Filmmaker and New Yorker film critic Richard Brody's thoughts on the prequels. — Page 12

TV’s Frink said:

TV’s Frink said:

MalàStrana said:

TV’s Frink said:

imperialscum said:

TV’s Frink said:

And I’m not religious. So what am I?

You are an American.

That’s not a race.

You can be semitic, or armenian, or turkish, or slavs. It’s even possible you can be latin or nordic. I don’t know your genealogy, so please send me a blood sample so I can run a few tests. I’m not sure you really are jewish, regarding your claimed higher IQ (nice article you’ve posted by the way, not racist at all…).

1. Your opinion of my “Jewishness” is irrelevant.
2. I claimed a higher IQ? You must be confusing me with this guy.
3. I will admit to only skimming the article, I was making reference to the genetic study. I’m curious what is racist about it, however, so perhaps you’d like to elaborate.
4. I’m still waiting for you to explain why ANY of this is relevant to the question of TPM being full of stereotypes.

Still waiting…

Really ? Dude it’s getting late here and the C1 quarterfinals are long over now, so quickly:

1. I don’t care as a matter of fact of your “jewishness”: you’re the one who talked about it, so don’t if it’s just a fact dropping that does not add anything important to the discussion. Your personal life is personal, don’t share it.

2. well, ok (I was quoting the article as a matter of fact, “being sarcastic”).

3. it might not be (i’ll read it entirely tomorrow), I’ll check the methodology and the discussion if I have the time.

4. why did you talk about Israel and jewish stereotypes in the first place if Watto’s alleged stereotypes have nothing to do with Israel or jewish ? As for Nute Gunray I never thought the guys was an asian space-dude who carries blatant racist stereotypes (but he’s racist against gungans, or “specists” to be acurate). I simply don’t see it. Would Clint say to Nute “Get off my lawn” ? You don’t agree ? Oh, that’s new ! First time ever we don’t agree on something. It was to happen some day I guess.

My final message in this thread. I leave you the floor to continue your crusade…

edit: tell your padawan is not up to the task. By far…

MalàStrana said:

• there is no jewish race (nazis believed that, sionists still believe that, but this is bullshit), so Watto can’t be a jewish racial stereotype ;

Being a non-proselytising faith being Jewish is an ethnic descriptor. They are semitic people and a few rare examples aside share signifying genetic markers with other semitic people like Arabs (this is true of even Jewish people of African origin).

• Israel is a country with jewish people, muslims people, North African immigrants of jewish religion and of semitic ancestry, and European immigrants of jewish religion but not of semitic ancestry; so I don’t quite see the point of talking about Israel here since this is not a “full” jewish country nor a “full” semitic country, and which does not represent any race or stereotype that could be found in TPM ;

The mix in Israel and the occupied Palestinian states are practically semitic in background.

• so Watto is, AT MOST, a semitic racial stereotype. Watto is a slaver and a bad guy, and he looks like a bad guy you could find in North Africa/Middle East (or in the Steptoe/Sanford reference provided by yotsuya). It’s not subtle (Jabba is a bad guy who looks like a bad guy) but I fail to see why this would be racist/antisemite.

The performance is essentially a cartoon of Alec Guiness doing Fagin. Anakin is Oliver already.

MalàStrana said:
edit: tell your padawan is not up to the task. By far…

I don’t even know what that means

TV’s Frink said:

Against my better judgement…

MalàStrana said:

TV’s Frink said:
There’s no Israel on Tatooine but Watto is still a racial stereotype.

Oh God… where do I begin ? Let’s give it a try :

• there is no jewish race (nazis believed that, sionists still believe that, but this is bullshit), so Watto can’t be a jewish racial stereotype ;

http://chronicle.com/article/The-Chosen-Genes/131481/

But put that aside for a moment. If I’m Jewish, but I’m not religious, what does that mean?

• Israel is a country with jewish people, muslims people, North African immigrants of jewish religion and of semitic ancestry, and European immigrants of jewish religion but not of semitic ancestry; so I don’t quite see the point of talking about Israel here since this is not a “full” jewish country nor a “full” semitic country, and which does not represent any race or stereotype that could be found in TPM ;

“Israel” was shorthand for “country with a lot of Jewish people.” Your point is irrelevant anyway, as my point was that it is irrelevant to state there aren’t any Asian stereotypes in TPM because only the Asian actors are Asian. Earth does not exist in the Star Wars universe.

• so Watto is, AT MOST, a semitic racial stereotype. Watto is a slaver and a bad guy, and he looks like a bad guy you could find in North Africa/Middle East (or in the Steptoe/Sanford reference provided by yotsuya). It’s not subtle (Jabba is a bad guy who looks like a bad guy) but I fail to see why this would be racist/antisemite.

How is a Semitic racial stereotype better than a Jewish racial stereotype? You’re just splitting hairs.

Also, read this:

yotsuya said:
And Watto… seriously? Jewish? Why, because of the hat in Episode II… the Don Quixote metal hat? No, he is Steptoe/Sanford - a stereotypical junk dealer, not a Jewish knockoff. Just look at the pics of Steptoe - the long nose, the frequent unshaven appearance, the bad teeth, the narrow face. Watto doesn’t have a beard, he has stubble. There is a big difference. No, you reading more into this than there is. And there are plenty of people in this world who love money who aren’t Jewish, so claiming that has anything connection is really ridiculous, especially since it is just one of the many parallels Watto has with Steptoe and Sanford.

I read it. It’s ridiculous, just like everything else this person has posted on the subject. My favorite in that bit is “hey, Jews might love money, but other people do to, so it’s not a racial stereotype.” It fits right in with “the guy who played Jar Jar says it’s not a racial stereotype so it must not be” and “you can’t have an Asian stereotype if he’s too tall.”

Well, Jews and money is one of the oldest stereotypes around. And it is so not true. Look at Ivanho and Shakespeare vs. Fiddler on the Roof. Then look at Watto. Watto in Ep 2 is supposed to look more Jewish because of the hat and the beard… but it isn’t a beard, its whiskers showing how far he has fallen since TPM and the hat has more in common with Don Quixote than any piece of Jewish cultural haberdashery. I thought it looked like metal when I first saw it and I still think that. I actually thought it resembled a hat often worn by medieval catholic clergy (http://www.basilrathbone.net/films/robinhood/rh526.jpg). And I have to admit that when I think of Watto the only non-Star Wars person that comes to mind is Redd Foxx playing Fred Sanford, though he looks more like the original Steptoe.

And you mistake my small points for being final proof. The stereotype of an Asian is short. Just look at who they hired for Breakfast at Tiffany’s (a cringeworthy portion of an otherwise well made film). But then you closely examine the Nemoidian eyes (they really aren’t indicative of any human eye shape) their role in the movies (they are the bad guys but they have a trade franchise of the sort that is closer to OPEC than anything Asian - and if GL is supposed to be pulling from classic Hollywood you do not find Asians running powerful trade empires during that time). Then their is their accent. Totally not based on any Asian or fake Asian accent I’ve ever heard. And in fact, when you hear the actor playing Nute Gunray speak in his other major role in the PT, that actor delivers the lines of both parts similarly, with Nute’s dropped down an octive or so. So piece after piece when examined just destroys the idea that there was any intentional, accidental, or derived racial stereotyping in the Nemoidians.

And seriously, when you have an actor from the Caribbean who gets to make an iconic Star Wars role to make his own (much as Anthony Daniels did in ANH) and he ends up giving it a bit of Caribbean flavor (though it is far removed from any black stereotype found in Hollywood with unique speech patterns and a body replaced by CG) and he claims full responsibility for all the character traits, yet you blame GL for creating a racial stereotype. See, I can’t agree with that accusation. That is what I mean by what saying that what Ahmed Best says is good enough for me. And Anthony Daniels does not speak like C-3PO. He puts on the attitude of a prissy English butler (his own invention which worked so well that they had him redub the lines instead of another actor… and they tried many) and you can tell the difference in how he talks. Yet that character is safe from calls of stereotyping for doing pretty much the same thing Ahmed Best did.

Basically I don’t find the accusations fair. They are based on overly examining (and not doing the research to compare to real stereotypes) small points of a fictitious alien and then labeling the characters as racist caricatures and Lucas an unintentional racist (letting his love of the classic Hollywood era allow the old stereotypes to seep through).

And as someone else posted, you really have to be from the group being stereotyped to really be in a position to tell if it is offensive. Most of the people claiming it is offensive are from the same pool of White Americans as GL. Not really the group that should be leveling such a charge as that is the very group that has perpetuated these stereotypes.

The other topic in the above quote - about Israel - I don’t agree with. Israel is predominantly Jewish and is considered the Jewish state. There are many different slices of Jewish culture that are each very different but have many similarities (and to many outsiders they seem the same). It is also more of a culture than a religion as the religion is traditionally passed down in the family. Converts happen, but not that often.

MalàStrana said:

4. why did you talk about Israel and jewish stereotypes in the first place if Watto’s alleged stereotypes have nothing to do with Israel or jewish ?

MalàStrana said:

The only asian people we can see in the PT are actually asian people.

TV’s Frink said:

How is this in any way relevant? There’s no Israel on Tatooine but Watto is still a racial stereotype.

yotsuya said:

And as someone else posted, you really have to be from the group being stereotyped to really be in a position to tell if it is offensive. Most of the people claiming it is offensive are from the same pool of White Americans as GL. Not really the group that should be leveling such a charge as that is the very group that has perpetuated these stereotypes.

I’m Jewish, so do I now have your permission to find Watto’s portrayal offensive?

The argument that “Lucas is a white American therefore no other white American can have a different opinion on this” is pretty strange.

And as someone else posted, you really have to be from the group being stereotyped to really be in a position to tell if it is offensive.

That doesn’t exactly give white people carte blanche to screw around until someone calls them out, though.

Dek Rollins said:

TV’s Frink said:

The argument that “Lucas is a white American therefore no other white American can have a different opinion on this” is pretty strange.

That isn’t what he said at all. Did you read his post?

yotsuya said:
Most of the people claiming it is offensive are from the same pool of White Americans as GL. Not really the group that should be leveling such a charge as that is the very group that has perpetuated these stereotypes.

So which part didn’t I understand?

Just because I’m of the same group (“white Americans”) that perpetuated the stereotype, I can’t recognize when the stereotype is applied?

What am I misunderstanding?

I still don’t see how I’ve misrepresented that point, and if I have it’s unintended so save your immaturity claims for someone it actually applies to.

So it turns out I’m currently about 40 minutes away from imperialscum. 😛

imperialscum said:
Well I am in science/research. While Japanese bureaucracy is very strict and sometimes annoying, on the other hand it makes everything run smoothly and make people follow the rules I guess. I could set my clock based on the bus stop (let alone train). Also streets are completely clean, despite literally no trash cans, as people follow the rules and take their thrash home. I would say the annoying part is by far overshadowed by all the benefits and nice aspects. Anyway bottom line is, I absolutely love almost everything about Japan.

Oh yeah, definitely. Did you see the stuff on the news last year about how the Japanese section at the World Cup was always free of garbage after a game?

Interesting that you think the bureaucracy helps keep things running smoothly, as most of the Japanese and ex-pats I know think the opposite (everything takes forever). I’m going to guess that it probably has to do with the work environment, and that scientific research is already heavily regulated no matter what country you live in, but it may be that you just see it differently, which is great. I’ll just say that the movie Brazil hits closer to home after having to deal with that stuff.

imperialscum said:
As for Nemodians, they don’t seem much of bureaucrats to me. After all, their main thing in TPM is breaking the rules.

I can see that. Maybe it’s because they’re so subservient to Palpatine that I think of them like I do, but that’s sort of typical underling behavior. As I said before, I do think they resemble Japanese in a lot of ways, but it was probably unintentional. I will also fully admit that I haven’t given Ep 1 much thought since seeing it in the theater, so I might not be remembering accurately.

I asked some friends out here if they saw the Rogue One trailer and mentioned my recent intoxicated marathon viewing of the PT, and one dude immediately brought up the similarities to Japanese people (he’s lived in Japan for 12 years), so it’s KIND OF interesting how some see it and some don’t (but only kind of, since we’re talking about Nemoidians).

Okay, I just watched a youtube clip of a bunch of Nute Gunray scenes and I’m sorry to the people who don’t agree, but I very much hear a similarity. Not really with the other Nemoidians, though, so it’s probably just how the actor did it. “What is. Going on. Down there?” uuuugh

yotsuya said:
And yes, I do believe that if you are so insistent that the Nemoidians sound Asian that you have an issue

This is way too much of an assumption. You cannot possibly judge a person’s beliefs through an internet conversation. I can only speak for myself, but you don’t know anything about my life experiences, outlook, family, etc. and I find that argument to be passive aggressive and a bit offensive.

(But I will agree that if you think they sound “Asian” that you do indeed have an issue. I think Nute sounds Japanese)

I will again insist that I only take real issue with things that help perpetuate a stereotype. I have had so many horrible questions asked to me about life in Japan, but none of them were because of these goofy alien guys. I’m much more offended at Jar Jar, Watto, and Nute Gunray being horrible characters (but Gunray is charmingly stupid after watching that clip). 😛 Same goes the other way, as I have been on the receiving end of some shitty discriminating behavior in Japan, I think I’ve become a reasonable judge of the types of things that influence people’s perceptions of a culture.

John Doom said:I know a Japanese. It may not be statistically significant, but I may try asking him his opinion on this subject.

Is this person a close friend of yours? Is this person a Japanese citizen living abroad? I would advise a little caution, as even well-meaning questions can rub people the wrong way. I’ve had random co-workers and acquaintances who’ve never talked to me before ask me stuff since I’m the token white guy, and that stuff can get obnoxious after years and years (it was usually dependent on my mood). When living in America, my ex-wife would get a little upset when asked a question like that. I don’t speak for everybody, though.

I would also not say “A Japanese” which, while possibly just an ESL thing, sounds kind of odd.

My ex holds the opinion of, “If you think it might be offensive to me, don’t ask me about it.”

joefavs said:

I am forever baffled by the amount of people who are willing to take Lucas to task for absolutely everything except for the racial insensitivity. We all agree on a thousand other ways he fucked up making the prequels, why is this one so hard to swallow?

Also, this “takes one to know one” idea I’ve seen come up a few times that anyone who detects racism in these things must be a racist themselves (“Nemoidians only seem like Asian stereotypes to you because that must be how you personally see Asians”) might just be the stupidest and most wrongheaded thing I’ve ever seen here, which is really saying something.

A close second is “This one black/Asian/Jewish/etc. guy doesn’t have a problem with it, so all other criticism isn’t valid.”

I was kinda hoping the argument would end with this comment. Guess not…

Hope for the best, expect the worst.

TV’s Frink said:
http://chronicle.com/article/The-Chosen-Genes/131481/

But again, so what? More hair splitting. Ethnically motivated stereotypes are somehow better than racially motivated ones?

hoo boy a chosen one of the chosen people accuses others of racism

so anyway, regarding the original topic,

“A New Hope” at least had the merit of coming first—it had the element of surprise—along with a comically flat direction that appeared to be a parody of the mediocre serials on which it was based. “Empire” and “Jedi” had nothing parodistic; their absurd earnestness and the bombastic banality of their direction (by Irvin Kershner and Richard Marquand, respectively) are a perfect match for the oppressive, hectoring John Williams scores that accompanied them."

after reading this in OP’s link, I stopped reading the article. Saying Empire was banally directed and that John Williams’ scores are bad basically gives you the prefect picture of the character writing this article in the first place, a moron with no idea about film making or music, who has absolutely no business being a critic of either.

John Doom said:

TV’s Frink said:

I would also not say “A Japanese” which, while possibly just an ESL thing, sounds kind of odd.

What should have I said instead?

“A Japanese person.”

Like I said, I think it’s probably just a language thing, but it could come off very odd.

John Doom said:

zaknaberrnon said:

after reading this in OP’s link, I stopped reading the article. Saying Empire was banally directed and that John Williams’ scores are bad basically gives you the prefect picture of the character writing this article in the first place, a moron with no idea about film making or music, who has absolutely no business being a critic of either.

I don’t necessarily agree with what he wrote, but IIRC what he was trying to say is that the original Star Wars was bold in its direction, while TESB and ROTJ were more traditional in their style. He didn’t say William’s scores are bad, but that they want to drag the viewer into the movie “by force”, to get them emotionally involved and close to the characters, something he doesn’t like. I think he means, for example, the way the score is used during the Death Star assault.

I think you can discount whatever he was trying to say if you read the whole article.