How about this, in the Western world, if twins are born the first one out is considered the "older" sibling (and heir, where applicable), though in Japan, in the same situation, the second one born is considered "older" (I dunno, maybe because it gestated for a few minutes longer, or sat above the other in the womb...). Either way, still the same birthday, regardless of your perception of which is older.
Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.
chyron8472 said:
The original version of the film ought to be considered as the version that was first theatrically released. That means, in this case, that there are 3 original audio mixes. Neither one is more original than the other.
You would have had me convinced if all three mixes were worked on simultaneously. But they worked on the 35mm stereo first, the 70mm stereo second, and the mono third.
Gogogadget said:
Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.
It exactly matches the Star Wars audio mixes in that respect, which makes it a good example.
I think it's pretty clear we're going in circles here. For most of the world, pre-release production details are simply trivia that add insight into the final product, but don't fundamentally change its authenticity. Obviously, we've run into someone for whom pre-release production details fundamentally change the authenticity of the final product. That's fine, but it's clearly an unusual--as in atypical, not wrong--way of looking at things.
Gogogadget said:
Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.
In my viewpoint, if someone wants a movie to have all three simultaneously released endings be considered original, that person also has to shoot all three endings simultaneously, which is of course impossible with live actors (Run, Lola, Run is an exception, because all three endings are within the film itself) but not impossible with cartoons (with cartoons, you can do anything with them, you can have multiple scenarios drawn, each by a different person, on paper, at the same time). Otherwise, you can't say "all endings were made at the same time". One ending of Clue must have been filmed first before the others, and I'm guessing it's ending A (where Miss Scarlet is the murderer).
CatBus said:
Gogogadget said:
Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.
It exactly matches the Star Wars audio mixes in that respect, which makes it a good example.
I think it's pretty clear we're going in circles here. For most of the world, pre-release production details are simply trivia that add insight into the final product, but don't fundamentally change its authenticity. Obviously, we've run into someone for whom pre-release production details fundamentally change the authenticity of the final product. That's fine, but it's clearly an unusual--as in atypical, not wrong--way of looking at things.
But you must remember, Catbus, that the 35mm stereo version was the first finalized version of the film itself. That is, the first release print finished was 35mm stereo before the other audio mixes could be finished.
By that logic, the first rough cut of Star Wars with all the cut scenes is actually the original. The workprint version of Blade Runner is the original. With Clue, you could go further and say, that the ending first written is actually the original, or the ending first conceived in the mind of the creator is the original.
As I said above, they worked on the 4-track master first.
That is the original mix.
Both the 35mm stereo and 70mm 6-track versions were then largely copied from it, with some changes in presentation made to each, mainly for technical reasons. The metaphor of twins is an apt one in this case, since they were completed within a very short time of each other. The only reason they weren't done simultaneously is that it wasn't physically possible to print more than one mix at a time with the equipment the mixers had available.
If you really want to hear the actual, true first mix of the film, you'd need to go to LFL and pull out the 4-track master tape and listen to that. This would be the only way to hear the 'most original' copy of their work, if overly specific definitions are to be used. It would sound very similar to the stereo mix except with discrete channels and an unrestricted dynamic range. (But no bass.) The stereo version is a compromise derived from this master, made in order to accommodate the limitations of a delivery format which could not contain the full mix in its entirety.
Rumor has it that some 35mm prints were actually made in 4-track magnetic format. This would yield a sound closer to the source, but it still wouldn't have been as powerful as the 70mm, owing to the slower speed of the film going through the projector (in analog sound, slower speed equals lesser fidelity), and the lack of dedicated bass tracks.
In the end, arguing over strict originality is silly, because no released version is completely identical to what was first put on tape. It becomes a question of which do you value more: the fact that one printmaster was finalized a day or two before the next, or that one of the mixes retains the superior sound quality and power of the source and is further optimized for that purpose? The fact is that both the 35mm stereo and 70mm 6-track versions were heard in theatres on the film's opening day of May 25, 1977. Both were sourced from the same master copy. Neither is entirely the same as the version they were derived from. Both mixes provide a great aural experience for the film, depending what kind of sound system you have and what its capabilities are. How much more 'original' could you possibly get?
(The mono mix doesn't really apply to this discussion, since it was remixed entirely from scratch and didn't appear in theatres until a month later. Sam Shaw, who is credited as the film's Supervising Sound Editor, didn't even work on that version. The multitude of changes make it the earliest example of revisionism in the film's long history of being altered. Nonetheless it was part of the theatrical run and the only mix heard by many people at the time, so it 'partially' counts.)
At any rate, the really remarkable thing about all this is that we've been able to preserve or approximate a great deal of the work that was done on the film back then, allowing it to be seen and heard at a quality level that was unthinkable even a few years ago. Recognizing that the goal of somehow achieving a perfect, 100% authentic most original ever version is an ephemeral one at best, given its history, being able to sit back and watch the movie without being frustrated by shortcomings in presentation is a pretty great feeling. Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is ultimately the reason why we're here in the first place. ;)
hairy_hen said:
As I said above, they worked on the 4-track master first.
That is the original mix.
Both the 35mm stereo and 70mm 6-track versions were then largely copied from it, with some changes in presentation made to each, mainly for technical reasons. The metaphor of twins is an apt one in this case, since they were completed within a very short time of each other. The only reason they weren't done simultaneously is that it wasn't physically possible to print more than one mix at a time with the equipment the mixers had available.
If you really want to hear the actual, true first mix of the film, you'd need to go to LFL and pull out the 4-track master tape and listen to that. This would be the only way to hear the 'most original' copy of their work, if overly specific definitions are to be used. It would sound very similar to the stereo mix except with discrete channels and an unrestricted dynamic range. (But no bass.) The stereo version is a compromise derived from this master, made in order to accommodate the limitations of a delivery format which could not contain the full mix in its entirety.
Rumor has it that some 35mm prints were actually made in 4-track magnetic format. This would yield a sound closer to the source, but it still wouldn't have been as powerful as the 70mm, owing to the slower speed of the film going through the projector (in analog sound, slower speed equals lesser fidelity), and the lack of dedicated bass tracks.
In the end, arguing over strict originality is silly, because no released version is completely identical to what was first put on tape. It becomes a question of which do you value more: the fact that one printmaster was finalized a day or two before the next, or that one of the mixes retains the superior sound quality and power of the source and is further optimized for that purpose? The fact is that both the 35mm stereo and 70mm 6-track versions were heard in theatres on the film's opening day of May 25, 1977. Both were sourced from the same master copy. Neither is entirely the same as the version they were derived from. Both mixes provide a great aural experience for the film, depending what kind of sound system you have and what its capabilities are. How much more 'original' could you possibly get?
(The mono mix doesn't really apply to this discussion, since it was remixed entirely from scratch and didn't appear in theatres until a month later. Sam Shaw, who is credited as the film's Supervising Sound Editor, didn't even work on that version. The multitude of changes make it the earliest example of revisionism in the film's long history of being altered. Nonetheless it was part of the theatrical run and the only mix heard by many people at the time, so it 'partially' counts.)
At any rate, the really remarkable thing about all this is that we've been able to preserve or approximate a great deal of the work that was done on the film back then, allowing it to be seen and heard at a quality level that was unthinkable even a few years ago. Recognizing that the goal of somehow achieving a perfect, 100% authentic most original ever version is an ephemeral one at best, given its history, being able to sit back and watch the movie without being frustrated by shortcomings in presentation is a pretty great feeling. Let's not lose sight of the fact that this is ultimately the reason why we're here in the first place. ;)
Good point, hairy_hen (although it would still be correct to say the 35mm stereo version of Star Wars is older than the 70mm stereo version, if someone asked you). So, the 4-track master mix is the mix I would hear on the original camera negative of Star Wars?
Ebaillargeon82 said:
Gogogadget said:
Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.
In my viewpoint, if someone wants a movie to have all three simultaneously released endings be considered original, that person also has to shoot all three endings simultaneously, which is of course impossible with live actors (Run, Lola, Run is an exception, because all three endings are within the film itself) but not impossible with cartoons (with cartoons, you can do anything with them, you can have multiple scenarios drawn, each by a different person, on paper, at the same time). Otherwise, you can't say "all endings were made at the same time". One ending of Clue must have been filmed first before the others, and I'm guessing it's ending A (where Miss Scarlet is the murderer).
Spoiler alert!
Well, the negative doesn't have any soundtrack attached to it. The mix would have been recorded onto reels of multitrack tape running in synch with the picture (not the actual negative but a copy, to reduce physical wear and tear), which were then put through further processing and duped onto printmasters for each film format the movie was due to be released in. The 4-track most likely exists as audio only, without any actual film being attached to it.
As a point of interest, the 4-track was also the main source for the 1997 Special Edition mix. If you listen to any part of the movie that hasn't been re-edited or had additional sound effects piled on top of it, you can hear that it is extremely similar to the 35mm stereo and 70mm versions. Because of this, it makes for a much better listening experience than the DVD or Bluray (which are outright terrible).
hairy_hen said:
Well, the negative doesn't have any soundtrack attached to it. The mix would have been recorded onto reels of multitrack tape running in synch with the picture (not the actual negative but a copy, to reduce physical wear and tear), which were then put through further processing and duped onto printmasters for each film format the movie was due to be released in. The 4-track most likely exists as audio only, without any actual film being attached to it.
As a point of interest, the 4-track was also the main source for the 1997 Special Edition mix. If you listen to any part of the movie that hasn't been re-edited or had additional sound effects piled on top of it, you can hear that it is extremely similar to the 35mm stereo and 70mm versions. Because of this, it makes for a much better listening experience than the DVD or Bluray (which are outright terrible).
Speaking of which, are the original 1977 35mm stereo prints, the original 1977 70mm stereo prints, and the original 1977 mono prints all lost, or do prints still exist?
Mono and stereo prints do exist (and people work on digitizing them), but anything on 70mm is very hard to come by.
Fanrestore - Fan Restoration Forum: https://fanrestore.com
I was watching Harmy's Star Wars today. It is stunning how great it looks and the best part of it I was watching to enjoy it and not looking for flaws. That is a great feeling.
looking for HDTV of the Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Also HDTV of The Lord of the Rings trilogy
x
I came up with something like that while working on a translation, and needing to distract myself with anything but the job at hand:
Tomorrow, I want you to take that trilogy to Harmy and have its alterations erased. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.
CatBus said:
I came up with something like that while working on a translation, and needing to distract myself with anything but the job at hand:
Tomorrow, I want you to take that trilogy to Harmy and have its alterations erased. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.
XD!
"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)
Ebaillargeon82 said:
Gogogadget said:
Clue is a bad example because the film was released simultaneously with those multiple endings so there is no 'original' version.
In my viewpoint, if someone wants a movie to have all three simultaneously released endings be considered original, that person also has to shoot all three endings simultaneously, which is of course impossible with live actors (Run, Lola, Run is an exception, because all three endings are within the film itself) but not impossible with cartoons (with cartoons, you can do anything with them, you can have multiple scenarios drawn, each by a different person, on paper, at the same time). Otherwise, you can't say "all endings were made at the same time". One ending of Clue must have been filmed first before the others, and I'm guessing it's ending A (where Miss Scarlet is the murderer).
Now you're just splitting hairs, besides I said released, not filmed.
CatBus said:
I came up with something like that while working on a translation, and needing to distract myself with anything but the job at hand:
Tomorrow, I want you to take that trilogy to Harmy and have its alterations erased. That'll be the end of it. It belongs to us now.
But what if some fan comes look for them?
Nobody sang The Bunny Song in years…
They won't. I don't think they exist anymore. They died around the same time as the Prequels.
You knew the prequels?
Nobody sang The Bunny Song in years…
I told you to forget it.
CatBus said:
I told you to forget it.
Yes, sir. I think this Despecialized Edition is going to work out fine. I, uh, was also thinking about our agreement about preserving the original mix forever. And if this Despecialized Edition does work out, I want it to replace the original camera negative this year.
Ok, in regards to the real world, I decided it would be less confusing if fans (including myself) only need to download the Despecialized Edition and not bother with all those confusing .srts (they confused me). So, I decided to convert the MKV file into an AVI file. I then uploaded it on YouTube.com, but Fox almost immediately blocked it on copyright grounds. Then, I uploaded it on archive.org.
So you can watch the Despecialized Edition at: * DELETED *
For some reason, I can't stream the video (as of this writing). But fans can still download it. No need to download all the confusing stuff (well, to me, it was confusing) that I mentioned above.
Ebaillargeon82 said:
hairy_hen said:
Well, the negative doesn't have any soundtrack attached to it. The mix would have been recorded onto reels of multitrack tape running in synch with the picture (not the actual negative but a copy, to reduce physical wear and tear), which were then put through further processing and duped onto printmasters for each film format the movie was due to be released in. The 4-track most likely exists as audio only, without any actual film being attached to it.
As a point of interest, the 4-track was also the main source for the 1997 Special Edition mix. If you listen to any part of the movie that hasn't been re-edited or had additional sound effects piled on top of it, you can hear that it is extremely similar to the 35mm stereo and 70mm versions. Because of this, it makes for a much better listening experience than the DVD or Bluray (which are outright terrible).
Speaking of which, are the original 1977 35mm stereo prints, the original 1977 70mm stereo prints, and the original 1977 mono prints all lost, or do prints still exist?
So it's settled. You don't need to worry about whether or not various sound mixes survived, because the original version of Star Wars is a silent film. ;)