Kind of refreshing to overhear little kids talking about “lifesavers.”
I know I’ve made some very poor decisions recently.
Kind of refreshing to overhear little kids talking about “lifesavers.”
Lol
I’m just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe.
Star Wars has 3 eras: The eras are 1977-1983(pre Expanded Universe), (1983-2014) expanded universe, or (2014- now) Disney-bought version. Each are valid.
Important voice tool:
https://originaltrilogy.com/post/id/1472151/action/topic#1472151
For all the assholes who keep giving me shit for my reviews, here’s your fuckin proof: https://youtube.com/shorts/7ytqBdVYoWw?si=-AIkldGZmOY-1LVP
Did all the humans in Star Wars have a common ancestor on a planet or did at least some of them develop independently?
I used to go with the former, but now I prefer the latter. I’d rather the SW Universe operate on fantastical laws than futilely try to shoehorn realistic physics into it.
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
Apparently every species has the same blood, not just the human ones.
Ponda Baba’s blood looked more brown than red to me.
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.
Apparently every species has the same blood, not just the human ones.
Ponda Baba’s blood looked more brown than red to me.
But somehow they all have perfect living conditions for the “M Count”…
I hate Messianic prophecies in general, or the very idea of a Messiah, because it encourages the idea that all hope for the future is dependent on one dude, instead of like, the group effort that is required in real life.
Granted, Star Wars doesn’t incorporate a true Messiah into the mythology. Vader is more like a very round-about Messiah who only saves the Universe after he fucks over the entire Universe. So it’s at least a twist on the idea of a Messiah, kind of like Dune. But I still don’t like it, because it shrinks the Universe by elevating one guy to cosmic significance. At one point, Luke was just a random farmboy and Vader was just a cyborg SS officer carrying out the will of his government. There was a backstory intertwining the two of them, but it was personal, not a matter of cosmic importance.
Nothing is really a “true Messiah” because the Messiah is from Judaism, and (except for Messianic Jews) believe that the Messiah hasn’t come yet. The actual Messiah according to Christianity was of course Jesus Christ, who was a perfect being and the only possible person who could save humanity from sin and death. Jesus specifically rejected the people who wanted him to be like the conquering hero Messiah we have in fiction. He repeatedly told everyone to repent and get their own lives in order, and didn’t fulfill their fantasies of overthrowing the Romans or making himself king in a mortal sense.
There aren’t any messiahs, chosen ones, etc. in fiction who are anything close to that. It’s just a phrase people throw around like destiny or prophecy. The concept has a very specific real world context that often gets tossed out the window.
I mean, I think most people would interpret the word “Messiah” simply to refer generically to the idea of a “Chosen One” who is prophesied to appear at some designated time and play a pivotal role in overthrowing an oppressor. The Jewish concept in the OT (Old Testament, not Original Trilogy 😉) is the origin of the idea, yes, and is also a straightforward implementation of the concept, even though mainstream Judaism teaches the Messiah’s coming is a future event. The concept obviously morphed over the years, going from a prophesied savior from the Romans in the first century modeled after the O.G. King David (with various historical claimants appearing in the first century and failing badly) to various Rabbinical reinterpretations over the years.
The Christian Messiah is a Rian Johnson style “twist” on the original Jewish Messiah concept. Paul of Tarsus was like: “Oh, you thought your Messiah would come and overthrow the Romans with his laser sword? Try again, idiots. Instead, your Messiah will appear briefly and provide free healthcare to a few random people, deliver some cool parables and magic tricks, then get arrested and killed, but then rise from the grave, thus recontextualizing all Old Testament Messianic prophecy as part of an eschatological continuum beginning with Original Sin and culminating in a “second coming” event, where the Messiah will return upgraded with new super-powers and kick lots of ass, rather than a boring Maccabee-style Jewish Warrior King who implausibly defeats Tiberius Caesar. Expectations subverted.”
Most people would think that because they don’t actually know what they’re talking about. It isn’t “the origin of the idea”, it’s the idea.
If you are a Christian, it isn’t a twist on the concept. It’s the original concept that the Jews didn’t understand because they weren’t really paying attention to the prophecies.
Lego TFA has most of the cast returning for new dialogue, which seems kind of insane today. I wonder what kind of shiny thing they dangled in front of Harrison Ford for this.
Not sure where else to put this, didn’t think it warranted its own thread, but I got to thinking about all the planets/worlds in the SW films and wanted to rank them in order of how memorable/iconic they are. List includes all of the major worlds from the nine main episodes plus a few from Rogue One as well(for some reason I haven’t gotten around to watching Solo yet, but I suspect at the very least Corellia would make an updated version of the list afterwards). This is just my opinion. Wrote it out so I figured I’d post it in here.
The capital of the New Republic, destroyed in TFA. I don’t think we actually see it at all.
29/28. Jaukku/Pasaana
The planet where Rey starts off in TFA, and the planet where the trio finds Lando and Chewie “dies” in TROS. They’re Tatooine clones.
The site of TLJ’s final battle, the Battle of Cait. It’s a Hoth clone.
Where the rebel base is located in TFA, but we barely see it.
The place where Yoda/Obi-wan/Bail meet after the Obi-wan/Anakin duel, and Padme gives birth, before everyone goes into exile in ROTS. Not much to say, as we barely see the place.
Where the Empire is experimenting with Kyber Crystals for use with the Death Star in Rogue One. Jyn finds her father Galen here in Rogue One. I think this place looks pretty cool, but it feels a little too similar to Kamino.
I know everyone thinks this place - the home world of the Sith introduced TROS - is so cool, but I can’t dissociate it in my mind from the silly resurrection of Palpatine. Nonetheless, it does look visually memorable.
Where Han/Rey/Finn go to talk to Man Kanata, and the First Order attacks them and kidnaps Rey. It’s very scenic and pretty, but it feels a bit to close to Endor, if Endor had water.
Where Luke trains Rey in TLJ. Absolutely gorgeous - and it should be, having been shot in Ireland.
The Wookie planet, as seen in ROTS. It is visually very memorable, but it doesn’t have much screen time and not much happens there.
Ajan Kloss got a lot of criticism for being an Endor retread, but I don’t fully see it. Endor was forest. Ajan Kloss is a jungle. I enjoyed Rey’s training scenes there, and though it was divisive, I also enjoyed the flashback of Leia’s training with Luke that occurred here. It’s novel because we hadn’t really seen a jungle planet before, and a fair amount of time is spent there.
A frigid, occupied planet run by criminals and gangs when the First Order isn’t looking, this is one of the more interesting worlds introduced in the ST.
The dry, rocky planet with sinkholes and water in its underbelly that Obi-wan finds General Grevious on in ROTS. Particularly memorable for its role in Order 66.
This is this high mainly because I think the Rey/Kylo/Finn duel is the most memorable lightsaber duel in the ST for me. We’ve had forest planets before, and we’ve had ice/snow planets before, but we hadn’t seen snow-covered forests before, and I just think it looked really cool with the lightsabers lit up against it, even if the duel doesn’t carry the emotional heft of others. It’s also the location of Han Solo’s death.
The Separatists’ base of operations in AOTC. Mainly notable for the arena battle and the Dooku/Anakin/Obi-wan duel. The arena - like a nod to the Roman Colosseum - is quite memorable, but the arena battle on the whole is one of the more underwhelming climaxes in SW, imo, so I can’t put it higher.
The desert planet housing the ancient holy city seen in Rogue One. I found Jedha striking from the first time I saw Rogue One. Saw Gerrera and his rebels, the Kyber Crystals and the Temple Of The Kyber, the monks, just the idea of a holy city in the galaxy far, far away is fascinating.
The site of the final battle of Rogue One. Look, this is simple for me. It looks gorgeous - a beach planet! - the battle is amazing, and watching Jyn and Andor wait for their deaths at the end is one of the most emotionally affecting moments in SW, imo.
Bare with me. This is by far the most memorable world introduced in the ST. Everybody remembers it, and its name, from TLJ. Mostly because everyone was complaining about it.
Here’s the thing - the Canto Bight subplot felt like a total non-sequitur in the movie, it added little to the main story and could have been cut out completely without hurting anything. It dragged in the context of the movie. But it actually is a really interesting world. Casinos? High-rollers and mercenaries? People who don’t care who wins between good and evil as long as they profit? You could build a whole D+ series around this place, and it could end up being a good show.
It’s just that in TLJ, it felt like you were watching a different movie when those scenes came up.
As the planet where the Clones are created, with it’s dark atmosphere, oceanic makeup, and alien-like inhabitants, I find it highly memorable.
Site of the searched-for Rebel base in ANH and site of the Battle of Yavin and Death Star Trench run. It seen as the rebels prepare to take on the Death Star, and again afterwards, as Leia presents Luke and Han with medals. It is seen in even more detail in Rogue One, as the rebels are operating out of it.
The home planet of Bail Organa, Princess Leia(by adoption), and also Cara Dune from the Mandalorian. Although it is seen from a distance as it is destroyed in ANH, and then seen briefly at the end of ROTS and Rogue One, it is not seen in detail until the OWK series, where we get to see Bail and his wife and the young Leia in their home. Still, it is one of the oldest worlds in the franchise, and one of the most well-known.
The site of the Battle Of Heroes in ROTS, a fiery, hell evoking lava planet where Anakin ends up burning until Vader is what remains. His fortress is built there, and we see it in Vader’s Rogue One cameo.
The home planet of both Padme, mother of Luke and Leia, and Palpatine, Supreme Chancellor and future Emperor. I’ve always loved Naboo - the scenery, the costumes(Amidala and otherwise), the palaces, the titular starfighters, even the whole symbiotic relationship with the Gungans is interesting even if the Gungans themselves are annoying(I actually really dig their underwater city on a visual level).
It is also the site of the Duel Of The Fates and Anakin/Padme’s love story(however flawed it is).
First seen in the Thrawn Trilogy during New Republic times, then again in Shadows Of The Empire in Empire times as the location of Xizor’s Palace and the capital of the Galactic Empire, it is in some ways the central location of the prequel trilogy as the capital of the Old Republic.
Featuring locations like the Jedi Temple, the senate chamber, the Jedi library, senators’ offices, Padme’s apartment, and a spaceport, it essentially tells the story of how the Old Republic functioned. In addition to all of that, the speeder chase in AOTC does a good job of painting a picture of the underbelly of the city-planet, with its assassins, seedy bars, and neon signs.
Home of the Ewoks, site of the speeder bike chase, the second Death Star, the Battle of Endor, Luke v Vader II, Anakin’s death, Palpatine’s apparent death, and the yubnub celebration including force ghosts. The Empire ended here. A different moon was returned to in TROS for nostalgia.
Is there a planet more associated with The Force, or with Yoda?
A city in the clouds is a victory in premise. It looks awesome. But beyond that, it’s where Luke v Vader I happens; where “No. I am your father” happens. It’s where “I have altered the deal, prey I don’t alter it further” happens. It’s where carbonite happens. It’s where “I love you/I know” happens. And it’s where we meet Lando. Quite simply, it is the setting for one of the most famous third acts in cinema history.
Completely iconic. That first half hour of ESB might be the best half hour of SW. The snow and ice, echo base, the wampas, the tauntauns, and then add the imperial walkers - AT-STs and AT-ATs - and probe droids. I mean, how many video games did it inspire?
The home planet of the Skywalkers, seen in ANH, ROTJ, TPM, AOTC, the very end of ROTS, the very end of TROS, an episode or two of The Mandalorian, and the OWK series. Boasting binary suns and locales such as the Lars homestead, Mos Eisley Spaceport, Jabba’s Palace, the sarlaac pit, the pod racing track, and more, this outer rim backwater planet, technically outside the purview of the Republic and The Empire, was never supposed to matter, but it is one of the most famous fantasy worlds in all media.
“For my ally is the Force, and a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us.” - Yoda
I hate Messianic prophecies in general, or the very idea of a Messiah, because it encourages the idea that all hope for the future is dependent on one dude, instead of like, the group effort that is required in real life.
Granted, Star Wars doesn’t incorporate a true Messiah into the mythology. Vader is more like a very round-about Messiah who only saves the Universe after he fucks over the entire Universe. So it’s at least a twist on the idea of a Messiah, kind of like Dune. But I still don’t like it, because it shrinks the Universe by elevating one guy to cosmic significance. At one point, Luke was just a random farmboy and Vader was just a cyborg SS officer carrying out the will of his government. There was a backstory intertwining the two of them, but it was personal, not a matter of cosmic importance.
Nothing is really a “true Messiah” because the Messiah is from Judaism, and (except for Messianic Jews) believe that the Messiah hasn’t come yet. The actual Messiah according to Christianity was of course Jesus Christ, who was a perfect being and the only possible person who could save humanity from sin and death. Jesus specifically rejected the people who wanted him to be like the conquering hero Messiah we have in fiction. He repeatedly told everyone to repent and get their own lives in order, and didn’t fulfill their fantasies of overthrowing the Romans or making himself king in a mortal sense.
There aren’t any messiahs, chosen ones, etc. in fiction who are anything close to that. It’s just a phrase people throw around like destiny or prophecy. The concept has a very specific real world context that often gets tossed out the window.
I mean, I think most people would interpret the word “Messiah” simply to refer generically to the idea of a “Chosen One” who is prophesied to appear at some designated time and play a pivotal role in overthrowing an oppressor. The Jewish concept in the OT (Old Testament, not Original Trilogy 😉) is the origin of the idea, yes, and is also a straightforward implementation of the concept, even though mainstream Judaism teaches the Messiah’s coming is a future event. The concept obviously morphed over the years, going from a prophesied savior from the Romans in the first century modeled after the O.G. King David (with various historical claimants appearing in the first century and failing badly) to various Rabbinical reinterpretations over the years.
The Christian Messiah is a Rian Johnson style “twist” on the original Jewish Messiah concept. Paul of Tarsus was like: “Oh, you thought your Messiah would come and overthrow the Romans with his laser sword? Try again, idiots. Instead, your Messiah will appear briefly and provide free healthcare to a few random people, deliver some cool parables and magic tricks, then get arrested and killed, but then rise from the grave, thus recontextualizing all Old Testament Messianic prophecy as part of an eschatological continuum beginning with Original Sin and culminating in a “second coming” event, where the Messiah will return upgraded with new super-powers and kick lots of ass, rather than a boring Maccabee-style Jewish Warrior King who implausibly defeats Tiberius Caesar. Expectations subverted.”
If you are a Christian, it isn’t a twist on the concept. It’s the original concept that the Jews didn’t understand because they weren’t really paying attention to the prophecies.
Yeah, I understand that. Stuff like Isaiah 53 and all that. I wouldn’t say the Jews weren’t paying attention - I mean, the Rabbis analyzed all this stuff for a living for thousands of years. They just interpreted most of the Messianic prophecies as referring to the nation of Israel collectively, or to an unknown future descendant of David, rather than the specific Messiah from Nazareth named Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish interpretation is at least more straightforward in the sense that it assumes a straightforward political coup/revolution and doesn’t require the Messiah to first die, rise from the dead, then come back to finish the job after an indeterminate number of centuries (and also doesn’t associate the Messiah with an entirely new covenant doing away with the old Laws or at least “spiritualizing” their interpretation - although some Biblical prophecies hint at this). On the other hand, the Jewish interpretation arguably doesn’t handle certain Biblical prophecies as well, mostly the ones presumably describing a Messianic figure as somebody who is meek and must suffer for the sins of Israel.
Anyway, in popular culture, a Messiah is a way more flexible concept and usually reduces to a generic “Chosen One” like in the Matrix or Harry Potter.
- Canto Bight
Bare with me. This is by far the most memorable world introduced in the ST. Everybody remembers it, and its name, from TLJ. Mostly because everyone was complaining about it.
I agree. I hate TLJ, but the idea of a sci-fi Casino is pretty cool. It could have worked in a different context. I think one of the Thrawn books or at least something in the EU had a similar concept, except it was more like a sci-fi luxury cruiseliner in space, with gambling (unless I’m totally remembering this incorrectly).
I hate Messianic prophecies in general, or the very idea of a Messiah, because it encourages the idea that all hope for the future is dependent on one dude, instead of like, the group effort that is required in real life.
Granted, Star Wars doesn’t incorporate a true Messiah into the mythology. Vader is more like a very round-about Messiah who only saves the Universe after he fucks over the entire Universe. So it’s at least a twist on the idea of a Messiah, kind of like Dune. But I still don’t like it, because it shrinks the Universe by elevating one guy to cosmic significance. At one point, Luke was just a random farmboy and Vader was just a cyborg SS officer carrying out the will of his government. There was a backstory intertwining the two of them, but it was personal, not a matter of cosmic importance.
Nothing is really a “true Messiah” because the Messiah is from Judaism, and (except for Messianic Jews) believe that the Messiah hasn’t come yet. The actual Messiah according to Christianity was of course Jesus Christ, who was a perfect being and the only possible person who could save humanity from sin and death. Jesus specifically rejected the people who wanted him to be like the conquering hero Messiah we have in fiction. He repeatedly told everyone to repent and get their own lives in order, and didn’t fulfill their fantasies of overthrowing the Romans or making himself king in a mortal sense.
There aren’t any messiahs, chosen ones, etc. in fiction who are anything close to that. It’s just a phrase people throw around like destiny or prophecy. The concept has a very specific real world context that often gets tossed out the window.
I mean, I think most people would interpret the word “Messiah” simply to refer generically to the idea of a “Chosen One” who is prophesied to appear at some designated time and play a pivotal role in overthrowing an oppressor. The Jewish concept in the OT (Old Testament, not Original Trilogy 😉) is the origin of the idea, yes, and is also a straightforward implementation of the concept, even though mainstream Judaism teaches the Messiah’s coming is a future event. The concept obviously morphed over the years, going from a prophesied savior from the Romans in the first century modeled after the O.G. King David (with various historical claimants appearing in the first century and failing badly) to various Rabbinical reinterpretations over the years.
The Christian Messiah is a Rian Johnson style “twist” on the original Jewish Messiah concept. Paul of Tarsus was like: “Oh, you thought your Messiah would come and overthrow the Romans with his laser sword? Try again, idiots. Instead, your Messiah will appear briefly and provide free healthcare to a few random people, deliver some cool parables and magic tricks, then get arrested and killed, but then rise from the grave, thus recontextualizing all Old Testament Messianic prophecy as part of an eschatological continuum beginning with Original Sin and culminating in a “second coming” event, where the Messiah will return upgraded with new super-powers and kick lots of ass, rather than a boring Maccabee-style Jewish Warrior King who implausibly defeats Tiberius Caesar. Expectations subverted.”
If you are a Christian, it isn’t a twist on the concept. It’s the original concept that the Jews didn’t understand because they weren’t really paying attention to the prophecies.
Yeah, I understand that. Stuff like Isaiah 53 and all that. I wouldn’t say the Jews weren’t paying attention - I mean, the Rabbis analyzed all this stuff for a living for thousands of years. They just interpreted most of the Messianic prophecies as referring to the nation of Israel collectively, or to an unknown future descendant of David, rather than the specific Messiah from Nazareth named Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish interpretation is at least more straightforward in the sense that it assumes a straightforward political coup/revolution and doesn’t require the Messiah to first die, rise from the dead, then come back to finish the job after an indeterminate number of centuries (and also doesn’t associate the Messiah with an entirely new covenant doing away with the old Laws or at least “spiritualizing” their interpretation - although some Biblical prophecies hint at this). On the other hand, the Jewish interpretation arguably doesn’t handle certain Biblical prophecies as well, mostly the ones presumably describing a Messianic figure as somebody who is meek and must suffer for the sins of Israel.
Anyway, in popular culture, a Messiah is a way more flexible concept and usually reduces to a generic “Chosen One” like in the Matrix or Harry Potter.
The professional rabbis didn’t exist until after the return from Babylon around 500 BC. Before that there were actual prophets, and Jesus refers to them murdering a prophet named Zacharias some time in the interim before the New Testament.
That’s why they call it a Chosen One and not a Messiah. Messiah is a very particular cultural concept and really the only other big place you would find it is in Dune. Dune also plays fast and loose with various other religious concepts, mainly from Islam, but it’s done well and it makes sense given that it’s a mishmash of cultural elements they inherited from 10,000 years of human history.
I hate Messianic prophecies in general, or the very idea of a Messiah, because it encourages the idea that all hope for the future is dependent on one dude, instead of like, the group effort that is required in real life.
Granted, Star Wars doesn’t incorporate a true Messiah into the mythology. Vader is more like a very round-about Messiah who only saves the Universe after he fucks over the entire Universe. So it’s at least a twist on the idea of a Messiah, kind of like Dune. But I still don’t like it, because it shrinks the Universe by elevating one guy to cosmic significance. At one point, Luke was just a random farmboy and Vader was just a cyborg SS officer carrying out the will of his government. There was a backstory intertwining the two of them, but it was personal, not a matter of cosmic importance.
Nothing is really a “true Messiah” because the Messiah is from Judaism, and (except for Messianic Jews) believe that the Messiah hasn’t come yet. The actual Messiah according to Christianity was of course Jesus Christ, who was a perfect being and the only possible person who could save humanity from sin and death. Jesus specifically rejected the people who wanted him to be like the conquering hero Messiah we have in fiction. He repeatedly told everyone to repent and get their own lives in order, and didn’t fulfill their fantasies of overthrowing the Romans or making himself king in a mortal sense.
There aren’t any messiahs, chosen ones, etc. in fiction who are anything close to that. It’s just a phrase people throw around like destiny or prophecy. The concept has a very specific real world context that often gets tossed out the window.
I mean, I think most people would interpret the word “Messiah” simply to refer generically to the idea of a “Chosen One” who is prophesied to appear at some designated time and play a pivotal role in overthrowing an oppressor. The Jewish concept in the OT (Old Testament, not Original Trilogy 😉) is the origin of the idea, yes, and is also a straightforward implementation of the concept, even though mainstream Judaism teaches the Messiah’s coming is a future event. The concept obviously morphed over the years, going from a prophesied savior from the Romans in the first century modeled after the O.G. King David (with various historical claimants appearing in the first century and failing badly) to various Rabbinical reinterpretations over the years.
The Christian Messiah is a Rian Johnson style “twist” on the original Jewish Messiah concept. Paul of Tarsus was like: “Oh, you thought your Messiah would come and overthrow the Romans with his laser sword? Try again, idiots. Instead, your Messiah will appear briefly and provide free healthcare to a few random people, deliver some cool parables and magic tricks, then get arrested and killed, but then rise from the grave, thus recontextualizing all Old Testament Messianic prophecy as part of an eschatological continuum beginning with Original Sin and culminating in a “second coming” event, where the Messiah will return upgraded with new super-powers and kick lots of ass, rather than a boring Maccabee-style Jewish Warrior King who implausibly defeats Tiberius Caesar. Expectations subverted.”
If you are a Christian, it isn’t a twist on the concept. It’s the original concept that the Jews didn’t understand because they weren’t really paying attention to the prophecies.
Yeah, I understand that. Stuff like Isaiah 53 and all that. I wouldn’t say the Jews weren’t paying attention - I mean, the Rabbis analyzed all this stuff for a living for thousands of years. They just interpreted most of the Messianic prophecies as referring to the nation of Israel collectively, or to an unknown future descendant of David, rather than the specific Messiah from Nazareth named Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish interpretation is at least more straightforward in the sense that it assumes a straightforward political coup/revolution and doesn’t require the Messiah to first die, rise from the dead, then come back to finish the job after an indeterminate number of centuries (and also doesn’t associate the Messiah with an entirely new covenant doing away with the old Laws or at least “spiritualizing” their interpretation - although some Biblical prophecies hint at this). On the other hand, the Jewish interpretation arguably doesn’t handle certain Biblical prophecies as well, mostly the ones presumably describing a Messianic figure as somebody who is meek and must suffer for the sins of Israel.
Anyway, in popular culture, a Messiah is a way more flexible concept and usually reduces to a generic “Chosen One” like in the Matrix or Harry Potter.
The professional rabbis didn’t exist until after the return from Babylon around 500 BC. Before that there were actual prophets, and Jesus refers to them murdering a prophet named Zacharias some time in the interim before the New Testament.
Yeah but those professional rabbis had already been around for centuries by the time Jesus lived, so presumably they already had fairly well-developed ideas about how to identify the Messiah when he finally arrives. Although, obviously, there were different schools of thought (Pharisee vs. Sadducee vs. Essene, etc.) about all this. According to the Book of Acts, a high-ranking Sanhedrin member even entertained the possibility that Jesus was actually legitimately the Messiah.
But arguably, the very idea of a Messiah would be mostly meaningless until at least the 6th century BC when the inhabitants of Judea were conquered and exiled to Babylon and thereafter forced to live under foreign rule. Until that point, the nation of Israel (or at least the Southernmost two tribes) had been independent for centuries, so there would be nothing to be “saved from” that would cause the idea of a Messiah to emerge.
That’s why they call it a Chosen One and not a Messiah. Messiah is a very particular cultural concept and really the only other big place you would find it is in Dune. Dune also plays fast and loose with various other religious concepts, mainly from Islam, but it’s done well and it makes sense given that it’s a mishmash of cultural elements they inherited from 10,000 years of human history.
IIRC, the actual original meaning of Messiah was just any King, any “anointed one” literally, and was used in the Old Testament to refer to “ordinary” historical kings like David’s friend-turned-enemy Saul, and even to refer to some pagan rulers like Cyrus the Great. Come to think of it, I don’t remember off hand if any of the Old Testament prophecies actually even use the word “Messiah” - but I haven’t studied this stuff for a while, so I might be wrong. I remember at least that some of the more obviously Messianic prophecies (in the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.) used more obscure terminology like “Son of Man” (also a later epithet for Jesus which likely just meant something like “a normal human” in Hebrew) to refer to the Messiah - but the gist of all these prophecies was basically “your life sucks now because a foreign power rules over you, and it’s your fault because you worshiped Baal and other pagan gods, but don’t worry because some day you’ll return home and your country and way of life will be restored”.
Fast forward to the 1st century AD when Jesus lived, and it seems the Pharisees (and also Jesus’ own disciples) had some pretty well-developed ideas about what a Jewish Messiah should bring to the table, and presumably it involved (at the very least) overthrowing the Roman occupation in Judea. They even already had a historical model to base this on: the model of Judas and Simon Maccabee who successfully overthrew a previous occupying foreign imperial power and gained independence for Israel about 200 years before Jesus was born.
This thread has maybe gone off topic
Star Wars was a film from the late 1970s.
I hate Messianic prophecies in general, or the very idea of a Messiah, because it encourages the idea that all hope for the future is dependent on one dude, instead of like, the group effort that is required in real life.
Granted, Star Wars doesn’t incorporate a true Messiah into the mythology. Vader is more like a very round-about Messiah who only saves the Universe after he fucks over the entire Universe. So it’s at least a twist on the idea of a Messiah, kind of like Dune. But I still don’t like it, because it shrinks the Universe by elevating one guy to cosmic significance. At one point, Luke was just a random farmboy and Vader was just a cyborg SS officer carrying out the will of his government. There was a backstory intertwining the two of them, but it was personal, not a matter of cosmic importance.
Nothing is really a “true Messiah” because the Messiah is from Judaism, and (except for Messianic Jews) believe that the Messiah hasn’t come yet. The actual Messiah according to Christianity was of course Jesus Christ, who was a perfect being and the only possible person who could save humanity from sin and death. Jesus specifically rejected the people who wanted him to be like the conquering hero Messiah we have in fiction. He repeatedly told everyone to repent and get their own lives in order, and didn’t fulfill their fantasies of overthrowing the Romans or making himself king in a mortal sense.
There aren’t any messiahs, chosen ones, etc. in fiction who are anything close to that. It’s just a phrase people throw around like destiny or prophecy. The concept has a very specific real world context that often gets tossed out the window.
I mean, I think most people would interpret the word “Messiah” simply to refer generically to the idea of a “Chosen One” who is prophesied to appear at some designated time and play a pivotal role in overthrowing an oppressor. The Jewish concept in the OT (Old Testament, not Original Trilogy 😉) is the origin of the idea, yes, and is also a straightforward implementation of the concept, even though mainstream Judaism teaches the Messiah’s coming is a future event. The concept obviously morphed over the years, going from a prophesied savior from the Romans in the first century modeled after the O.G. King David (with various historical claimants appearing in the first century and failing badly) to various Rabbinical reinterpretations over the years.
The Christian Messiah is a Rian Johnson style “twist” on the original Jewish Messiah concept. Paul of Tarsus was like: “Oh, you thought your Messiah would come and overthrow the Romans with his laser sword? Try again, idiots. Instead, your Messiah will appear briefly and provide free healthcare to a few random people, deliver some cool parables and magic tricks, then get arrested and killed, but then rise from the grave, thus recontextualizing all Old Testament Messianic prophecy as part of an eschatological continuum beginning with Original Sin and culminating in a “second coming” event, where the Messiah will return upgraded with new super-powers and kick lots of ass, rather than a boring Maccabee-style Jewish Warrior King who implausibly defeats Tiberius Caesar. Expectations subverted.”
If you are a Christian, it isn’t a twist on the concept. It’s the original concept that the Jews didn’t understand because they weren’t really paying attention to the prophecies.
Yeah, I understand that. Stuff like Isaiah 53 and all that. I wouldn’t say the Jews weren’t paying attention - I mean, the Rabbis analyzed all this stuff for a living for thousands of years. They just interpreted most of the Messianic prophecies as referring to the nation of Israel collectively, or to an unknown future descendant of David, rather than the specific Messiah from Nazareth named Jesus/Yeshua. The Jewish interpretation is at least more straightforward in the sense that it assumes a straightforward political coup/revolution and doesn’t require the Messiah to first die, rise from the dead, then come back to finish the job after an indeterminate number of centuries (and also doesn’t associate the Messiah with an entirely new covenant doing away with the old Laws or at least “spiritualizing” their interpretation - although some Biblical prophecies hint at this). On the other hand, the Jewish interpretation arguably doesn’t handle certain Biblical prophecies as well, mostly the ones presumably describing a Messianic figure as somebody who is meek and must suffer for the sins of Israel.
Anyway, in popular culture, a Messiah is a way more flexible concept and usually reduces to a generic “Chosen One” like in the Matrix or Harry Potter.
The professional rabbis didn’t exist until after the return from Babylon around 500 BC. Before that there were actual prophets, and Jesus refers to them murdering a prophet named Zacharias some time in the interim before the New Testament.
Yeah but those professional rabbis had already been around for centuries by the time Jesus lived, so presumably they already had fairly well-developed ideas about how to identify the Messiah when he finally arrives. Although, obviously, there were different schools of thought (Pharisee vs. Sadducee vs. Essene, etc.) about all this. According to the Book of Acts, a high-ranking Sanhedrin member even entertained the possibility that Jesus was actually legitimately the Messiah.
But arguably, the very idea of a Messiah would be mostly meaningless until at least the 6th century BC when the inhabitants of Judea were conquered and exiled to Babylon and thereafter forced to live under foreign rule. Until that point, the nation of Israel (or at least the Southernmost two tribes) had been independent for centuries, so there would be nothing to be “saved from” that would cause the idea of a Messiah to emerge.
That’s why they call it a Chosen One and not a Messiah. Messiah is a very particular cultural concept and really the only other big place you would find it is in Dune. Dune also plays fast and loose with various other religious concepts, mainly from Islam, but it’s done well and it makes sense given that it’s a mishmash of cultural elements they inherited from 10,000 years of human history.
IIRC, the actual original meaning of Messiah was just any King, any “anointed one” literally, and was used in the Old Testament to refer to “ordinary” historical kings like David’s friend-turned-enemy Saul, and even to refer to some pagan rulers like Cyrus the Great. Come to think of it, I don’t remember off hand if any of the Old Testament prophecies actually even use the word “Messiah” - but I haven’t studied this stuff for a while, so I might be wrong. I remember at least that some of the more obviously Messianic prophecies (in the books of Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.) used more obscure terminology like “Son of Man” (also a later epithet for Jesus which likely just meant something like “a normal human” in Hebrew) to refer to the Messiah - but the gist of all these prophecies was basically “your life sucks now because a foreign power rules over you, and it’s your fault because you worshiped Baal and other pagan gods, but don’t worry because some day you’ll return home and your country and way of life will be restored”.
Fast forward to the 1st century AD when Jesus lived, and it seems the Pharisees (and also Jesus’ own disciples) had some pretty well-developed ideas about what a Jewish Messiah should bring to the table, and presumably it involved (at the very least) overthrowing the Roman occupation in Judea. They even already had a historical model to base this on: the model of Judas and Simon Maccabee who successfully overthrew a previous occupying foreign imperial power and gained independence for Israel about 200 years before Jesus was born.
Okay but you said “thousands of years,” which is different from a few centuries. Everything they came up with was based on prophecies, like Isaiah’s. Most of those prophecies also tell Israel that they’re going to get wrecked by foreign powers and have to repent and return, so the Messiah would not be “meaningless” just because it hasn’t happened yet. You also mentioned the southernmost two tribes were still there like the loss of 10 tribes and the entire northern kingdom to Assyria isn’t a massive deal.
I don’t know that the exact word is used in the Old Testament that we have, but it is in the apocrypha and the Dead Sea Scrolls. The concept is clearly there though.
You don’t need to tell me about all this stuff, I already know. I’m not trying to be vain or anything but you’re just repeating what I’ve already said in different words. Messiah was a Jewish cultural idea, there were different interpretations of what it meant, and if you’re Christian you hold that some of those interpretations were incorrect or incomplete.
Messiah was not intended to be a general Chosen One sort of character category to be dropped into media hundreds of years later, so your original criticism that it’s all about one guy saving everyone with no one else taking any effort doesn’t make sense. If the messiah was a political messiah coming to free people from the Romans, they would still need to take part in the revolution, and if the messiah was a spiritual leader or some mixture of both, people would still need to repent and get their act together.
This thread has maybe gone off topic
It’s a topic related to the Chosen One concept in the prequels.
And does it really matter? Barely anyone posts on this forum.
Heh. I always enjoy a good discussion on early Christianity (emphasis on “good”).
Gods for some, miniature libertarian socialist flags for others.