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Has Star Wars finally "jumped the shark"? — Page 3

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ZkinandBonez said:

Fair enough. But quality of filmmaking has nothing to do with wheather or not something should/could be added the lore; that’s all I’m saying.

I agree that new things can and should be added—it’s just the way they’re added that has to feel right; like they belong, like they’ve always been there/been possible. Even if you’ve never seen something happen before, it should feel like it could have happened all along. I remember the first time everyone saw Jabba in ROTJ and how great and disgusting he was—he didn’t feel out of place, he was just…Jabba.

I didn’t mean to turn this into another TLJ-bashing thread. Just wanted to discuss the current perception of the Star Wars films with the public in general. I think the brand has been cheapened, and it’s going to affect the future of the franchise.

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SilverWook said:

Of course, the Superman films would never just toss out some random power we’ve never seen before out of the blue. 😛

I never took the Superman films that seriously. They were just goofy fun. 😉

BTW, they just sold the “bad Superman” costume from Superman III in an auction. If you check out the ROTJ auction thread I made, you can see it in the catalog.

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Mielr said:

ZkinandBonez said:

Fair enough. But quality of filmmaking has nothing to do with wheather or not something should/could be added the lore; that’s all I’m saying.

I agree that new things can and should be added—it’s just the way they’re added that has to feel right; like they belong, like they’ve always been there/been possible. Even if you’ve never seen something happen before, it should feel like it could have happened all along. I remember the first time everyone saw Jabba in ROTJ and how great and disgusting he was—he didn’t feel out of place, he was just…Jabba.

I didn’t mean to turn this into another TLJ-bashing thread. Just wanted to discuss the current perception of the Star Wars films with the public in general. I think the brand has been cheapened, and it’s going to affect the future of the franchise.

I get what you’re saying. I’ve had similar reactions to the new movies, I just tend to take these differences as a natural side effect of them being new movies, using new methods. Plus, it’s all very subjective; the new Star Trek films f.ex. does nothing for me at all. They just feel off. But I get why people like them.

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i recall realizing that leia was force pulling herself to the ship and not flying, the problem for me is she being alive.

you guys did it! thank you guys so much! 😄

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ZkinandBonez said:

I’m curious as to how people would have reacted to the “flying Leia” scene had something similar been done back in the 80’s. I really think this scene has the most polarized reactions in the entirety of TLJ. Some people love it, and others think it’s complete nonsense. Even my first reaction was “is this brilliant or silly?”. Maybe it’s the obvious CG-look of the moment that puts people off?

Or maybe it’s the fact that many anticipated a Leia death scene,

then all of a sudden she “flies” back to safety (it’s pretty jarring the first time). Or maybe GotG vol.2 was still to fresh in people’s memory and all they could think of was Yondu’s Mary Poppins scene.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea, but I can’t help but find the execution of the scene to be a tad off. It’s the wide-shot of her flying (this shot) that weirds me out a bit. But none of this makes it a “bad” scene in my mind. Plus, it’s a scene that to me gets less weird the more I watch it, though I can’t tell if that’s a good or bad sign.

emphasis mine, i agree with much of your post, but that part stands out, and i think it is impossible for most of us to effectively gauge what our subconscious was doing as we watched this, but i strongly suspect that our collective thought was “ok, this is how she dies”, and then we were all wrong.

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dahmage said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I’m curious as to how people would have reacted to the “flying Leia” scene had something similar been done back in the 80’s. I really think this scene has the most polarized reactions in the entirety of TLJ. Some people love it, and others think it’s complete nonsense. Even my first reaction was “is this brilliant or silly?”. Maybe it’s the obvious CG-look of the moment that puts people off?

Or maybe it’s the fact that many anticipated a Leia death scene,

then all of a sudden she “flies” back to safety (it’s pretty jarring the first time). Or maybe GotG vol.2 was still to fresh in people’s memory and all they could think of was Yondu’s Mary Poppins scene.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea, but I can’t help but find the execution of the scene to be a tad off. It’s the wide-shot of her flying (this shot) that weirds me out a bit. But none of this makes it a “bad” scene in my mind. Plus, it’s a scene that to me gets less weird the more I watch it, though I can’t tell if that’s a good or bad sign.

emphasis mine, i agree with much of your post, but that part stands out, and i think it is impossible for most of us to effectively gauge what our subconscious was doing as we watched this, but i strongly suspect that our collective thought was “ok, this is how she dies”, and then we were all wrong.

That’s exactly what I thought the first time I saw TLJ, so when her hand suddenly started twitching and her eyes opened it really caught me off guard. It’s a scene I didn’t really appreciate until I saw it a second time. For me that actually applies to all of the new films; I don’t properly watch them on their own terms until I sew it a second time.

I think the Internet has shifted a lot of the focus on the actual production of movies, and as a result we’re simply watching movies differently than before. Nowadays we expect so much beforhand, and there’s such a diverse range of opinions, preferences and pre-suppositions. Back in the 80s people really just wanted more SW. Now people want their interpretation of what SW should be. And of course there’s no established template for what that is.

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ZkinandBonez said:

dahmage said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I’m curious as to how people would have reacted to the “flying Leia” scene had something similar been done back in the 80’s. I really think this scene has the most polarized reactions in the entirety of TLJ. Some people love it, and others think it’s complete nonsense. Even my first reaction was “is this brilliant or silly?”. Maybe it’s the obvious CG-look of the moment that puts people off?

Or maybe it’s the fact that many anticipated a Leia death scene,

then all of a sudden she “flies” back to safety (it’s pretty jarring the first time). Or maybe GotG vol.2 was still to fresh in people’s memory and all they could think of was Yondu’s Mary Poppins scene.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea, but I can’t help but find the execution of the scene to be a tad off. It’s the wide-shot of her flying (this shot) that weirds me out a bit. But none of this makes it a “bad” scene in my mind. Plus, it’s a scene that to me gets less weird the more I watch it, though I can’t tell if that’s a good or bad sign.

emphasis mine, i agree with much of your post, but that part stands out, and i think it is impossible for most of us to effectively gauge what our subconscious was doing as we watched this, but i strongly suspect that our collective thought was “ok, this is how she dies”, and then we were all wrong.

That’s exactly what I thought the first time I saw TLJ, so when her hand suddenly started twitching and her eyes opened it really caught me off guard. It’s a scene I didn’t really appreciate until I saw it a second time. For me that actually applies to all of the new films; I don’t properly watch them on their own terms until I sew it a second time.

I think the Internet has shifted a lot of the focus on the actual production of movies, and as a result we’re simply watching movies differently than before. Nowadays we expect so much beforhand, and there’s such a diverse range of opinions, preferences and pre-suppositions. Back in the 80s people really just wanted more SW. Now people want their interpretation of what SW should be. And of course there’s no established template for what that is.

This feels spot on. I had a similar experience watching TFA the first time where I had trouble accepting what it actually was trying to do and didn’t fully love it until my second viewing. Didn’t make the same mistake with TLJ and went in with no expectations and allowed it to tell the story it wanted to tell. Loved it right away.

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DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

dahmage said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I’m curious as to how people would have reacted to the “flying Leia” scene had something similar been done back in the 80’s. I really think this scene has the most polarized reactions in the entirety of TLJ. Some people love it, and others think it’s complete nonsense. Even my first reaction was “is this brilliant or silly?”. Maybe it’s the obvious CG-look of the moment that puts people off?

Or maybe it’s the fact that many anticipated a Leia death scene,

then all of a sudden she “flies” back to safety (it’s pretty jarring the first time). Or maybe GotG vol.2 was still to fresh in people’s memory and all they could think of was Yondu’s Mary Poppins scene.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea, but I can’t help but find the execution of the scene to be a tad off. It’s the wide-shot of her flying (this shot) that weirds me out a bit. But none of this makes it a “bad” scene in my mind. Plus, it’s a scene that to me gets less weird the more I watch it, though I can’t tell if that’s a good or bad sign.

emphasis mine, i agree with much of your post, but that part stands out, and i think it is impossible for most of us to effectively gauge what our subconscious was doing as we watched this, but i strongly suspect that our collective thought was “ok, this is how she dies”, and then we were all wrong.

That’s exactly what I thought the first time I saw TLJ, so when her hand suddenly started twitching and her eyes opened it really caught me off guard. It’s a scene I didn’t really appreciate until I saw it a second time. For me that actually applies to all of the new films; I don’t properly watch them on their own terms until I sew it a second time.

I think the Internet has shifted a lot of the focus on the actual production of movies, and as a result we’re simply watching movies differently than before. Nowadays we expect so much beforhand, and there’s such a diverse range of opinions, preferences and pre-suppositions. Back in the 80s people really just wanted more SW. Now people want their interpretation of what SW should be. And of course there’s no established template for what that is.

This feels spot on. I had a similar experience watching TFA the first time where I had trouble accepting what it actually was trying to do and didn’t fully love it until my second viewing. Didn’t make the same mistake with TLJ and went in with no expectations and allowed it to tell the story it wanted to tell. Loved it right away.

me too, but i didn’t love TLJ. i think nowadays i dislike TFA so much because i tried really hard to like it and failed.

you guys did it! thank you guys so much! 😄

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DominicCobb said:

ZkinandBonez said:

dahmage said:

ZkinandBonez said:

I’m curious as to how people would have reacted to the “flying Leia” scene had something similar been done back in the 80’s. I really think this scene has the most polarized reactions in the entirety of TLJ. Some people love it, and others think it’s complete nonsense. Even my first reaction was “is this brilliant or silly?”. Maybe it’s the obvious CG-look of the moment that puts people off?

Or maybe it’s the fact that many anticipated a Leia death scene,

then all of a sudden she “flies” back to safety (it’s pretty jarring the first time). Or maybe GotG vol.2 was still to fresh in people’s memory and all they could think of was Yondu’s Mary Poppins scene.

I personally think it’s a really interesting idea, but I can’t help but find the execution of the scene to be a tad off. It’s the wide-shot of her flying (this shot) that weirds me out a bit. But none of this makes it a “bad” scene in my mind. Plus, it’s a scene that to me gets less weird the more I watch it, though I can’t tell if that’s a good or bad sign.

emphasis mine, i agree with much of your post, but that part stands out, and i think it is impossible for most of us to effectively gauge what our subconscious was doing as we watched this, but i strongly suspect that our collective thought was “ok, this is how she dies”, and then we were all wrong.

That’s exactly what I thought the first time I saw TLJ, so when her hand suddenly started twitching and her eyes opened it really caught me off guard. It’s a scene I didn’t really appreciate until I saw it a second time. For me that actually applies to all of the new films; I don’t properly watch them on their own terms until I sew it a second time.

I think the Internet has shifted a lot of the focus on the actual production of movies, and as a result we’re simply watching movies differently than before. Nowadays we expect so much beforhand, and there’s such a diverse range of opinions, preferences and pre-suppositions. Back in the 80s people really just wanted more SW. Now people want their interpretation of what SW should be. And of course there’s no established template for what that is.

This feels spot on. I had a similar experience watching TFA the first time where I had trouble accepting what it actually was trying to do and didn’t fully love it until my second viewing. Didn’t make the same mistake with TLJ and went in with no expectations and allowed it to tell the story it wanted to tell. Loved it right away.

The new SW movies have really taught me the importance of not projecting your own ideas onto movies and judge them on their own terms. I still have issues with certain things, but I now try to only judge the quality of the filmmaking.

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For me, no. I’m not happy about where it is now, but I’m sure it’ll bounce back. I wasn’t happy where it was with the PT either.

For the general public? Maybe. It gets “meme-y” to hate on things because everyone else is. It’s just the popular thing to do right now; plus it was probably more popular than it has been in a long time with TFA and Rogue One coming out, and we’re just going to see a drop off as the general public stops paying attention again and it goes back to the nerds.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

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I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

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Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

Don’t get me started on the MCU.

I want to be naked, running through the streets.
I want to invite this so-called chaos you think I dare not be.
I want to be weightless, flying through the air.
I want to drop all these limitations and return to what I was born to be.

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Creox said:

I think it’s interesting there is a thread on SW jumping the shark or/and over-saturation in the same reality that has Marvel just releasing its what?..umpteenth flick about superheroes.

IMO it seems SW fans want their films to be rare events and in reality their wish for more comes with a lot of caveats.

Consumers eat up multiple comic book movies and 10-hour+ series every year. Marvel’s success suggests frequency and over-saturation aren’t the problem.

originaltrilogy.com Administrator

The things you pwn end up pwning you.

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I think Star Wars will just carry on more or less forever (like Star Trek) with ebbs and flows in popularity. And, like Star Trek, fans will continue to draw their own canon-lines.

Personally I think the series pole-vaulted its shark in 1983. I guess I’ve chosen a particularly uncompromising shark! But my own fannish conservatism aside, I really enjoy the new movies as a kind of ‘what if’ observation, and I love seeing kids responding to Rey and Kylo and the new cast.

The thing that saddens me the most is the very reason this site exists - namely that Star Wars 1977-1983 does not exist and the kids who are discovering this wonderful universe can only reference the deeply inferior (IMO) Special Editions and never get a true sense of where this incredible saga came from.

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I guess you could say it leaped the Sarlacc?

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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I don’t it has “jumped the shark”. My issue with the new films is how fast they’ve been cranking this shit out. They aren’t giving the new movies any room to breath. The Force Awakens was a decent 6-6.5/10 flick but it was kinda relying too heavily on it’s sequel to pick up it’s slack. Rouge One was a nice change of pace and it was a nice appetizer before the main course (The Last Jedi). My biggest issue with RO was well, spoiler alert: they get the Death Star plans and personally I find the exhaust port thing being a flaw to be revisionist history. But that’s just par for the course with Star Wars. Then, The Last Jedi comes out and I’d say a solid 1/4 of the fanbase’s reception to the movie was negative (myself included). Then, about a week after TLJ hits video, Solo is out. I hadn’t even digested TLJ yet and next thing I know I see a trailer for Solo and it comes out in a week. Like, how didn’t I hear about this? (I guess I shouldn’t take long breaks from this site)

It’s not that I want Star Wars to be a “rare event”, I just don’t have the time for the Marvel movies. I don’t wanna see 3 films in the same series a year. Is it too much to ask just to space out the movies another year or two?

I want time to digest a movie. If Star Wars went the direction of the X-Men movies, with one every year or two (or 3) taking place in different eras, with different characters doing different things I’d be fine with it. But so far, it’s all people fighting Stormtroopers, flying X-wings, Shooting TIE Fighters, etc.

I mean, other than TFA and TLJ, everything has been ANOTHER fucking prequel. Is a whole TV series, and two feature films in the same era not enough? What about a movie or TV show that takes place in between the OT and the ST? The era everyone wants to know about?

It all just feels like more of the same, and it feels like I’m having things pushed on me I don’t want.

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But you don’t have to go see all of it. I went to see Infinity War mainly because the Guardians of The Galaxy are in it. I would think few comic readers follow every Marvel or DC book. They probably only keep up with their favorites.
I thought an SW movie once a year was fine, (alternating between saga and story films) but Disney moved Solo up to summer and it was simply too damn soon after TLJ.

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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Well I know I don’t have to go see it, I have yet to see Solo and honestly I don’t think I will for a very long time. I’m just saying it would be nice if there was a little more variety. But at the moment, I think the production schedules are just too small. I think we can all agree that Rouge One needed a little time in the oven with character development and TLJ could have used some time as well (I’m not going to get into TLJ because I don’t want to open that can of worms today).

I just think that once every couple years at least would not only give them more breathing room, but it might tighten up the scripts. You know what I mean? Not only that, but it would give the community time to get hype built up. It feels like the hype machine can’t catch up with how fast they’re putting these movies out, when it should be the other way around. Now admittedly I hate hype culture and I do my damnedest to stay away from it, but let’s be honest, TFA and RO had a lot of hype and it was really hard not to get excited for those films.

It’s not even a critique of the films themselves. I can take a sub-par Star Wars movie or five (all the s**t I talk about RO and TFA is nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking, I actually dig those flicks). I’ve been cool with that since The Caravan of Courage. Sorry for the wall of text, I ramble when I have a couple drinks after work 😃

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I’d be up for a dark gritty Ewok movie. My personal canon is Mace didn’t die in Battle For Endor, and now lords over the Duloks like Col. Kurtz in Apocalypse Now. 😛

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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SilverWook said:

But you don’t have to go see all of it. I went to see Infinity War mainly because the Guardians of The Galaxy are in it. I would think few comic readers follow every Marvel or DC book. They probably only keep up with their favorites.

You should’ve tried watching Civil War without having seen Age of Ultron or Ant-Man. You would’ve found yourself somewhat lost, like I did.

I want to be naked, running through the streets.
I want to invite this so-called chaos you think I dare not be.
I want to be weightless, flying through the air.
I want to drop all these limitations and return to what I was born to be.

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I did see the first Avengers movie without having seen anything else but Iron Man. I wasn’t lost. 😃

originaltrilogy.com Moderator

Where were you in '77?

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moviefreakedmind said:

Shopping Maul said:

and I love seeing kids responding to Rey and Kylo and the new cast.

Why?

I think it’s just really cool how this franchise had endured across generations. Most films from 1977 are just ‘old movies from 1977’ now. With SW we are still following the same story 40 years later! It’s so awesome to see kids at Comicon dressed as Rey and Kylo and Phasma, knowing that I was enjoying the exact same feelings when I was their age. Call me sentimental I guess!

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

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Shopping Maul said:

With regards to Rey, whatever fanboy misgivings I may personally have about the writing, I do think its great that Kathleen K. and co. have given young girls their own Luke Skywalker to look up to and dress up as.

I’m in two minds about this, because to me it feels like putting the cart before the horse. I agree with the idea that these franchises could use a lot more female protagonists and antagonists, and that gender should not be a determining factor in casting a character in general. As such on average there should be about an equal number of male/female protagonists, and antagonists. However, I consider the statement, that young girls cannot relate to or identify with Luke Skywalker, because he’s male to be inherently sexist. The character of Luke Skywalker is an avatar for the desires and hopes of both men and women. As such, it shouldn’t matter, if the character is portrayed by a man or a woman. Lucas wasn’t trying to cater to a specific gender group when he created the character. Consequently, Luke could have been a girl, and the story would have played out in exactly the same way. The only time the gender of a character matters, is when that character, has specific traits, that are gender specific, or if you want to specifically relate to a specific gender group. In all other cases casting should be driven by having equal representation of men and women, not by the sexist notion, that men can only relate to men, and women only relate to women.

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I imagine there were people who thought the shark jump wasn’t that bad, maybe even good.

The Leia thing mostly worked for me. For whatever reason, I got what was happening and it held together just enough. I would compare it to surviving a fall from a plane in an inflatable raft, which also worked just enough for me, more than the shark or fridge. And even then I don’t think Leia in space was that extreme. At the end of the day it’s a mostly subjective determination.

What I think is unforgivable is how they think they got Leia back in. Simply put they couldn’t have gotten her in time.

Rey’s radical progress in using the Force is the shark jump for me.

The blue elephant in the room.