Fall to the Dark Side? — Page 2

Breaking Bad.

Sometimes, I imagine Aaron Paul (Jesse) as young Anakin Skywalker.

"It turns out that your thread here is only mostly dead!"

But yeah, as long as this is being debated again, I'll explain the idea I originally posted here (Post 4)

Anakin's turn should not have happened slowly as people have suggested. It should have been fast, for Luke's near-turn to the Dark Side was fast. It is important that we as the audience not know precisely how Anakin falls only when Luke does, so that we can identify with Luke in the OT and share his fear of the unknown.

The path to Anakin's fall should be subtle, so subtle for the audience watching the prequels that they would at first think it impossible for Anakin to have fallen. It's all in the framing of the story. In Episode 4, Luke displays grief and rage at the loss of his relatives and Obi-wan. We should sympathize with this, not be fearful lest Luke turn to the Dark Side. So the dangers of the Dark side should not be revealed until Episode 5. The prequels show only the light side of the Force, a power without a downside. Naturally the audience would then sympathize with Anakin as he feels anger and as he quests for more power. He has power by Episode 3, yet Obi-wan has failed to sufficiently warn him about the power of the Dark Side, lest it interfere with his development. Anakin's powers are sorely needed after all, and there is no time to do things the "right" way. So Obi-wan fails as a teacher.

Finally Anakin confronts Palpatine at the end of Episode 3, knowing full well that the new Emperor is entirely evil. The Emperor however plays on Anakin's fears, and in his domain of evil, he forces Anakin to fight his own worst enemy, as Luke fought his manifestation of Vader in the cave on Dagobah. This emanation is the sum total of Anakin's fears, and it overwhelms him. The Emperor claims that this mysterious cloaked warrior is the pupil that Obi-wan failed to fully train, and from a certain point of view, this is true. The Emperor gives this figure the most evil sounding name he can think of: Darth Vader, so as to play on Anakin's fears. Finally, as Episode 3 closes, we see a cloaked figure step out from the Emperor's palace, his face darkened and mysterious. We assume that it is Obi-wan's secret apprentice, now revealed as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. It is only in Episode 5 that we have the information to understand the truth, for when Luke fights Vader on Dagobah, we realize the illusion of Episode 3 for what it is. The Emperor does not try and pull the same trick on Luke because he knows that Luke has already fought most of his inner demons, and only by goading him to anger will they succeed in turning him.

NeverarGreat said:

Anakin's turn should not have happened slowly as people have suggested. It should have been fast, for Luke's near-turn to the Dark Side was fast.

I don't think Luke's turn had long term effects.  It was a blip- something that could have been the first step down a long road, or just that single step.  I laid out my thoughts on this in another thread: here. 

For Vader, this guy serves the Dark Side for 20+ years.  He's pretty devoted to it.  It's not something that happens when he gets mad, it's not something that happens when he loses control.  It's his lifestyle.  He's totally bought into it.  He's trying to bring others into it.  He's not accidentally straying into something- he's converted.

Converted to what, exactly?  I think that has to be backed up with something other than a single moment that strays from that other thing he's previously converted to.

It is important that we as the audience not know precisely how Anakin falls only when Luke does, so that we can identify with Luke in the OT and share his fear of the unknown.

I think I will disagree with this here.  The OT is the story of how Luke didn't turn to the Dark Side.  If the PT is a story of how Anakin mysteriously turns to the Dark Side, but we are not told precisely how, I think you blew your chance to show something new.

The path to Anakin's fall should be subtle, so subtle for the audience watching the prequels that they would at first think it impossible for Anakin to have fallen. It's all in the framing of the story. In Episode 4, Luke displays grief and rage at the loss of his relatives and Obi-wan. We should sympathize with this, not be fearful lest Luke turn to the Dark Side.

I think you're spot on here, but you come away with a different conclusion than I do.  I think it should be subtle, as you say, as with Anakin as it was with Luke.  No one watching Luke thinks he will turn bad.  Part of that is our hope and our trust in the storytellers that they wouldn't do that to us.  Even when he uses the Dark Side to defeat Vader, we're still not terribly worried about him.

If Anakin's fall is subtle, but unclear as you suggest... then we will think that his fall is a requirement of the narrative rather than something driven by the character himself. 

But if Anakin's fall is to a) be believable b) be tragic c) be a warning to all other would be heroes, then I think we need to understand it.  And, as you said, if it starts with anger and sadness and the feelings of loss that any warm blooded human would experience, then we can start to understand it.  I think most of RotJ's audience turns to the Dark Side with Luke in that scene.  And it's only when the bombastic music dies down and the look on Luke's face tells us that he's not so sure he's done a good thing (the gloating Emperor telling him that he's lost doesn't hurt).

It's not when Luke goes into an unknown path that we fear for his immortal soul.  But when we see him retread the steps his father took, though he thinks that this time it will be different, that we fear for him.  And since we know that this story has already betrayed us- the hero has become the villain, then we fear for Luke.

So the dangers of the Dark side should not be revealed until Episode 5. The prequels show only the light side of the Force, a power without a downside.

My above comments should already show my disagreement here.  However I wanted to say that Luke gets an education from Yoda (moreso than Ben) in the Light Side and avoiding the seductive ways of the Dark Side.  As presented by Yoda, I think his argument seems ironclad.  But it's pretty much the only side of the argument you hear in the OT.  I think that Episode 2 of the PT should have shown a similar tutelage, but by a "Yoda-of-the-Dark-Side".  Someone who can present their argument in similarly convincing terms.  That person isn't going to say "Being evil is pretty great, eh?"  But someone (Anakin and the Audience) that thought that the matter was pretty simple will find that it isn't quite so, and that maybe their decision hasn't totally been made yet.

A "Power Without a Downside" seems to be the opposite of what makes sense for a compelling story about Anakin's fall that could possibly cast narrative shadows onto Luke.

Anakin's powers are sorely needed after all, and there is no time to do things the "right" way.

Finally Anakin confronts Palpatine at the end of Episode 3, knowing full well that the new Emperor is entirely evil.

I think you're right about this again.  Just like my other thoughts about Luke mentioned above, I see that Anakin would use the Dark Side to try to accomplish his original, Light Side mission.  To win the War and bring Peace to the Galaxy.  He thinks it's better to the right things, even if it means tapping into Dark powers... but we learn that this is ultimately a mistake.

The Emperor however plays on Anakin's fears, and in his domain of evil, he forces Anakin to fight his own worst enemy, as Luke fought his manifestation of Vader in the cave on Dagobah. This emanation is the sum total of Anakin's fears, and it overwhelms him. The Emperor claims that this mysterious cloaked warrior is the pupil that Obi-wan failed to fully train, and from a certain point of view, this is true. The Emperor gives this figure the most evil sounding name he can think of: Darth Vader, so as to play on Anakin's fears. Finally, as Episode 3 closes, we see a cloaked figure step out from the Emperor's palace, his face darkened and mysterious. We assume that it is Obi-wan's secret apprentice, now revealed as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. It is only in Episode 5 that we have the information to understand the truth, for when Luke fights Vader on Dagobah, we realize the illusion of Episode 3 for what it is. The Emperor does not try and pull the same trick on Luke because he knows that Luke has already fought most of his inner demons, and only by goading him to anger will they succeed in turning him.

Interesting approach to the ending.  Is the 2nd apprentice fully developed prior to this point?  Does he also turn to the Dark Side prior to this moment?  Seeing how the apprentice that Anakin thinks he is fighting is an apparition of Palpatine's devising... what actually happens to the 2nd apprentice.  How do you ensure that the audience assumes it is the 2nd apprentice and not a fallen Anakin? 

Or, as you said, you make it so the audience never suspects Anakin's fall and therefore the only dark figure that could surive the fight is the dark figure that entered the fight?

As I've thought about this, I think one possible solution is to end Episode 2 roughly where Return of the Jedi could have ended.  Anakin uses the Dark Side to defeat the big bad, who told him (along with Obiwan) that using the Dark Side powers would be his own end.  Anakin comes out of this experience feeling pretty good, like either the Dark Side isn't to be feared as much as he was told, or that he is specially invulnerable to its charms.

Then comes episode 3.  An emboldened Anakin single-handedly starts to win the War, making a name for himself.  He is fighting fire with fire, and his singular goal is to find the leader of the evil army and take him out.  Anakin's the most powerful Jedi ever (or so it would seem) and yet when he finally catches up to this Palpatine guy, he is smacked down.  He is shown that there is more that he can learn. 

And this Palpatine guy isn't so bad afterall- he uses the Dark Side... but so does Anakin.  Anakin uses it to push forward the cause of peace... but that's what Palpatine claims to use it for as well.  Only by joining forces can they stop the war.  Only by ensuring that all forces are joined together can they bring peace to the galaxy. 

The Dark Jedi don't want to kill the Jedi... they want to unite with them to bring peace to the universe.  The Jedi are the bloodthirsty ones who can't abide the Dark Jedi and want to kill them.  The Dark Jedi don't abstain from using the Light Side of the Force- they use the Whole Force...  The Jedi however, are judgemental and divisive and shun the very power that would bring about their so-called goal of "peace and prosperity". 

Why not use the tools that fate has put in your hands to bring to pass the righteous desires of your heart.  To bring peace?  If a planet with a strong military goes to war with a smaller military, don't they use their advantage to bring a swifter, more merciful, end to the conflict.  What if their military was so big as to completely dissuade armed conflict in the first place?  Would it make sense to leave most of their arms at home? 

And so on.  Something that can convert a hero like Anakin to be the villain for 20 years until his kid shows up and shows a better way.

Your points are good, and probably more in keeping with the original intent of the story than mine. Obi-wan does say that Anakin was seduced to the dark side, and not forcibly turned in a moment of weakness. It is true as you say that Anakin is very devoted to the Dark Side, I just don't think we need to see that level of devotion twenty years earlier in the prequels. Notice how much darker Vader became between ANH and ESB. He went from simply dealing mercilessly with his enemies to destroying whoever stood in his way, be it friend or foe. It seems to me that if his character could change that much in a few years, tracking that progression back twenty years would show a character who was only on the first steps of his dark journey. However I do think it's important to show that first step, albeit in a way that only becomes clear once the entire saga unfolds.

I imagine the Jedi during the prequels as the last of a noble order, almost gone and far past their days of glory. They are much like the samurai, willing to die rather than compromise their values, which leads to the Yoda-like ideas that one step onto the dark path is enough to condemn an entire lifetime of good works. It's also like Lancelot from The Once and Future King. He has the power to work miracles, but when he besmirches his honor he knows in his heart that it is not his power but the grace of God that allows him to do miracles; he is unworthy of the honor, and this leads him deeper into darkness. Likewise, Anakin must choose whether to admit that his power is tainted, or admit that the Jedi were wrong about the Force. The disconnect is too much for him, and he breaks from the order under pressure of the Emperor. Granted, this should not be stated in such obvious terms, but it's the feeling I'm going for.

Obi-wan is of this old viewpoint, yet in training Anakin he has neglected to tell him all that he should about the Dark Side, for he realizes the absurdity of asking someone to trust their feelings while also making them mistrust these same feelings. In his hubris he believes that he can do better than Yoda and make a better Jedi than he ever was. This leads to Anakin wishing to face the evil Emperor and Obi-wan having second thoughts about his new training method. Obi-wan tries to dissuade Anakin from confronting the Emperor, but Anakin is adamant. It's like the scene from ROTJ where Luke is trying to get Vader to come away with him, and could go something like this:

Obi-wan: "Anakin, please, don't do this."

Anakin: "Before today, I've believed your counsel to be wise. What do you suggest I do?"

Obi-wan: "It doesn't have to end here, like this...come with me..."

Anakin: "Into exile? You have always told me to confront my enemies. Do you think I'm unready?"

Obi-wan: "Anakin, there are things you don't know..."

Anakin: "About the Force?"

Obi-wan: "I...I've failed...as a teacher. I haven't been honest with you."

Anakin: "Don't fear for me, Obi-wan. You've been a good teacher, and a good friend. I know I will always be a student in your eyes, but I am ready. Whatever happens will be my own destiny."

Obi-wan: "May the Force be with you Anakin."

This is the final scene between the two of them, and when Anakin faces the Emperor, the Emperor plays off of Anakin's fears and conjures a story of Obi-wan's previous apprentice:

Palpatine: "Your thoughts betray you, Anakin. Obi-wan didn't tell you about his greatest failure."

Anakin: "What do you know about Obi-wan?"

Palpatine: "In his arrogance, he twisted the teachings of the Jedi to his own devices, breaking every rule of that sacred order to produce a living weapon."

Anakin: "You're lying. Obi-wan has always upheld the Jedi code."

Palpatine: "What do you know of the Jedi code? Yet I see you require proof. Allow me to introduce you to the apprentice Obi-wan doesn't want you to see."

(A dark figure emerges from the shadows of the throne room. The figure activates his lightsaber and attacks Anakin, and they duel, matching themselves stroke for stroke)

Palpatine: "You can see your master's training in him, can you not? Is it clear to you now? You have been lied to, Anakin."

(The figure attacks relentlessly)

Palpatine: "Which of you is the stronger, I wonder? Obi-wan's failure, or his success?"

(The dark figure gains the upper hand)

Palpatine: "I sense fear in you, Anakin. My apprentice, Darth Vader, is beyond fear. He is better than that. Better than you."

(Anakin becomes angry, drives the figure back)

Palpatine: "Good, you have some aggression yet. It may save you."

(Anakin realizes what he has done)

Anakin: "No...I can't..."

(Anakin backs off, realizes that he cannot defeat Vader. He deactivates his lightsaber.)

Anakin: "I am a Jedi. A Jedi. You cannot take that from me."

Palpatine: "So Anakin Skywalker will not serve me?"

(Anakin says nothing)

Palpatine: "So you would die, rather than betray your code? Always the Jedi, even in death. So be it. Henceforth, Vader shall be my servant."

(the dark figure moves in for the kill. He swings his lightsaber and the scene ends)

Obviously Obi-wan has no other apprentice, and Vader is simply an apparition such as in the Dark Side cave. The final scene, which may be weeks or even months later, probably after aggressive mental and physical torture at the hands of the Emperor, Anakin emerges as the cloaked figure of Darth Vader. The torture wouldn't be shown or even implied, but it would be assumed that Vader was a real apprentice who won the fight and serves the Emperor loyally.

It could work.  It plays better in your synopsis than I thought it would given your summary earlier.

Like many people said, the way Episode 3 handled his fall was rushed. It's kind of surprising because when I looked at Clone Wars media (comics, both 2003 and 2008 cartoons, and the novels), I thought Anakin was more prone to anger despite of his good heart and loyalty to the Republic. 

I think it would have been better to have Anakin be corrupted by war. As the Clone Wars, he would make controversial choices that lead to his fall to the Dark Side. It's much like how I assumed about the fall of the Jedi Revan from the KotOR games.

Years before the game, Jedi Knights Revan and Malak broke away from the Order to fight the Mandalorians who were attacking the Republic. With their fellow Jedi, Revan and Malak defeated the Mandalorians and saved the Republic.

But there were small hints of Revan's fall. In KotOR 2, his old mentor and one of your companions, Kreia, mentions that the Mandalorian Wars changed Revan to the point he despised weakness. His fall would be complete after the Mandalorian Wars, when he ventured into the Unknown Regions.

Or you could follow the Prequels' idea of having Anakin gaining power to protect his loved ones. However, use a different method. Have Anakin believe he can conquer the Dark Side and let his arrogance grow until he finally falls completely. It can be done like this:

• As the war rages on, Anakin grow weary of battle and wants to end the war. He believes the Jedi ways aren't enough as the Clone Wars continue and seeks the knowledge of the Sith. Obi-Wan and the other Jedi forbid his research, but Palpatine takes advantage of this and feeds Anakin small snippets of Sith history that twist the young Jedi's mind until he sees the Jedi as enemies.
• Or Padme's nearly killed and a paranoid Anakin seeks Palpatine's help to protect her. Palpatine gives Anakin Sith knowledge, turning him to the Dark Side.

You could also base Anakin's fall on his own hubris and jealous. In Shakespeare's tragedies of Othello and Macbeth, the titular characters are good men at first but small whispers of doubts and lies from someone they know causes mistrust and brings their downfall. Do something similar with Anakin's fall as Palpatine whispers lies into his ear. 

...But those are just my ideas.