Episode VIII : The Last Jedi - Discussion * SPOILER THREAD * — Page 145

Collipso said:

yotsuya said:

Collipso said:

DominicCobb said:

Lucas changed his own rules with each new movie he made. If new creators aren’t allowed to expand our understanding of the universe as Lucas did, why even make new films?

exactly. they should never have made new films period.

Lucas had decided to do treatments for the sequels so this trilogy is his doing even if he isn’t doing more than advise them. Abrams and Kasdan met with Lucas to go over what and was not possible with the force so if you don’t like the result, I suggest you take up with GL himself. He okayed that aspect of what they had planned.

what does this have to do with what i said? i said the ST should never have been made since its idea was abandoned in the 80s, not that it should’ve been made by Lucas.

and we can’t be sure of his involvement in the making of the ST, nothing has been confirmed. some sources say that TFA was somewhat inspired by his treatments but he claimed right after (or right before) TFA’s release that JJ and friends had thrown his ideas in the trash can, so who knows.

Disney threw out the idea of using Lucas’s treatments before JJ signed on. Kathleen Kennedy has said they used his treatments as a starting point and then changed things. Some concept art was done on his treatments and some has been released. Ach-To was his idea and so was the female student, though he would have had her be younger (one reason given that Disney threw it out). Abrams has been quoted that he (and I think Kasdan) quized Lucas on what was possible or not. A new report says Lucas helped go over the story/script before it was finished. But Lucas did the treatments right before the sale to sweeten the deal and Disney bought it and decided to the the ST because of Lucas. So he is at fault for us getting the ST and he did the treatment that the ST is somewhat based on.

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

Exactly.

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

Nice point

Mrebo said:

DominicCobb said:

They’re not in line with rules that people have established based on the previous 6, sure. But there isn’t anything that directly contradicts with what’s actually in the films. It’s only rewriting our perceptions of the universe, not the films themselves.

It’s basic good storytelling to bring the audience along and not suddenly and radically alter the rules. It’s not that audience has established rules but rather took them from the previous material.

No doubt in additional stories various rules are amended or expanded upon. But it’s important to bring the audience along. If the accepted rules change significantly with no good reason, you risk losing the audience.

Thus with Rey many of us are thinking: this is radically inconsistent with what we saw and liked in previous movies.

Some, like me, were hoping for some great reason to appear in E8. Late in TLJ, Snoke basically tells us the reason is the Force forces itself upon people in search of some kind of balance. Even if we choose to believe the Snokester, many of us think that’s lame.

I didn’t like Anakin as a vergence because midichlorians either or the prophecy stuff. All that is something like a precedent for Rey. Introduced that way, I bet more people would have been on board. And recognizing that, I can honestly say that’s still lame.

Many don’t think the rules were altered radically. Most probably don’t think the rules were altered at all. I remember I saw TFA with a big group of people, mostly casual fans. I was the only one who had a problem with Rey performing the mind trick. They either didn’t notice the inconsistency or didn’t care. Even without the anecdote, I’d guess most of the casual audience isn’t too concerned with the minutiae of who can do what force powers when.

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

i personally don’t think that being a jedi means being good at using the force and that alone. but it is true that the way it’s presented in the original 6 movies, one has to be really in line with the jedi ways if one wants to have good control over the force. or, of course, the quick and easy and seductive dark side path. rey’s skills didn’t progress like that. in fact they progressed without her making any sort of effort or sacrifice or such which feels reeeeally weird to me and to some, and to us that’s the problem here (i think).

it would be a pretty terrible explanation too.

DominicCobb said:

Jay said:

Mocata said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

Rey isn’t a Jedi yet.

Which begs the question what does Rey miss, that would prevent her from being called a Jedi? She has pretty much all the skills. She defeated Kylo Ren, resisted Snoke, and rejected Kylo Ren’s offer. What else is left for her to do, outside of defeating Kylo Ren again?

Being a Jedi is about more than just having all the skillz (which there’s no indication she has anyway). She defeated Kylo in a moment of weakness for him (and the next time she tried to face him she never even got to ignite her saber). She did not resist Snoke. And rejecting a single offer towards the dark side doesn’t mean that you’ll never face temptation again. Luke rejected Vader’s offer in ESB, don’t forget.

Sure, but let’s also not forget, that Luke did not have the level of control Rey has at the end of TESB. Luke still struggled to lift a few rocks, and got handed his *** by Vader. Rey came out victorious by comparison, and even got to rescue the rebels in the end.

That doesn’t make her a Jedi.

Right.

Being a Jedi was never about having level 90 flip ability and knowing how to dismember a dude in a few seconds. Power levels and midichlorians are PT nonsense. “My powers have doubled since we last met” says Anakin. WHAT. What does that even mean. The whole trilogy is gibberish. Now take ROTJ and what does Luke really do to become a Jedi Knight? He fights yet again, and he actually only beats Vader in combat when anger and rage fuel his body. Just like Vader said in ESB. But becoming a Jedi has nothing to do with sweet moves and fighting abilities. Luke goes beyond that and throws down the saber. It’s a spiritual state of mind, like a touch of Zen. People argue over and over about ridiculous things like how can Rey do this or that. Who even cares. It’s irrelevant.

After Rey’s childhood, there’s nothing zen about her. I can’t buy the notion that a week’s worth of stress focused her mind and turned the coal into a diamond. Show me a monk who achieves enlightenment in a week.

Whether you define the scope of what it means to be a Jedi as flipping around and floating rocks or a spiritual, zen-like state of mind, neither should be possible to the extent Rey is capable within a few days.

But again, Rey’s not a Jedi yet. That’s the whole point being made. Whether or not she’s got the high level powers already, she hasn’t yet reached that zen point that Luke does at the end of ROTJ.

Yes, but like I said before, those high power levels were previously only attainable in two ways, the quick and easy path, where you lose your soul, or reaching a zen point. There’s a reason Luke shouldn’t have faced Vader in TESB. He wasn’t at the zen point yet, and so he also didn’t have the high power level to defeat him. Only a fully trained Jedi with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. Luke’s arc culminates in ROTJ with him reaching those high power levels, facing Vader and the Emperor, whilst believing Vader can be turned, ultimately leading to Luke rejecting the dark side, and he thus has the right to call himself a Jedi. Rey’s arc culminates in TLJ with her reaching those high power levels, facing Kylo and the Snoke, whilst believing Kylo can be turned, ultimately leading to Rey rejecting the dark side, and she isn’t a Jedi apparently. The confrontation in Snoke’s throne room delibirately echos ROTJ with characters expressing the same sentiments, and in some cases the same dialogue. Whilst Rey may have failed to redeem Ben Solo, she otherwise passed the same test, that Luke did in ROTJ, that made him worthy of being a Jedi. The irony here is that the same arguments, that were used to argue against Rey’s high power levels, which are rejected by TLJ fans, are now being used to argue she cannot be a Jedi, because that’s apparently a bridge too far. Well I say, if she can reach those high power levels in days, pass the test of facing up to evil, and reject the apple from the tree, telling the devil to stuff it, she can call herself a Jedi.

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Well, I disagree. What demons does she have to overcome either literally or figuratively, that she hasn’t already? How can she grow? Luke passed on the batton to her showing none of a master’s reservations, being confident she will become the next Jedi. Even Yoda makes a statement that echos the one he made to Luke in ROTJ, where he says there’s nothing in the tree, that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess, which should be taken both literally, and figuratively, I believe. TLJ’s ending feels more like the conclusion of a trilogy to many for a reason, and this is examplified by the way Rey is put on a pedestal having passed her trials, and saved the day.

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

DrDre said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument (any argument) that in this case is on incredibly shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close). Like Luke in ESB, she ran in unprepared and gave Snoke everything he wanted. The only reason she came out alive was because Kylo’s actions, which, unlike ROTJ, weren’t because of the hero’s pleading (which didn’t work in this case).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Well, I disagree. What demons does she have to overcome either literally or figuratively, that she hasn’t already? How can she grow? Luke passed on the batton to her showing none of a master’s reservations, being confident she will become the next Jedi. Even Yoda makes a statement that echos the one he made to Luke in ROTJ, where he says there’s nothing in the tree, that the girl Rey doesn’t already possess, which should be taken both literally, and figuratively, I believe. TLJ’s ending feels more like the conclusion of a trilogy for a reason, and this is examplified by the way Rey is put on a pedestal having passed her trials, and saved the day.

One of the things I appreciate most about TLJ is its ability to stand on its own. It’s actually superior to ESB in this regard. Things like Yoda’s statements aren’t exclusively conclusive, they just suggest that she has the tools she needs. Whether or not she can manifest that potential is what will have to be seen. Think about the end of the original SW. The implications are all there that Han will join the rebellion and Luke will be a Jedi. There’s a conclusiveness there, but it doesn’t preclude us from seeing Luke become a Jedi, and seeing Han still have to settle his debt with Jabba (not a perfect comparison, but I hope you get me).

I can think of many ways that Rey can grow. There’s a lot of options for JJ and co. If it were up to me, she’d continue where she left off, learning to finally forge her own path, and facing the ultimate challenge of which side that path will end up. But that’s just my idea. I’ll be happy with anything JJ creates as long as it’s in line with her character as previously portrayed.

DominicCobb said:

NeverarGreat said:

DominicCobb said:

People seem to think Rey’s journey is done and over with after TLJ, which is just absurd. The idea that Rey’s rejection of Kylo has more in common with Luke’s actions in ROTJ over ESB is just a silly reach for an argument that is on shaky ground. Rey conquered neither Snoke or Kylo (not even close).

No need to go further in depth than that, I’ve said it all before.

Not even close? With Snoke dead and all of Kylo’s training allowing him to almost equal Rey, who recovers from their battle long before him?

Rey was dead if not for Kylo. She had no way out. Even though Kylo claims that the girl killed Snoke, this is not actually true if you watch the whole film.

I’m not sure why recovering faster from a shockwave is indicative of ability, but okay.

Truly things look grim for our hero in the darkest chapter of this trilogy. How can she ever hope to defeat someone whom she always seems to beat and his army of tactical imbeciles led by a man so stupid that he fell for a prank phone call?

I am on the edge of my seat.

If you watch the films, she actually only beat him once, believe it or not, when he was severely injured. I could have sworn this has been explained before on this site but I could be wrong.

I suppose you could probably claim most cinematic villains are imbeciles. If any Star Wars villains were smart, the heroes would get nowhere. And yet somehow non-pedantic viewers have been able to enjoy a film in which the bad guys squander every chance to quash a rebellion. And they’ve now made 9 additional films in that franchise! Crazy, I know.

Luke would have been dead at the hands of the Emperor, if not for Vader. I guess someone should revoke his Jedi membership card. Rey is the catalyst for Ben’s actions, even if he makes the wrong decision in the end. The sequence plays out just like ROTJ, except for Rey rejecting Kylo rather than Palpatine, and they have a confrontation involving a lightsaber, where neither comes out on top, showing she is Kylo’s equal in the light, as Snoke claimed she was. Kylo Ren who according to Snoke was about to complete his training becoming the anti-Jedi (Sith cough). If she is his equal in the light according to RJ, then what would that logically make her? That’s right, a Jedi.