucas saw how everyone reacted at that one line in ESB, and I personally think he went Vader crazy after that. He pigeoned holed the saga to focus so much on Darth Vader, he has cut out so many would be fans like me who fell in love with the rebellion beating the empire through my heroes Luke, Leia, and Han.


No no no. The trio (Luke, Leia, Han) still remained very powerful heroes on the screen even after Episode IV set them up as the only large heroes. But as the movies progress, and more villains appear, there has to be more apparent heroic characters to balance that out (ei. Anakin Skywalker himself.)

Originally posted by: CO

By Lucas constantly saying it is Darth Vader story now 1-6, or the tragedy of Darth Vader, he has essentially made SW into a fanbase 1-6 that loves Darth Vader and his story, and that is it, cause everything in the PT took a backseat to Anankins story. And now if you look at the saga overall 1-6, the PT was really explains the last hour of ROTJ and why Anakin did what he did to save his son and kill the Emperor. The problem is there is a huge story that we all fell in love with that had to do with Luke, Han, and Leia that is just a footnote now.


If we just view IV without context of the other films, and as stand-alone film, then the story is over at that, and it's no longer the tragedy of Darth Vader, but becomes the heroics of the unlikely trio we find in Luke, Leia, and Han. There is nothing wrong with that at all.

But if we are to expand beyond that, we need more characters and arcs than just with those three people. Beyond IV, we need a deeper storyline, or the heroics of the trio quickly get worn-out, milked for all they are worth, and become meaningless. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Why hello there
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I just checked, and that writing is still in there.

It didn't go anywhere.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Oh, shove it up your arse, Mr. Tonic...
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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(sigh) and I dared to hope we'd finally heard the last, and needn't swallow any more Tonic.



Whether you like the Darth life-story arc or not, is it too much to ask that a sequel not contradict the movie it's following? Make a different movie if the tale you want to tell makes what you said in the first movie untrue. Bah. How lazy!
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Wonderful disposition you have there. You must be a ball at family gatherings.

And nothing was contradicted, from a certain point of view.

I think it's the people who can't adjust their perceptions as they get new information that are the lazy ones.

It all makes perfect sense if you allow it to.

Holy crap, I'm rhyming.

I think I'll take a trip to the zoo!
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
Wonderful disposition you have there. You must be a ball at family gatherings. Your remark was deliberately vacuous and disrespectful and I treated it with as much respect as it gave me.
Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
And nothing was contradicted, from a certain point of view.

I think it's the people who can't adjust their perceptions as they get new information that are the lazy ones.
Not if the alteration of perception is of such a degree as to render the person incapable of assessing the worth of the thing itself.

If I altered my perceptions of what is good food to the point where I regarded processed burgers as being as good as 100% ground beef steak patties, then I'd just be making a fool of myself.Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
It all makes perfect sense if you allow it to.
So does ANYTHING!!! It's not even remotely a good argument!
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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I'm talking about being able to listen to Obi-Wan talk about why he said what he did, and accept that as a vaolid possibility, even though Lucas obviousy made a lot of this up as he went.

It takes a lot of effort to make on the fly changes like this "fit". Much more than it would to not come up with new things for the story and just stick to only the things you already came up with in your head for the first one.

It really is being lazy to act like Lucas' solution to Obi-Wan's apparant contradiction doesn't make any sense.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but it does make good logical sense the way Lucas did it.

The whole saga is about points of view, and this is one of the showcases of that in action.

How could you possibly not appreciate that?
Your focus determines your reality.
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Originally posted by: Go-Mer-Tonic
... It really is being lazy to act like Lucas' solution to Obi-Wan's apparant contradiction doesn't make any sense ... The whole saga is about points of view, and this is one of the showcases of that in action ... How could you possibly not appreciate that?
Where do you get off, levelling accusations like that at people?!!

If it's all about points of view, then you have efectively rendered this whole discussion null and void anyway.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!
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If you choose to see it that way.
Your focus determines your reality.
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Yeah. That's a real mind-bender. Well done.
Don't you call me a mindless philosopher...!